If you had to do it all over ...

Hasselblad H3D: Scandinavian precision rocks!

38 (29%)

Sinar/Leaf Hy6/Afi: Swiss/German/Israelii precision rocks!

46 (35.1%)

Phase One/Mamiya AFDIII: Danish/Japanese precision rocks!

24 (18.3%)

Leica S2: German precision rocks!

9 (6.9%)

Nikon MX: Japanese precision rocks!

8 (6.1%)

You forgot my brand so I'll rock you!

6 (4.6%)

Total Members Voted: 123

[thsinar]

James,

I understand that your post is not (only) aimed at Sinar. And I also do not wish to answer it point by point, only those I know for (almost) sure and which are:

3. I believe it does not need any special graphic card

4. yes, the Sinarback eSprit 65 has the ability to shoot RAWs and DNGs, EVEN MORE: it can ALSO shoot DNGs and JPGs (informed already)

5. "User" settings can be set in the back (informed already as well)

6. No on-line activation was ever necessary with a Sinar software: no license needed (this is something I hate too, as you James!)

7. the FW upgrade comes from the CF card. I believe that going back to a previous version is possible (at least it was so with the previous generation of Sinarbacks)

8. I have honestly no experience with C1 and little with the EOS system (shame on me)

9. It (usually) is less than 1 minute to re-start the software: But I believe that somebody will certainly prove me wrong. At least I never had myself a "troubleshooting" session of 10/15 minutes, with MY MBP.

10. rename on the fly: not sure what you mean exactly. It is possible to create a session or re-name afterwards.

Now for the rest (and understand 1. and 2. to be ironical):

1. there are a hundred reasons not to buy (any product). I am just naming 2 of it jumping up in my mind:

- In less than 2 years from now there will only be one MF company left, according to "gwhitf". May be we have here a new Nostradamus, who knows. I cannot predict this, and even if, Nostradamus has never been proven right, respectively anything proving him to be right on one issue can be proven wrong the same way. So don't ask me this question. And no "gwhitf", we don't think that a zillion megapixels is all that matters to anyone, and believe we have proven it.

- Our new camera system is not a proven system and not running for more than x years. Though we have nearly 16 years of digital experience.

2. I cannot answer your other questions, simply because I don't know the answers, and because my answers will most certainly call for new questions. Some more questions to be asked, e.g.:

- will the system run tethered flawlessly while shooting a production and they are power-cuts or voltage shortage due to a thunderstorm or other reasons?

- will you particular Mac/PC configuration not create any problem while shooting tethered, due to some un-known conflict?

- will you be the lucky one who gets a battery that lasts for the 2000 claimed shots, or will you be the one who sees his battery running off after 10 minutes of shooting?

- will there ever be any corrupt file(s) on your CF card?

- etc ...

and when all these question shall be answered and satisfying for you, the next question is/will be "when can I order/buy/have it delivered": also a question I can't answer, since it depends on the orders and production numbers (I don't need to say that we don't have production facilities and numbers like Nikan or Canik). If somebody is interested in having a demo or ordering a new product, the best to do is to contact the distributor: most of them are helpful in a trusty and honest way.

As said, there are many reasons to find and questions to ask when wishing to invest (or not) in a new system. You have named most of them, even more, repeated them at will, so that I know them by heart now. Most of them are valid reasons, some of them I don't understand. I doubt any Nikan or Canik can give you the assurance and security and answer all your questions positively (yes I know, they cost a lot less). What I know is that there are (Sinar and other) users which are happy and do work without any major problem, since many years, with their MF system and digital back.

Best regards,
Thierry

I could/should have added to this but it was late.

1.  Does tethering work up to 30' without a powerered firewire repeater?

2.  Does the camera/back self power in tethering, i.e. for problematic mac's with limited firewire power or working pc.

3.  Does the software require special graphics cards, i.e. will it work with a macbook pro, 24" I-mac, etc.

4.  Does the back have the ability to shoot jpgs or raw/jpegs to the cf card simutaneuously when tethering.  

5.  Can you set color, tone, (your film look in the software) and then embed that into the back for non tethered shooting, so if you go from tethering to portable you have the same look?

6.  Does the software require online activation (God I hate this as I own a lot of computers, including backup, but NEVER run the software more than on two computers at once, so with Phase I own two liscenses).

7.  Does the firmware upgrades come from the software or the firmware and if so, if a firmware upgrade has a glitch, i.e. bad green color previews, lines in the frame, half black frames, centerfold,  wonky grey balance settings (I've seen em all) can you go back to a previous version so you can keep working?

8.  Are the previews in the software smooth and film like or hard and crunchy, think C-1 3.78 for the hard and crunch, think EOS utility for nice and smooth and film like.

9.  Does the software retstart quickly.  If the firewire cord is pulled out during working is it a 1 minute restart of software or a 10, 15 minute troubleshooting session of restarting computers, drives, etc.

10.  Can you rename on the fly?

Now this and the other list is off the top of my head and this comes from experience of having everything happen as above and how to work around it.

The thing is the Phase and C-1 do most of the good things I've mentioned and a few of the bad, (the previews and sometimes some firewire issues), though at least the back powers itself.

I would suggest strongly that your new camera/back has previews still in the back for review or at least hold the last frame until you start shooting again, so the photogrpaher doesn't have to run over to the computer station to check the last frame.

Now the real kicker to all this is the 1ds3 does everything on these two lists and does it for $7,000.   I would imagine the 5d2 will also for $3,000, so we are now in no excuse land where any medium format back will have to work as well and as functional as a professional dslr.

This isn't direct to Sinar, this is directed to all medium format.  NO more excuses.   Make your equipment as usable and reliable as a Canon, make it EASY to buy, make it EASY to rent.  If you hae good dealers, reward them, bad dealers . . . drop them.  Get this stuff on the shelf and ready to buy.  Also paint it black.

No more excuses.

JR

[thsinar]

Thierry,

I am not going to comment in public on whose margins these are. But since you say you do not recognize them, one wonders where Sinar's profit is located as their prices are not known as particularly low, compared to the competition....

I cannot speak for Leaf, only for what I know, Sinar matters and prices in this case. I wonder too.
I don't think that recent Sinar prices (understand since a few years now and for digital equipment) are over or much over others. In fact, and recent published prices by myself prove it, it is quite the contrary.

The online Sinar shop in Germany is a nice thing, but seeing the prices it looks as if I can now get the same stuff without "added value" for the same price that an "added value" version costs. I don't care so much about having an online store as well as not having to pay a premium for something I do not need. Wasn't that clear from my reasoning?

I would have to check the prices in detail, which I didn't, to compare and comment. But warranty and support are still the same, I believe. This online shop is meant to simplify ordering/buying etc ..., not to cut our prices and with it our support and warranty. I don't see this as "added value", but rather as "contractual value", whatever way one does the purchase.

Best regards,
Thierry

[Guy Mancuso]

Hmmm guess I would seem the odd man out if I said i actually liked my system. Only real issue I have is some shutter lag that bugs me sometimes. But If i had to start over again and let's say the Leica S2 was out and running trouble free and all there ducks are lined up nicely. It would actually fit me better for a good percentage of work. So i would get that system but I still would want a P45 plus or my current back a P25 plus and a Cambo WRS-1000 and several nice lenses. Not that i don't like my current system i do but the S2 would be faster in several ways and would fit better for certain gigs. I won't comment on other systems I don't have since i had good reasons not to get them in the first place.

[James R Russell]

Hmmm guess I would seem the odd man out if I said i actually liked my system. Only real issue I have is some shutter lag that bugs me sometimes. But If i had to start over again and let's say the Leica S2 was out and running trouble free and all there ducks are lined up nicely. It would actually fit me better for a good percentage of work. So i would get that system but I still would want a P45 plus or my current back a P25 plus and a Cambo WRS-1000 and several nice lenses. Not that i don't like my current system i do but the S2 would be faster in several ways and would fit better for certain gigs. I won't comment on other systems I don't have since i had good reasons not to get them in the first place.

I don't think this is about if your happy with what you presently have.  I'm fine with what I use and it's paid for, allows me to make money, etc. etc.

I think this comes down to would you not only do it again, (at new prices) but even more important did anything form annoucekina make you reach into your wallet and write the check if you could buy it today?

The last one is difficult to judge because from annoucement to shelf is usually a long time and usually comes with a few notes, like waiting for lenses, or something that affects the usability.

I am very curious about who will buy 50 and 60mpx backs at the current prices. In today's business climate the increase in prices doesn't seem to make sense, but maybe the time these cameras really come to market we will be into the next dotcom boom, or something like that and money will be flowing again.

And this also really shouldn't be about comparing medium format to 35mm, (though I am somewhat at a loss to understand what medium format is anymore), I guess in the eyes of most medium format means something large than 24x36mm.

Regardless, when it comes to producing art for commerce, (and I include fine art and editorial in this) I think to some extent it is about the comparision of 35mm to larger formats.  

I'll admit, I like cameras and have bought a lot of them, but if I was 100% honest with myself I know that I could have just continued on with my original 1ds Canons and not really changed anything for the majority of what I am paid to shoot.

Now with the 1ds3, I will also admit that I use medium format less and less and it is not from a cost standpoint, it's just that it allows me to do more with one system, with a lot less hassel.

JR

[AndreNapier]

I am a bit troubled here reading my colleges posts about 5dII on order. Four here, two there etc. For a God sake this is still 5D. It is not a solution nor wholly grail of photography. Two months down the road you guys will be dumping them on eBay. Everybody around you is going to own one. There is a lot of ways to save money on equipment. Light is just a light so if you know how to use it the cheapest brand will do.
When I go to car mechanic I do not care if he uses Craftsmen tools or cheap knockoffs as long as he manages to tighten the screws. But you know what? He does.
I have spent hundreds of hours trying to convince myself that DSLR are good enough. I tried Canons with the best Leica glass, every possible option went through my hands. If I still carry big, heavy and old Rz with A75s it is because there is a reason. The reason is not to impress anybody, the reason is not to get paid more or land more jobs, the reason is not because clients appreciate the difference. The reason is very simple - I love and I am proud of what I do and I want to make the best images I am capable to make. If this was just a job than 5D would be just perfect. But if this was just a job I would not be writing about it right now.
If I had to do it again I would hire someone to give me a Leaf DB with full frame Rz sensor. I will be OK if it stops working here and there as my wife made it her profession to entertain and distract clients, ADs and talent in those dire situations.
Http://AndreNapier.com

[thsinar]

honestly speaking, I was thinking that we should close this "MF" section. But there is at least one left!

Oh I know, it's probably because I spoke about a special Rolleiflex (sorry," Rollei") edition for you!

 

Best regards,
Thierry

I am a bit troubled here reading my colleges posts about 5dII on order. Four here, two there etc. For a God sake this is still 5D. It is not a solution nor wholly grail of photography. Two months down the road you guys will be dumping them on eBay. Everybody around you is going to own one. There is a lot of ways to save money on equipment. Light is just a light so if you know how to use it the cheapest brand will do.
When I go to car mechanic I do not care if he uses Craftsmen tools or cheap knockoffs as long as he manages to tighten the screws. But you know what? He does.
I have spent hundreds of hours trying to convince myself that DSLR are good enough. I tried Canons with the best Leica glass, every possible option went through my hands. If I still carry big, heavy and old Rz with A75s it is because there is a reason. The reason is not to impress anybody, the reason is not to get paid more or land more jobs, the reason is not because clients appreciate the difference. The reason is very simple - I love and I am proud of what I do and I want to make the best images I am capable to make. If this was just a job than 5D would be just perfect. But if this was just a job I would not be writing about it right now.
If I had to do it again I would hire someone to give me a Leaf DB with full frame Rz sensor. I will be OK if it stops working here and there as my wife made it her profession to entertain and distract clients, ADs and talent in those dire situations.
Http://AndreNapier.com

[Dustbak]

I will be OK if it stops working here and there as my wife made it her profession to entertain and distract clients, ADs and talent in those dire situations.
Http://AndreNapier.com

Hahahaha....

I totally agree with everything you say but this really makes me smile. Having seen your wife I am sure nobody will mind to be entertained and distracted by her (if they weren't already). I was just thinking pretty much the same things when I was reading all previous posts.

Too many people react too clinical I believe. Personally I am very happy with my H and HC lenses. The equipment has never let me down besides 1 time which is the first in 6 years. On the other hand my Nikon hasn't let me down in the last 15years. I use the back as much as I can even when I could be using the Nikon. I guess in 50% of the cases I could have been using the Nikon. Why use the back? Because I like doing so. I like the files and the feel of the images created by the backs, I also like working with it, the larger viewfinder, slower workpace, it simply works differently which includes all the small weird stuff or the occassional hickup.

To be frank I actually love to use my Digiflex more than my Nikon or H even if everything is manual, it has no autofocus, it has no light metering, it is heavy and a bit clumsy. For me photography is a job but where does it say I am not allowed in having fun using tools I prefer. The one tool fits all mentality might stick for many but there will always be people that see things differently...

I know a person that just lost a M8 to moisture. The factory and importer treated him pretty bad by not helping him for something that should have been warranty. He ended up buying a new one (after some heavy thinking) because he loved working with it.

I just mean to say there are many reasons why people buy or use a particular system. That it is capable of doing 95% of all jobs might be an important reason but is not the only one and might not even be the most important reason.

[Dustbak]

I will be OK if it stops working here and there as my wife made it her profession to entertain and distract clients, ADs and talent in those dire situations.
Http://AndreNapier.com

Hahahaha....

I totally agree with everything you say but this really makes me smile. Having seen your wife I am sure nobody will mind to be entertained and distracted by her (if they weren't already). I was just thinking pretty much the same things when I was reading all previous posts.

Too many people react too clinical I believe. Personally I am very happy with my H and HC lenses. The equipment has never let me down besides 1 time which is the first in 6 years of using MFDB. On the other hand my Nikon hasn't let me down in the last 15years. I use the back as much as I can even when I could be using the Nikon. I guess in 50% of the cases I could have been using the Nikon. Why use the back? Because I like doing so. I like the files and the feel of the images created by the backs, I also like working with it, the larger viewfinder, slower workpace, it simply works differently which includes all the small weird stuff or the occassional hickup.

To be frank I actually love to use my Digiflex more in use than my Nikon or H even if everything is manual, it has no autofocus, it has no light metering, it is heavy and a bit clumsy. For me photography is a job but where does it say I am not allowed in having fun using tools I prefer.

I know a person that just lost a M8 to moisture. The factory and importer treated him pretty bad by not helping him for something that should have been warranty. He ended up buying a new one (after some heavy thinking) because he loved working with it.

I just mean to say there are many reasons why people buy or use a particular system. That it is capable of doing 95% of all jobs might be an important reason but is not the only one and might not even be the most important reason. I don't believe in the 'one tool fits all' mentality...

[eronald]

Edmund,

As for the drink, I do not want to sound rude or not polite, and leave it to your judgment.

Best regards,
Thierry

Thierry,

 I think you still owe me a drink - I'm sure alcohol can be found in Patpong, the next time I visit your adopted home country

Edmund

[thsinar]

if you make it in time before I have left Thailand!

 

Thierry

Thierry,

 I think you still owe me a drink - I'm sure alcohol can be found in Patpong, the next time I visit your adopted home country

Edmund

[Adina]

I will be OK if it stops working here and there as my wife made it her profession to entertain and distract clients, ADs and talent in those dire situations.
Http://AndreNapier.com

I think they've got nothing noticed ...  

[design_freak]

I want to say only one thing:
Camera is only your tool. Professional photographer need sometimes different tools to get what he want.
Sometimes we need to shoot with Nikon D3, sometimes with view camera 8"x10", sometimes we need Digital MF.
It's depending from your job. We must use tool that deliver us exactly what we need.
Nobody can said me that Canon 5D Mark II is supreme camera, it could be in specific situation. But never win in "specyfic situation" with Digital MF.
Dynamic range, colors, details - in Digital MF cameras is light years far from 35mm DSLR.

Freak

[Mitchell Baum]

For me Photokina was the tipping point. I tried and loved the Hy6, but couldn't get my head around the price with a 54 or 75 Lv. With the 65 price and improvements such as the screen and integration, I'm going to buy one if a demo goes well.

Image quality is one consideration, but way of working is as important. WLF, big bright viewfinder, big image to crop, slowing down, etc., are equally important.  

Best,

Mitchell

[Guy Mancuso]

I don't think this is about if your happy with what you presently have.  I'm fine with what I use and it's paid for, allows me to make money, etc. etc.

I think this comes down to would you not only do it again, (at new prices) but even more important did anything form annoucekina make you reach into your wallet and write the check if you could buy it today?

The last one is difficult to judge because from annoucement to shelf is usually a long time and usually comes with a few notes, like waiting for lenses, or something that affects the usability.

I am very curious about who will buy 50 and 60mpx backs at the current prices. In today's business climate the increase in prices doesn't seem to make sense, but maybe the time these cameras really come to market we will be into the next dotcom boom, or something like that and money will be flowing again.

And this also really shouldn't be about comparing medium format to 35mm, (though I am somewhat at a loss to understand what medium format is anymore), I guess in the eyes of most medium format means something large than 24x36mm.

Regardless, when it comes to producing art for commerce, (and I include fine art and editorial in this) I think to some extent it is about the comparision of 35mm to larger formats.  

I'll admit, I like cameras and have bought a lot of them, but if I was 100% honest with myself I know that I could have just continued on with my original 1ds Canons and not really changed anything for the majority of what I am paid to shoot.

Now with the 1ds3, I will also admit that I use medium format less and less and it is not from a cost standpoint, it's just that it allows me to do more with one system, with a lot less hassel.

JR

Nothing made me jump out of my chair to go get a cashier check to buy it. Interesting mostly , more than we need i agree on some things for sure. I do know I will get the new Mamiya 45mm D lens but really the only decision firmly made. After that it's a will see it in action first.

[gwhitf]

I truly would like to hear from a late-model Hasselblad user, to see if the most recent Phocus software actually will not run on an Apple laptop. That, to me, is just mindboggling -- to be forced to drag around a tower on location, if you bought Hasselblad and needed to tether.

Is there anyone out there shooting high-volume location work that uses the Phocus software on a 17" MacBook Pro?

This one thing is an absolute dealbreaker for Hasselblad, if true.

[BJNY]

That doesn't sound right, gw.
Unless something has changed, Phocus has always been demonstrated to me on a MacBookPro
during the past half year or so.

[gwhitf]

That doesn't sound right, gw.
Unless something has changed, Phocus has always been demonstrated to me on a MacBookPro
during the past half year or so.

The rumor is that it's simply too clunky to EFFICIENTLY run on a MBP. It might actually run, technically, but I've heard comments that you wouldn't want to process an actual job on it.

That's why I'm trying to find a heavy duty Phocus user.

[tho_mas]

Yet they think that a zillion megapixels is all that matters to anyone.

A bit too simplified maybe...
I don't think the main target of the P65+ was to achieve 60MP. I think the target was fullframe (whatever FF means, okay).
Then, probably with regard to some improvements in moirée, they reduced pixel size from 6.8 to 6.0 mircons. Result: 60MP.
But if you think about the binning, too, you need an overplus in resolution.
Now they do normal binning (four pixels combined to one). So with binning you get a 15MP file.
I expect that they will refine binning in further firmware updates so that you can shoot e.g. a 30MP file.
And here we are talking about an increase in ISO for the smaller file sizes.
So you have a fullframe low ISO 60MP back and a fullframe high(er) ISO 15MP and probably soon 30MP back in once.
So maybe ISO and fullframe matters to anyone?
But this is just about what the back can do... it's not about the (hefty) price of the back certainly.

[gwhitf]

A bit too simplified maybe...
I don't think the main target of the P65+ was to achieve 60MP. I think the target was fullframe (whatever FF means, okay).
Then, probably with regard to some improvements in moirée, they reduced pixel size from 6.8 to 6.0 mircons. Result: 60MP.
But if you think about the binning, too, you need an overplus in resolution.
Now they do normal binning (four pixels combined to one). So with binning you get a 15MP file.
I expect that they will refine binning in further firmware updates so that you can shoot e.g. a 30MP file.
And here we are talking about an increase in ISO for the smaller file sizes.
So you have a fullframe low ISO 60MP back and a fullframe high(er) ISO 15MP and probably soon 30MP back in once.
So maybe ISO and fullframe matters to anyone?
But this is just about what the back can do... it's not about the (hefty) price of the back certainly.

I owned a p45+. Trust me, yes, it's not full frame, but the amount of real estate loss with the mask was very tiny. FF, in effect, if you squinted.

I can't imagine anyone could justify the price difference between a used mint p45 non plus, compared to a p65+, when you made two 30x40s and put them side by side on a wall. Maybe if they'd improved the LCD on the p65 you could make an argument, but as we all know...

[design_freak]

I truly would like to hear from a late-model Hasselblad user, to see if the most recent Phocus software actually will not run on an Apple laptop. That, to me, is just mindboggling -- to be forced to drag around a tower on location, if you bought Hasselblad and needed to tether.

Is there anyone out there shooting high-volume location work that uses the Phocus software on a 17" MacBook Pro?

This one thing is an absolute dealbreaker for Hasselblad, if true.

It is not true. I am working on MBP with Phocus. Everything is ok. Of course I prefer to work with MacPro with two displays, because it's more comfortable. And exporting to tiff is much much faster. But in many cases MBP run better/faster that  MacPro. MacPro will work faster if you have GF8800. On basic graphic card performance is not so good right now. New Phocus 1.1 is more stable and in my opinion faster.