I'm back.

[gwhitf]

Will Phase allow you to answer any of these questions?

Big Cooter

I have this visual scene inside my head right now. It's like a Medium Format Town Hall Meeting Debate, similar to the one last week that Tom Brokaw hosted. We're all sitting around a circular set of bleachers, inside that big soundstage room at Pier 59 Studios. In the center of the room is that Christian guy from Hasselblad, and that Ulf guy from Phase, and Yair from Leaf, and Thierry from Sinar. The carpet is red, (to signify bloodletting in the MF marketplace). The carpet is blue, to signify the color of Phase One's face, for purposely holding up the release of CaptureOne 4.

The debate is moderated by Reichmann. In the bleachers are all pro photographers who are "undecided" at this point in the election of which camera system they will buy. As an usher hands a portable microphone to one of the photographers in the audience who's about to ask the next question, Reichmann announces, in that solemn dry tone: "Our next question, directed to the Phase One candidate, comes from man named Big Cooter, from New York City...."

[jecxz]

Steve helped me out once (and I didn't even buy from him) and I have not forgotten--thanks Steve! He would be an asset to any company. Good luck with PhaseOne.

[Steve Hendrix]

Bottom line is, if Hasselblad continues down this path and keeps prices low the other makers will have to respond with lowering service, or dealer margins, or god forbid, actually selling their systems in traditional camera stores to increase shelf space.

Shelf space, real or virtual makes all the difference in the world.  Ask any manufacturer of any consumer product what they desire most and it is always increased shelf space at a retail level.

The world is changing in many ways, the photographic industry has to keep up.  I have this feeling that in two years the way you buy a professional digital camera system will be much different than you do today.

Hasselblad seems to recognize this, obviously Canon and Nikon have always known that price and ease of purchase is the key.

So Steve, since your the forum Point Man for Phase how about a few questions;

Does Phase plan on cutting their prices to match Hasselblad?

Does Phase have a system for offering their cameras in more stores?

Does Phase have a real timeline on when new lenses and accessories will be produced and if so will they live to it or will it be like wi-fi and V4.5 pro, which is years late?

Does Phase plan on offering direct customer support?

What is the plan for the Upgradable P65+.  Is it software upgrades, hardware upgrades or both and if so, when, how much?

What is the real truth on Phase/Mamiya/Phamiya lenses.  Will they offer leica, Russian tilt shift glass, new Mamiya lenses with leaf shutters and if they plan on it, how soon, how much?

Will Phase allow you to answer any of these questions?


Big Cooter

Big Cooter

I'll try and answer some of this. But I will have to get back to you on some.

Does Phase plan on cutting their prices to match Hasselblad?
It's clear Hasselblad is trying to accelerate the issue for their competitors and force them to leave the market by daring them to match price. It's already a crowded market for four players. Phase One will do whatever we think is best for us to remain successful. Substantially dropping prices that dramatically is a game changer for any company. Distribution models change and unit sales must increase by a significant factor. Yes shelf space is nice but for premium priced products - and despite the price reduction these are still very expensive items - traditional specialized dealers have been more effective at selling these products, not just supporting them. They don't sell well sitting on a shelf waiting for someone to come in and ask to spend $25,000. This is a part of what I see as the gamble Hasselblad has taken. So, will we respond? Certainly. How will we respond? We'll see. Most of our products are still priced competitively compared to Hasselblad with the primary exception of the 39MP product. And while legacy upgrade pricing has become less desirable from everyone in recent years, Phase One still maintains at least a "difference in price upgrade" for recent purchasers when new product is announced.  For customers with longer buying cycles this is not so much of an issue but for those who want the latest and the greatest it is. Will Hasselblad offer this or will you be out of luck?

Does Phase have a system for offering their cameras in more stores?
Offering products at these prices has not historically been shown to be effective in terms of sales or support from general camera stores. But as the market changes we will certainly look at anything that can prove effective for us and beneficial for end users.

Does Phase have a real timeline on when new lenses and accessories will be produced and if so will they live to it or will it be like wi-fi and V4.5 pro, which is years late?
I'll try and get some eta information on lenses. Software and lens development are two extremely difficult processes which can be derailed easily. Even big Canon or Nikon take years to develop lenses and I've heard time and again the wish that Canon would come out with better lenses. So, it's not an issue specific to Phase One. Before the Phase/Mamiya alliance Mamiya took years to come out with the 28mm. We're part of this process now with new digital lenses like the f2.8/45D and the 45-90D Zoom coming as well as Leaf Shutters but it will take time. Since we're in the stages of putting together a very versatile and well rounded system with Mamiya we want to let people know what we have planned, but I think we err on making things seem more on the verge than they are. That said the 80mm Leaf Shutter lens should ship before end of year and the new Vertical Grip sometime first quarter. We have actually shipped new lenses this year including the 150mm/2.8. It's challenging to produce 4, 5, 6 lenses and have them all ready at the same time. We're trying.

Does Phase plan on offering direct customer support?
I will have to answer this more thoroughly at a later time. For now, dealers remain the primary support vehicle. Having the dealer involved as the primary support mechanism I believe is very important. While Phase One internal technical support is highly knowledgeable about Phase One, the dealers provide a more real world context, particularly with different camera/lens configurations. Have you had an issue where you felt you were not getting a resolution from the dealer, tried to contact Phase One and were unable to?

What is the plan for the Upgradable P65+.  Is it software upgrades, hardware upgrades or both and if so, when, how much?
I believe the P65+ upgradeability refers to our ability to tweak the sensor, enabling various enhancements. I do not yet have details on the specifics but with the P65+ launching this week in the USA I will have a better sense of that shortly.

What is the real truth on Phase/Mamiya/Phamiya lenses.  Will they offer leica, Russian tilt shift glass, new Mamiya lenses with leaf shutters and if they plan on it, how soon, how much?
The Leica relationship I cannot answer yet. It is possible details are still being worked out. I'm pretty excited about the potential of what it means, but I do not yet have details that can propel the story forward. With regard to Mamiya I can say that the relationship continues to move closer just as it appears to be doing. As I mentioned, the 80mm should ship before end of year. I'll try and get details on what is to follow and when. The Hartblei thing - I will say this about the pricing. To enable us to offer it, it is priced where it needs to be. Without our involvement, I think the Hartblie situation would not have a future. And there was a cost involved in us allowing that to happen. I'm not so sure about these being "funky" old glass either. I think it is quite possible that there are definite consistency issues with the batches. Has anyone here ever compared numerous Canon lenses side by side? I have and I've seen differences. That is pretty common knowledge. If it can happen with Canon, why not Hartblei? Does this mean there are Hartblei razor sharp jewels waiting for you to find the right one? Umm, no but I took part in a customer demo with our version of the 45mm t/s one week ago and the results were good (compared with a Hasselblad 40mm and 50mm CF lens). And whatever we are doing - improving the coatings, adjusting optical positioning, etc certainly can have an effect on (perceived) sharpness, contrast, etc, especially on "top of the crop" samples.

Will Phase allow you to answer any of these questions?
Yes. Otherwise what's the point?

I'll try and get more (accurate) information out as soon as I can.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One

[Guy Mancuso]

Thanks Steve. I was one of the first to get the new 150mm 2.8 D lenses and it is stellar, just waiting on the new 45mm 2.8 D when that comes to market. Any word on it's time frame and US costs by chance.

[bcooter]

I'll try and get more (accurate) information out as soon as I can.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One

Steve,

I appreciate your honest answers.  Thanks, though out of the 6 questions I asked, the first 5 we're answered with essentially "to be determined at a later date."

Phase may allow you to shoot back,  but didn't give you any bullets.

This is the major problem with medium format.  A lot of early announcements, then a lot of soon to be explained announcements, but nothing about today.

I'm not a fanboy of Hasselblad, but most of what they are selling today can be bought today and the pricing is very clear.

As a side note. With all of the changes coming in medium format and I think we all know that with the current economy and Hasselblad's aggressive moves, the Leica that already is entering a crowded market and rumors of a large Nikon,  there will be big changes.  I think anyone that contemplates a new medium format purchase will want these questions answered sooner rather than later.

After all, nobody wants to drop $39,000 on a back or camera system that get's lowered by 10 thousand in a month.

In regards to the current dealer system, they're ok, though in the case of Phase One, for anyone that is savvy about their equipment going to a dealer doesn't do anything but put another layer between the end user and the maker and we all know it's the maker that will be responsible for the fix if there is a problem.

But to really asses how well this system works, I suggest hiring one of those consumer advocate reporters that has a little video camera hidden in their glasses or purse and let them record the complete selling and servicing process for every major specialty medium format dealer in every major market.

I think all the makers would learn a great deal.

Big Cooter

[EricWHiss]

Steve,
I have another question for Phase you might be able to answer.  What's with the different warrantees - classic and whatever the other one is called?   And why should a buyer have to pay an extra $3k to get the manufacturer to stand up to a product that already costs $20k or more?  It's not a fair analogy but when you buy a car they are always trying to upsell you some warrantee which from what I have read is always a bad deal.  So why doesn't phase include a real warrantee with every product?  I realize that for some people the platform change is an important part of the program, but probably its more important just to know that it can be done rather than to pay for it up front before you know you'll need it or not.    
Eric

[Steve Hendrix]

Steve,

I appreciate your honest answers.  Thanks, though out of the 6 questions I asked, the first 5 we're answered with essentially "to be determined at a later date."

Phase may allow you to shoot back,  but didn't give you any bullets.

This is the major problem with medium format.  A lot of early announcements, then a lot of soon to be explained announcements, but nothing about today.

I'm not a fanboy of Hasselblad, but most of what they are selling today can be bought today and the pricing is very clear.

As a side note. With all of the changes coming in medium format and I think we all know that with the current economy and Hasselblad's aggressive moves, the Leica that already is entering a crowded market and rumors of a large Nikon,  there will be big changes.  I think anyone that contemplates a new medium format purchase will want these questions answered sooner rather than later.

After all, nobody wants to drop $39,000 on a back or camera system that get's lowered by 10 thousand in a month.

In regards to the current dealer system, they're ok, though in the case of Phase One, for anyone that is savvy about their equipment going to a dealer doesn't do anything but put another layer between the end user and the maker and we all know it's the maker that will be responsible for the fix if there is a problem.

But to really asses how well this system works, I suggest hiring one of those consumer advocate reporters that has a little video camera hidden in their glasses or purse and let them record the complete selling and servicing process for every major specialty medium format dealer in every major market.

I think all the makers would learn a great deal.

Big Cooter

Well, it is the weekend. If you can wait until maybe Monday or Tuesday, perhaps I can get some more answers. The bullets will come, otherwise there's not much point in me being here.

And believe me, we know very well what the experience is like at every specialty medium format dealer, not to mention every general camera store. The strengths and minuses of each are certainly taken into consideration as part of our distribution equation.

Steve Hendrix
Phase One

[Guy Mancuso]

In regards to the current dealer system, they're ok, though in the case of Phase One, for anyone that is savvy about their equipment going to a dealer doesn't do anything but put another layer between the end user and the maker and we all know it's the maker that will be responsible for the fix if there is a problem.


This is where i completely disagree about the dealer role. I have been down this path with Leica,Kodak, Hassy of old , Nikon and canon and if I was not friends with leica and management there just is no real support besides a retail store that can't do anything for me except buy something else. They don't have the tools or support to help, not there fault that is the setup . But a dealer holding my hand when i drop 30k on a system is what I want. I need a loaner a product a helping hand on software , hardware or anything else it is there at my disposal. Sorry but to put it bluntly I want not to worry about any of that, call my guy and it is done period and move on. I never had this in 35mm and frankly i like someone there for me without begging. I also do not believe for a second and I am living prove of this the fact that there is a layer between me and Phase . They have called me directly and also have sent me things directly and helped without my dealer doing it for them. Since the day i bought my Phase back i have been in contact with Phase and CI and Lance. Sorry guys and girls but I really like this hand holding and i don't want to go to a retail store which BTW I have many that are personal friends too but they can only do so much but after i drop 30 or 40 k i want that support. Maybe it is just me but i don't want to see this system go away. Be it you like it or not there is a place in the market for it and hope Phase , Hassy and others do not get away from this . Also if this happens the internet support that you enjoy here , on my forum and elsewhere will go bye bye. They would not have any vested interest if there not selling or supporting it and worse case no job to boot. The bottom line you want discount shopping the dealer network will go bye bye, it is just that simple. I for one do not want to see that happen, so careful what you wish for. Lower prices is one thing but taking out what is good about MF and the support is another. There has to be a balance. Tell me what retail shop will give you a 30k back to shoot off there shelf when the crap hits the fan. Not many if they only have one demo in the store if that.

[bcooter]

I Lower prices is one thing but taking out what is good about MF and the support is another. There has to be a balance. Tell me what retail shop will give you a 30k back to shoot off there shelf when the crap hits the fan. Not many if they only have one demo in the store if that.

No worries because you presently have the hand holding system.  It's something you find worth paying for.

Not everybody requires this.  All they need is good equipment and a manufacturer that will turn around repairs in a timely manner, so why not have the option.

You go to your specialty store and pay $3,000 more, someone else can go to Samy's or B+H and pay $3,000 less.  What's the harm?

$20,000 for any product should have a good warranty, regardless and shouldn't be an extra charge.


Big Cooter

[Guy Mancuso]

I understand your point but you cannot get a repair done within a couple days .Nikon and canon maybe exceptions to this but no MF at all , and you will need a loaner . Stores do not have loaners . Buy a Leica and repairs can run 2 weeks to 4 months ,I kid you not. Have to remember after 14 days at Samy's or B&H you are on your own. Sure you can buy today from Sean at Camera west a good friend of mine a Hassy 39 system but he may have only one in the store , no loaners to speak of and he would have to call Hassy for a repair so you add that layer in there. Nothing wrong with lower prices I want them too but Pro's need handholding more than discounts without service. I just don't want to see that part of it go away but  pricing among the systems is great and good for us end users.

[James R Russell]

I understand your point but you cannot get a repair done within a couple days .Nikon and canon maybe exceptions to this but no MF at all , and you will need a loaner . Stores do not have loaners . Buy a Leica and repairs can run 2 weeks to 4 months ,I kid you not. Have to remember after 14 days at Samy's or B&H you are on your own. Sure you can buy today from Sean at Camera west a good friend of mine a Hassy 39 system but he may have only one in the store , no loaners to speak of and he would have to call Hassy for a repair so you add that layer in there. Nothing wrong with lower prices I want them too but Pro's need handholding more than discounts without service. I just don't want to see that part of it go away but  pricing among the systems is great and good for us end users.

The thing I don't understand about any discussion in digital capture and more  medium format is any difference of opinion always brings up comparisons to the lowest common denominator.

Yes, I know that Leica has really rotten service.  I've had a lens in there for months specifically for a focus fix.  I also know that CPS and Leaf Of America turn around major repairs in a day and you can speak to them direct,  so which one should a manufacturer aspire to, Leica, Canon, or Leaf?

If someone asks where are the promised lenses from Phase or anyone, the response is about Canon's junky wides?   I don't see what a good or bad Canon lens has to do with Phase promising product and then going mum for 8 months.

For the price I would think Phase would want to be better than Canon, not compare to the worst example canon makes.

Now in regards to dealers, some of the specialty dealers are good but so are the people like Karen at Samy's that will go to great lengths to getting a  fix on your Phase, Leaf, Sinar or Hasselblad.  So will any reputable dealer if your a good customer.

In fact the loaner system for me means nothing as I never go out without a backup anyway, medium format and 35mm.   Also I chose to use a Contax and rarely does anyone have a digital back with a contax mount sitting on the shelf, so the "value added" part is something I won't take advantage of and don't need to pay for.  

I have also seen issues with medium format that range from major to minor and except for a few rare instances the response from dealers or manufacturers is usually that they are working on it and in the end it was up to our studio to find our own fix and workaround.  

Anyway, none of this is that important.  Buy from who you want, spend what you can afford but don't kid yourself into thinking that the dealer or db makers that sells for less won't sell more product, especially if the products have comparable quality.

I wouldn't go as far to say the medium format sales and distribution system is broken but I do believe it's scheduled for a huge shake up.  

The Hasselblad price cut is just a start.



JR

[Dustbak]

In regards to the current dealer system, they're ok, though in the case of Phase One, for anyone that is savvy about their equipment going to a dealer doesn't do anything but put another layer between the end user and the maker and we all know it's the maker that will be responsible for the fix if there is a problem.


This is where i completely disagree about the dealer role. I have been down this path with Leica,Kodak, Hassy of old , Nikon and canon and if I was not friends with leica and management there just is no real support besides a retail store that can't do anything for me except buy something else. They don't have the tools or support to help, not there fault that is the setup . But a dealer holding my hand when i drop 30k on a system is what I want. I need a loaner a product a helping hand on software , hardware or anything else it is there at my disposal. Sorry but to put it bluntly I want not to worry about any of that, call my guy and it is done period and move on. I never had this in 35mm and frankly i like someone there for me without begging. I also do not believe for a second and I am living prove of this the fact that there is a layer between me and Phase . They have called me directly and also have sent me things directly and helped without my dealer doing it for them. Since the day i bought my Phase back i have been in contact with Phase and CI and Lance. Sorry guys and girls but I really like this hand holding and i don't want to go to a retail store which BTW I have many that are personal friends too but they can only do so much but after i drop 30 or 40 k i want that support. Maybe it is just me but i don't want to see this system go away. Be it you like it or not there is a place in the market for it and hope Phase , Hassy and others do not get away from this . Also if this happens the internet support that you enjoy here , on my forum and elsewhere will go bye bye. They would not have any vested interest if there not selling or supporting it and worse case no job to boot. The bottom line you want discount shopping the dealer network will go bye bye, it is just that simple. I for one do not want to see that happen, so careful what you wish for. Lower prices is one thing but taking out what is good about MF and the support is another. There has to be a balance. Tell me what retail shop will give you a 30k back to shoot off there shelf when the crap hits the fan. Not many if they only have one demo in the store if that.

Guy,

Would you be willing to pay for this hand-holding? It looks like it. I would not. I don't need a loaner, I don't need help with software, I don't need all that. I have never needed it and probably never will. Now it is integrated in the pricing structure of the equipment itself so we all pay for it. Do you think it is fair I have to pay for those people that do need/want it?

If I ever would ask for it I would be perfectly willing to pay for it.

I think nobody is asking for the abolishment of the dealer system but please let there be an alternative for those that don't need it with adapted prices. The people that really want handholding can go to the dealers where they do pay more but get handholding.

[Henry Goh]

I think ALL MFDB manufacturers should have order websites like Dell.

Start with a basic choice of Back with 12 months warranty.
Buyer can next add any form of extended warranty for additional $XX
Add loaner when needed $XX
Add choice of camera mount $XXX
Add choice of camera $XXX
Add choice of lens $XXX
Add phone support $XXX
Add on-site support $XXX
Add ....
you get the idea don't you.

That way users of different experience can buy according to his/her needs.

[thsinar]

 , but I doubt I would be the one having the fun at the center stage and at the place of my (our) ceo.

Thierry

.... In the center of the room is that Christian guy from Hasselblad, and that Ulf guy from Phase, and Yair from Leaf, and Thierry from Sinar ...

[gwhitf]

, but I doubt I would be the one having the fun at the center stage and at the place of my (our) ceo.

Hey Thierry,

It wasn't real, it was just a Dream. If it was real, the bleachers would empty out and all the photographers would rush to the center of the stage and have their way -- with Yair, for running those stripped-in fake LCD ads in PDN; with you, for I'm not sure what; with the Christian guy, well, they might spare him because in the end, he hasn't done anything wrong, he just played hardball, (which everyone respects); with Ulf, it would get really ugly -- they'd have him passed over our heads, like some kind of primitive Mosh Pit, and after that, they'd pass him to the center of the room, and force him to smile or tell an actual joke, or show the slightest bit of proof that he's a living breathing human instead of a robot, and if he failed that test, then well, we'd dress him up like a Dentist and then finish him off.

As far as that dealer system, I guess I get it, in the best of times, but let's admit, what it does is add another firm layer of MARKUP to these backs and cameras. My position is: why should ANY product need another layer of dealer support? Either it works out of the box, with proper documentation and manuals, or you send it back for a refund. This dealer system seems to fall back on the position of: "Well, fellows, this stuff is really complicated, and you photographers aren't really that smart, so instead of us taking the financial hit of preparing good documentation and manuals/videos out of our budget, then we're gonna set up this Dealer System, and then mark up the back even further, and YOU are paying for that."

I've owned H1D; P21, P21+, P30, P30+, P45, P45+. I paid full price for each one. I expected them to work without a bunch of error messages and hiccups. For the most part they did, but there were also glaring issues as well, which were, for the most part, met with the classic silence from Phase One. When i complained to my dealer, I'd hear, "Yeah, I know, I know, I hear that from other photographers too", so how the hell does the Dealer System benefit me? If I wanted a paid shoulder to cry on, I'd hire a hooker.

I've never understood, why does not Phase One just open a USA Office? Put it in Manhattan, or Chicago, or wherever, and let that one office be the contact for the entire country. Phase might not know this, but now they'd got this thing called Fedex and UPS Overnight, and it doesn't really matter where the office is located -- you can get something overnight.

As Mr. Russell mentioned, I (or most any pro) could care less about a Loaner Policy. The day I walk into a job with only one body and back is the day I'll hang it up. You walk in prepared, or you're not a pro. What good is a Loaner if the back/body goes down on the first setup of the day? You're screwed, and you're screwed on your OWN DIME; if you want to see "expensive", then try writing the check for a full crew and talent, when your precious camera goes down at 9am. This loaner thing is only for Weekend Warriors, and trust me, that sunset is gonna happen next week as well, so what is the need/urgency for 24 hour loaner?

I know Phase wouldn't want to take on the financial hit of opening a USA office and selling direct, but hey, is that my problem? Because in the end, this Dealer System just ends up costing me more.

It will get interesting, with these Hasselblad discounts, to see if there is continued margin to support the Dealer System.

When I bought my two 1ds2's, and then later two 1ds3's, I simply walked into my local camera store, grabbed the two boxes, signed the receipt, and walked out. Total elapsed time: two minutes. I have never called them for support, and I don't intend to. If I need support, there's also this thing called The Internet and Google.

The medium format dealers are some of the nicest guys in the world, (well, at least the ones in the south). But this is a New Economy, and honestly, it won't be until the first of the year before we know just HOW new it's gonna be. We might have hit bottom, but on the dark side, this just be the tip of the (world) iceberg. It could not be long before $5000, in the form of two 5DII's, seems like the proper investment to not take a bath.

[thsinar]

hi "gwithf" (will never learn it! -   ),

I can only agree with all your are saying and describing. I cannot speak for Phase and their "loaner" policy or dealer system, nor their prices charged for this service(s), only for Sinar.

While you are absolutely right in all you say and the way you describe it, your ideal view of a sales channel (as direct as possible and with as less "layers" as possible), although certainly meeting the expectations of many (probably not the majority), is not the expectation from many others (most probably the majority): there are also numerous customers who really want this service and even expect it (for whatever reason). That's the reality of our daily life, even for me on LL and other forums. And it is not only a question of manuals which are not readable or understandable, or a product which is not working out of the box.

We provide this service, most of the time FOC (even loaners) and with no "added value", except if it is too obviously the customer's mistake. I don't think it is a bad thing, to have such a support from a manufacturer: we have built-up this way a loyal base of customers who know that we are "reachable" and helpful in most of the cases (I know, I will certainly get some answers from some feeling not having been supported, after this!), and we have an almost direct contact to those customers.

Best regards,
Thierry

Hey Thierry,

It wasn't real, it was just a Dream. If it was real, the bleachers would empty out and all the photographers would rush to the center of the stage and have their way -- with Yair, for running those stripped-in fake LCD ads in PDN; with you, for I'm not sure what; with the Christian guy, well, they might spare him because in the end, he hasn't done anything wrong, he just played hardball, (which everyone respects); with Ulf, it would get really ugly -- they'd have him passed over our heads, like some kind of primitive Mosh Pit, and after that, they'd pass him to the center of the room, and force him to smile or tell an actual joke, or show the slightest bit of proof that he's a living breathing human instead of a robot, and if he failed that test, then well, we'd dress him up like a Dentist and then finish him off.

As far as that dealer system, I guess I get it, in the best of times, but let's admit, what it does is add another firm layer of MARKUP to these backs and cameras. My position is: why should ANY product need another layer of dealer support? Either it works out of the box, with proper documentation and manuals, or you send it back for a refund. This dealer system seems to fall back on the position of: "Well, fellows, this stuff is really complicated, and you photographers aren't really that smart, so instead of us taking the financial hit of preparing good documentation and manuals/videos out of our budget, then we're gonna set up this Dealer System, and then mark up the back even further, and YOU are paying for that."

I've owned H1D; P21, P21+, P30, P30+, P45, P45+. I paid full price for each one. I expected them to work without a bunch of error messages and hiccups. For the most part they did, but there were also glaring issues as well, which were, for the most part, met with the classic silence from Phase One. When i complained to my dealer, I'd hear, "Yeah, I know, I know, I hear that from other photographers too", so how the hell does the Dealer System benefit me? If I wanted a paid shoulder to cry on, I'd hire a hooker.

I've never understood, why does not Phase One just open a USA Office? Put it in Manhattan, or Chicago, or wherever, and let that one office be the contact for the entire country. Phase might not know this, but now they'd got this thing called Fedex and UPS Overnight, and it doesn't really matter where the office is located -- you can get something overnight.

As Mr. Russell mentioned, I (or most any pro) could care less about a Loaner Policy. The day I walk into a job with only one body and back is the day I'll hang it up. You walk in prepared, or you're not a pro. What good is a Loaner if the back/body goes down on the first setup of the day? You're screwed, and you're screwed on your OWN DIME. This loaner thing is only for Weekend Warriors, and trust me, that sunset is gonna happen next week as well, so what is the need/urgency for 24 hour loaner?

I know Phase wouldn't want to take on the financial hit of opening a USA office and selling direct, but hey, is that my problem? Because in the end, this Dealer System just ends up costing me more.

It will get interesting, with these Hasselblad discounts, to see if there is continued margin to support the Dealer System.

When I bought my two 1ds2's, and then later two 1ds3's, I simply walked into my local camera store, grabbed the two boxes, signed the receipt, and walked out. Total elapsed time: two minutes. I have never called them for support, and I don't intend to. If I need support, there's also this thing called The Internet and Google.

The medium format dealers are some of the nicest guys in the world, (well, at least the ones in the south). But this is a New Economy, and honestly, it won't be until the first of the year before we know just HOW new it's gonna be.

[Guy Mancuso]

Not so much loaners only . How about trying the thing out before you buy. Most MF folks will let you try it out first with a demo . I tried all three Phase backs before I let someone hand me a invoice. I had a real hard time between the P30 and P25 plus's. B&H and Samy's under the current way of doing business don't really have that available. I'm sorry but before I hand over 30 k i want to try the thing. Under 8 k it does not matter as much to try a Nikon or Canon and I can rent one in 10 minutes . There are no MF systems in this town that i could go try and i am in a big city ( Phoenix). Personally i am not going to risk 30 k on a bad mistake on my end if I don't get the correct one. I do understand both view points on this but I do think the dealer system has more value than we maybe giving credit for. I also can tap as well as everyone else the guys from Sinar , Leaf and Phase right here on this forum and my forum for answers. I have yet to see a Hassy dealer and sign up at my forum for sure and have not seen one here, Not counting Steve. Frankly I still have yet to figure out the Hassy system and much less than I know about Sinar and leaf and i don't own them. I just see more good than i do bad. price to pay for this is something that comes with there warranties. maybe they change the way they do that 1 year warranty gets you nothing and a 3 year warranty get's you service than you can decide. This is just a idea and something i said to Leica on there S2, you want it you pay for loaners , demo's and dealer service than buy a 3 year warranty and run it through the Phase network. Sell 1 year warranty no service like any camera at the leica dealer retail stores at a lower cost. Maybe something like this is a game changer in the industry but it serves everyone and there particular needs.

[gwhitf]

To Guy:

Why not have one main Phase One office/studio/warehouse based in a central city in the US? Some place where pretty much anyone in the country could fly to with only one change of planes? Chicago or Dallas or Atlanta or even New York? Why not a studio you could go to, even with your own lights, and set up a shot, at their warehouse or studio, and be able to test a P30 alongside a P25, or even P65? Hell, even throw in a Credit Coupon for the airfare if the customer buys within 30 days.

Or for that matter, how hard would it be for someone in Denmark to simply set up a shot in their studio, and post the RAWs for download? And to have them tell you, truthfully, how the back and software was set when those RAWs were shot?

I am telling you  -- Phase could do SO much more to earn trust and loyalty, and all from within their own singular corporation, without the crutch of a dealer. The reason that Dave Gallagher has done so well is that he's a good guy -- a human guy -- (even if the Red Sox lost) -- and we've slapped him around enough by now that he knows to tell us the absolute truth when we ask him a question. Phase One could demonstrate that same forthrightness, yet they continue to act like that Wizard of Oz guy, and stay firmly (and secretly) behind the curtain, and in the shadows. They alone will ride the ship down, in this New Economy. It did not have to be that way. They had plenty of options to succeed; they could have changed their ways, based on Customer Feedback. They did not.

If Phase simply installed a U.S. warehouse, along with two or three great Customer Service people, they'd be able to drop their prices and possibly survive. What Phase needs are good reliable trustable "evangelists". Just two or three. Imagine if Phase had someone like that Laforet guy; someone trustable. A real photographer. Not a lab coat guy. Imagine that that guy did with the P65 was Laforet did with that video function of the 5DII. Laforet has made Canon Inc untold MILLIONS in pre-orders, before the camera is even shipping. And the really great thing about what Laforet did, was that he did it not out of financial motivation. (Well maybe some). But I think he did it almost purely out of passion for a great photographic tool; that's what kicked ass about his 5DII project. And other real photographers respond to that. It's about trust and throwing the MTF charts out the window.

I agree with Big Cooter about Steve Hendrix's response about the lenses -- you don't answer a question about your own product by slamming the products of the competition. Sounds like Steve is learning how to toe the company line.

You want Loyalty? Then provide Answers. If not, it's too effing easy to buy a 1ds3, that works right out of the box.

[jjj]

I had a chat with someone from Phase the other day and he was more than happy for me to load demo camera kit for me to see how good they are.
The Hasselblad fellow in my area has also said that I could use their kit for a job to try it out.
Just as well really as although I live in one of the UK's biggest cities, I cannot buy MF digital kit. Come to that I cannot even rent camera kit  of any kind,  unless I travel to another city at least an hour away and that if traffic is light.

[James R Russell]

Not so much loaners only . How about trying the thing out before you buy. Most MF folks will let you try it out first with a demo . I tried all three Phase backs before I let someone hand me a invoice. I had a real hard time between the P30 and P25 plus's. B&H and Samy's under the current way of doing business don't really have that available. I'm sorry but before I hand over 30 k i want to try the thing. Under 8 k it does not matter as much to try a Nikon or Canon and I can rent one in 10 minutes . There are no MF systems in this town that i could go try and i am in a big city ( Phoenix). Personally i am not going to risk 30 k on a bad mistake on my end if I don't get the correct one. I do understand both view points on this but I do think the dealer system has more value than we maybe giving credit for. I also can tap as well as everyone else the guys from Sinar , Leaf and Phase right here on this forum and my forum for answers. I have yet to see a Hassy dealer and sign up at my forum for sure and have not seen one here, Not counting Steve. Frankly I still have yet to figure out the Hassy system and much less than I know about Sinar and leaf and i don't own them. I just see more good than i do bad. price to pay for this is something that comes with there warranties. maybe they change the way they do that 1 year warranty gets you nothing and a 3 year warranty get's you service than you can decide. This is just a idea and something i said to Leica on there S2, you want it you pay for loaners , demo's and dealer service than buy a 3 year warranty and run it through the Phase network. Sell 1 year warranty no service like any camera at the leica dealer retail stores at a lower cost. Maybe something like this is a game changer in the industry but it serves everyone and there particular needs.

I think medium format has brainwashed themselves.   They're like General Motors that keep building SUV's and acting like Toyota doesn't exisit.  Of course now they're rushing around like crazy to build a "Toyota", because nobody has the cash to fill up the SUV.  Problem is they have parking lots and warehouses full of SUV's they can't sell and unlike medium format at least General Motors has a dealer in every city in the world.

Your in Phoenix and can't buy a digital back locally?  I find that almost laughable that a market that size doesn't have a camera store that sells all the digital backs.  It's even crazier that the two largest camera stores I've ever walked into, B+H and Yodobashi don't have  digital backs behind the counter.

People from all over the world walk into those stores every day, line up and fork over millions of dollars for Nikons, Canons and Sony's, but medium format doesn't believe that those two stores fit into their business model.  Amazing.

Today I'm out the door to 4  countries.  Do you think that my value added dealer can do anything for me in Moscow or Seoul?   If the Phase backs pack up or get dropped I'll just carry them around the world like a paperweight, but if the Canons go down, I'll buy a new one.  It may not be the best system but at least I can find a Canon and I can buy a Canon, I can afford a Canon and I can keep shooting with a Canon.  

I think medium format wants to sell me a new camera, because I get about 4 e-mails a day from Phase, Leaf and Hasselblad, (nothing from Sinar), but ask a question like what does the P65plus really do, how does it go to 1600 iso, when will it be available and I'm told to come to the specialized dealer for a two hour presentation.   Uh, sure, no problem, should I bring the popcorn.

Medium format has built a level of complexity into it's information stream, buying process, warranty and price that does it's best to make the purchase difficult.

Even living in New York doesn't gaurantee you access to every make, brand or mount.

The fact that any camera manufacturer tells me they can not  sell their cameras in camera stores would be funny if it wasn't so crazy.

To top it off all the manufacturers have 3 to  4 reps  in the U.S. alone and why . . . to talk to the specialty dealers, have lunch, give "demos".

All this really tells me is their margins are too high.

They'd be better off if their reps became sales people and just sold product.  

Phase would be a lot better off if they stopped charging $4,000 for a warranty, value added or not.


JR