HPZ 3100 _ star-wheel marks [revisted]

[circuit]

Hello,
I am new to the list and have been eagerly reading posts that discuss concerns over star-wheel (or pizza) track marks along prints. We have two HP Z3100 printers (24" and 44") -- brand new -- and we are not able to achieve prints on glossy paper (HP ID Gloss) without these star wheel marks. We have had the technicians working solidly on the problem for three days (replacing the assemblies with the new revised ones, and yet the problem persists)!!

We are in the Fine Art printing business and these marks are not acceptable for us.

After extensive research we decided to go with the Z3100 series for our business as their ink set and features are excellent (what we were looking for vis a vis combo of archival concerns, print quality). I must say that the prints we make are very good on all our media EXCEPT the gloss photo paper. We have no complaints about print quality (colour etc.) -- really excellent -- they just have to do with the scratching of gloss media on delivery. We are big fans of HP in terms of permanence -- their inks and paper combination seem to out perform Epson (a mute point perhaps if we can't get a clean print, or if we have to revert to chromogenic printing!!). I have researched this issue as much as I can (WIR, etc) but am open to others proving me wrong about HP inks.

At any rate, HP has been helpful in our trying to resolve the issue. So far our complaint has been escalated to a head office (USA) and I was talking with a rep. familiar with the engineering of the printers and he confessed that we had simply reached the product's limits -- there was nothing "wrong" per se with the printer (i.e. nothing more to do) and that this is a well known issue and limitation of the printer.

I asked if this was HP's best printer line? -- He said yes, and that for most applications it is well suited -- the trouble comes for those with a very discerning eye and who are printing fine art photos on gloss media (with lots of darks / blacks -- as it is more visible).

He is now trying to get us into the Z3200 suggesting that this printer has addressed these star-wheel issues. Our sales rep has accepted a full refund for our 44" Z3100 (which is great, and as it should be, considering it is a week old!). So we are at a cross-roads: to stay with HP -- try the Z3200 -- or buy an Epson as a dedicated gloss printer -- or simply outsource the gloss work / c-prints.

So my questions to the list:
1) Does anyone out there know of another solution? Had success with gloss media (an absolutely clean print)? We are sticking with HP media for a number of reasons, but could change if there is a a known / proven fix.

2) Does anyone with a new Z3200 have star-wheel marks? ** Please let us know! **
 
3) Any advice on how else to solve the problem -- Epson? (Again, we have made a large investment already in media and consumables, and it is a hassle to switch, and we were not sold on Epson in the first place -- but are open to convincing)...

Well -- enough for a first post (sorry for the length). I have enjoyed what I have read here. Thanks, and I look forward to any thoughts / comments.
Cheers,
C.

[dct123]

I can tell you that sample output from an HP 'beta' Z3200 on clear film shows very little tracking in solid black areas of the prints. The amount of spots or tracking is so slight it might even have been caused by dust on the media. (We soft brush the surface of our canvas and other media before printing to eliminate dust specs and therefore any 'holidays' or voids.)

After evaluating the other manufacturers' offerings, we decided to purchase a Z3200 based on the performance of our Z3100 over the past eighteen months, and also because of improvements to the Z3200. We have built our fine art reproduction business based on the consistent day-to-day quality of the Z3100 printer. Our decision was also based on the need to expand sales into the clear film segment of the market, and our need to continue to provide our clients with the best available quality.

Although we believe that the amount of 'tracking' visible on clear film samples from the Z3200 would not create any problems with our critical artist clients, you really need to evaluate the output yourself...ask your rep to get you samples from the Z3200. They're also available from HP.

DC Tomick

[circuit]

DC Tomick -- this is encouraging news! Thanks for posting.
May I ask if star-wheel problems was a factor in your decision to purchase the Z3200?

Cheers.

[dct123]

DC Tomick -- this is encouraging news! Thanks for posting.
May I ask if star-wheel problems was a factor in your decision to purchase the Z3200?

Cheers.

Of course it was...we needed to assure the film media clients we were going after that we we're providing the best possible output that can be obtained. I think it goes without saying that in the present economic climate we need to cover all our bases when looking to develop new business. Every dollar out there is hard fought for and with so many others scrambling to improve, or merely maintain their bottom line, chances can't be taken.

FWIW: We have tried various media other than HP, and eventually settled on a narrow selection of HP only stock papers and canvas. This decision was based both on the economics of a small just-in-time inventory and the fact that HP media consistently produced the quality results that best suited our clients' needs.


DC Tomick

[circuit]

We have tried various media other than HP, and eventually settled on a narrow selection of HP only stock papers and canvas. This decision was based both on the economics of a small just-in-time inventory and the fact that HP media consistently produced the quality results that best suited our clients' needs.

DC Tomick

We seem on the same page. We are so far, going to stay with HP media (until I can be assured of permanence information for third party papers using HP Vivera inks -- which is next to impossible to ascertain as tests have not been performed with this specific ink / paper combo -- both of which are needed to make any real claim about permanence). Cheers.

[deelight]

Hi,

just a question: Does the Z3100 always have the "old" wheel assembly built in? My "44 is from May 2008 and until now I did not print on high gloss material to check if there are problems with wheel marks.

Is it possible that after they found the problem with the star wheels at HP that they started building in the new part directly? What date of production might that be?

Thanks,

Clem

[neil snape]

Star wheel tracks will be present on any printer that employs them. All the Z printers, the smaller HP pigment printer, the older dyes, Epson 3800, 24-2880, etc.

How visible depends on the hardness of the light you use to view them, the media type and the environmental conditions at print time.

I had multiple Z 3100 printers and have printed on many more.
On all of the ones I had for testing there were some markage on ID but truly invisible unless you were looking for them in a way that you could find them, and to do this ignore what any normal viewer would be looking at.

The star wheel marks however were unacceptable on many other third party paper due to surface coating, ink drying or both.

There were some cases reported here, also those for which I have seen on other HP B9180 in use where the marks on ID or Advanced Glossy were very apparent.

It sounds like this is your case.
That is why they came out with a new pinch roller and star wheel assembly. This also is reported as fixing the problem to a large degree on third party media. The new 3200 will surely have this incorporated, but also was replaced by a field technician for those who had problems.
I did not see any on the 3200 on third party Hahenmuhle PhotoRag Baryta under hard spot lighting. Mind you there isn't any on the 9180 either.
That should say then as before unless there is a true fault in the assembly you should have this problem.
You are though, which makes me wonder why they can't fix the 3100?

Since they offered you a full refund, I will confirm the better route is go with the 3200 ( as long as you want to stay with HP) as there are nice improvements in reds on all media, and some other minor hardware improvements too.

[seekerbeta]

Hello,
I am new to the list and have been eagerly reading posts that discuss concerns over star-wheel (or pizza) track marks along prints. We have two HP Z3100 printers (24" and 44") -- brand new -- and we are not able to achieve prints on glossy paper (HP ID Gloss) without these star wheel marks. We have had the technicians working solidly on the problem for three days (replacing the assemblies with the new revised ones, and yet the problem persists)!!

We are in the Fine Art printing business and these marks are not acceptable for us.

After extensive research we decided to go with the Z3100 series for our business as their ink set and features are excellent (what we were looking for vis a vis combo of archival concerns, print quality). I must say that the prints we make are very good on all our media EXCEPT the gloss photo paper. We have no complaints about print quality (colour etc.) -- really excellent -- they just have to do with the scratching of gloss media on delivery. We are big fans of HP in terms of permanence -- their inks and paper combination seem to out perform Epson (a mute point perhaps if we can't get a clean print, or if we have to revert to chromogenic printing!!). I have researched this issue as much as I can (WIR, etc) but am open to others proving me wrong about HP inks.

At any rate, HP has been helpful in our trying to resolve the issue. So far our complaint has been escalated to a head office (USA) and I was talking with a rep. familiar with the engineering of the printers and he confessed that we had simply reached the product's limits -- there was nothing "wrong" per se with the printer (i.e. nothing more to do) and that this is a well known issue and limitation of the printer.

I asked if this was HP's best printer line? -- He said yes, and that for most applications it is well suited -- the trouble comes for those with a very discerning eye and who are printing fine art photos on gloss media (with lots of darks / blacks -- as it is more visible).

He is now trying to get us into the Z3200 suggesting that this printer has addressed these star-wheel issues. Our sales rep has accepted a full refund for our 44" Z3100 (which is great, and as it should be, considering it is a week old!). So we are at a cross-roads: to stay with HP -- try the Z3200 -- or buy an Epson as a dedicated gloss printer -- or simply outsource the gloss work / c-prints.

So my questions to the list:
1) Does anyone out there know of another solution? Had success with gloss media (an absolutely clean print)? We are sticking with HP media for a number of reasons, but could change if there is a a known / proven fix.

2) Does anyone with a new Z3200 have star-wheel marks? ** Please let us know! **
 
3) Any advice on how else to solve the problem -- Epson? (Again, we have made a large investment already in media and consumables, and it is a hassle to switch, and we were not sold on Epson in the first place -- but are open to convincing)...

Well -- enough for a first post (sorry for the length). I have enjoyed what I have read here. Thanks, and I look forward to any thoughts / comments.
Cheers,
C.

do you have a sample of the image with the marks you could post? i worked for hp, and would be able to identify some troubleshooting steps you could perform that might solve your issue

[circuit]

Hi,

just a question: Does the Z3100 always have the "old" wheel assembly built in? My "44 is from May 2008 and until now I did not print on high gloss material to check if there are problems with wheel marks.

Is it possible that after they found the problem with the star wheels at HP that they started building in the new part directly? What date of production might that be?

Thanks,

Clem

Clem,
Our 44" printer had a new star-wheel assembly installed, and the problem remained for us. The printer was purchased a month ago. I am not sure about the date of its manufacture.
Claire

[circuit]

Star wheel tracks will be present on any printer that employs them. All the Z printers, the smaller HP pigment printer, the older dyes, Epson 3800, 24-2880, etc.

How visible depends on the hardness of the light you use to view them, the media type and the environmental conditions at print time.

I had multiple Z 3100 printers and have printed on many more.
On all of the ones I had for testing there were some markage on ID but truly invisible unless you were looking for them in a way that you could find them, and to do this ignore what any normal viewer would be looking at.

The star wheel marks however were unacceptable on many other third party paper due to surface coating, ink drying or both.

There were some cases reported here, also those for which I have seen on other HP B9180 in use where the marks on ID or Advanced Glossy were very apparent.

It sounds like this is your case.
That is why they came out with a new pinch roller and star wheel assembly. This also is reported as fixing the problem to a large degree on third party media. The new 3200 will surely have this incorporated, but also was replaced by a field technician for those who had problems.
I did not see any on the 3200 on third party Hahenmuhle PhotoRag Baryta under hard spot lighting. Mind you there isn't any on the 9180 either.
That should say then as before unless there is a true fault in the assembly you should have this problem.
You are though, which makes me wonder why they can't fix the 3100?

Since they offered you a full refund, I will confirm the better route is go with the 3200 ( as long as you want to stay with HP) as there are nice improvements in reds on all media, and some other minor hardware improvements too.

So an update...
We have decided to accept the full refund on our z3100 44" and get into the new z3200. I was able to demo a z3200 and print on our preferred media (ID Gloss). The new software control over the star wheel assembly (up or down) along withe ability to control ink gave us teh results we needed. Any remaining star-wheel marks on this media were (if at all visible) VERY difficult to see, something we decided was acceptable. The z3100 and z3200 are excellent printers and we are otherwise very pleased with their performance, so happy to stay with HP. Our new printer has yet to arrive, but I will no doubt post more when I can work more with it and otehr papers!

Cheers,
Claire

[circuit]

do you have a sample of the image with the marks you could post? i worked for hp, and would be able to identify some troubleshooting steps you could perform that might solve your issue

The marks were confirmed by a number of sources to be made by the star-wheel assembly. What kind of tricks or tips do you have? One printer told me that he removed the star-wheels themselves (not the assembly) -- is this the kind of thing you are thinking?
Claire