If you had to do it all over ...

Hasselblad H3D: Scandinavian precision rocks!

38 (29%)

Sinar/Leaf Hy6/Afi: Swiss/German/Israelii precision rocks!

46 (35.1%)

Phase One/Mamiya AFDIII: Danish/Japanese precision rocks!

24 (18.3%)

Leica S2: German precision rocks!

9 (6.9%)

Nikon MX: Japanese precision rocks!

8 (6.1%)

You forgot my brand so I'll rock you!

6 (4.6%)

Total Members Voted: 123

[design_freak]

For me Hasselblad is the best system on the market right now.
With H3DII-39 I don't have any problems that i have with older model of H system. Amazing lenses with central shutter. HCD 28 is perfect. HC 2.2./100mm is my favorite lens.
HTS 1.5 works very nice. We can use 28,35,50,80,100 also with extension tube.  (DAC work- it;s  something) 80% of tabletop photography we can do with HTS 1.5.
If you need more adv system - you can buy arca or linhof wiht HR lenses and att digital unit via sliding adapter. You don't need computer if you don't want. It;s simple - att battery grip to adapter and go.
In Phocus 1.1 you have white calibration tool - also you can change setings of your HR lenses directly form Phocus. Ver 1.1 is much much faster that 1.0.1 Guys from Denmark do great job.
Right now you will not have any problems with upgrading firmware, phocus will do everything.
Working tethered to your computer is very very fast.
But somebody tell that is close system... My question is : who care about it? if you get in this system everything what you want   Nikon and Canon are close system too. They droping the price too. Is it something wrong?
I think that no. Phase, Leaf , Sinar in my opinion don't have full range of accesories (viewfinders,lenses etc.) and their prices are too high. I don't think that they product are bad. They don't have "complete system".
If you use phase, sinar or leaf, and you are happy with it. Everything is ok. Because it is only your tool. Best tool for me is Hasselblad.

Sorry guys for my english

[James R Russell]

Now that is a nice comprehensive checklist of the usual things a pro who puts his job at stake with the camera/workflow he uses needs to know! I suggest to the Jenoptik people that they print it big and hang it in their testlab for everybody involved to look at, every day, before any new announcement is being made. (I am personally sick of this whole concept where the testing has to be done by the clients - after they have spend their money. At this level of professionalism (and price level) products have to fully work as advertised in the environment where they are supposed to be used. Why do I have to agree to a disclaimer that says "software is supplied 'as is' and no warranties are made that it will work" in order to be able to use very expensive, professional equipment?)

I could/should have added to this but it was late.

1.   Does tethering work up to 30' without a powerered firewire repeater?

2.  Does the camera/back self power in tethering, i.e. for problematic mac's with limited firewire power or working pc.

3.  Does the software require special graphics cards, i.e. will it work with a macbook pro, 24" I-mac, etc.

4.  Does the back have the ability to shoot jpgs or raw/jpegs to the cf card simutaneuously when tethering.  

5.  Can you set color, tone, (your film look in the software) and then embed that into the back for non tethered shooting, so if you go from tethering to portable you have the same look?

6.  Does the software require online activation (God I hate this as I own a lot of computers, including backup, but NEVER run the software more than on two computers at once, so with Phase I own two liscenses).

7.  Does the firmware upgrades come from the software or the firmware and if so, if a firmware upgrade has a glitch, i.e. bad green color previews, lines in the frame, half black frames, centerfold,  wonky grey balance settings (I've seen em all) can you go back to a previous version so you can keep working?

8.  Are the previews in the software smooth and film like or hard and crunchy, think C-1 3.78 for the hard and crunch, think EOS utility for nice and smooth and film like.

9.  Does the software retstart quickly.  If the firewire cord is pulled out during working is it a 1 minute restart of software or a 10, 15 minute troubleshooting session of restarting computers, drives, etc.

10.  Can you rename on the fly?

Now this and the other list is off the top of my head and this comes from experience of having everything happen as above and how to work around it.

The thing is the Phase and C-1 do most of the good things I've mentioned and a few of the bad, (the previews and sometimes some firewire issues), though at least the back powers itself.

I would suggest strongly that your new camera/back has previews still in the back for review or at least hold the last frame until you start shooting again, so the photogrpaher doesn't have to run over to the computer station to check the last frame.

Now the real kicker to all this is the 1ds3 does everything on these two lists and does it for $7,000.   I would imagine the 5d2 will also for $3,000, so we are now in no excuse land where any medium format back will have to work as well and as functional as a professional dslr.

This isn't direct to Sinar, this is directed to all medium format.  NO more excuses.   Make your equipment as usable and reliable as a Canon, make it EASY to buy, make it EASY to rent.  If you hae good dealers, reward them, bad dealers . . . drop them.  Get this stuff on the shelf and ready to buy.  Also paint it black.

No more excuses.

JR

[eronald]

I tested the MF cameras from a well known company at Photokina. I tried imaging a person, with studio flash, and the camera had a serious focus offset. I was given another camera sample, same problem. The rep agreed there was an issue, due to the "firmware". I now understand why a well-known photographer who is often heard from on the forums prefers to use an obsolete camera on the theory that it is well-matured.

Edmund

I could/should have added to this but it was late.

1.   Does tethering work up to 30' without a powerered firewire repeater?

2.  Does the camera/back self power in tethering, i.e. for problematic mac's with limited firewire power or working pc.

3.  Does the software require special graphics cards, i.e. will it work with a macbook pro, 24" I-mac, etc.

4.  Does the back have the ability to shoot jpgs or raw/jpegs to the cf card simutaneuously when tethering.  

5.  Can you set color, tone, (your film look in the software) and then embed that into the back for non tethered shooting, so if you go from tethering to portable you have the same look?

6.  Does the software require online activation (God I hate this as I own a lot of computers, including backup, but NEVER run the software more than on two computers at once, so with Phase I own two liscenses).

7.  Does the firmware upgrades come from the software or the firmware and if so, if a firmware upgrade has a glitch, i.e. bad green color previews, lines in the frame, half black frames, centerfold,  wonky grey balance settings (I've seen em all) can you go back to a previous version so you can keep working?

8.  Are the previews in the software smooth and film like or hard and crunchy, think C-1 3.78 for the hard and crunch, think EOS utility for nice and smooth and film like.

9.  Does the software retstart quickly.  If the firewire cord is pulled out during working is it a 1 minute restart of software or a 10, 15 minute troubleshooting session of restarting computers, drives, etc.

10.  Can you rename on the fly?

Now this and the other list is off the top of my head and this comes from experience of having everything happen as above and how to work around it.

The thing is the Phase and C-1 do most of the good things I've mentioned and a few of the bad, (the previews and sometimes some firewire issues), though at least the back powers itself.

I would suggest strongly that your new camera/back has previews still in the back for review or at least hold the last frame until you start shooting again, so the photogrpaher doesn't have to run over to the computer station to check the last frame.

Now the real kicker to all this is the 1ds3 does everything on these two lists and does it for $7,000.   I would imagine the 5d2 will also for $3,000, so we are now in no excuse land where any medium format back will have to work as well and as functional as a professional dslr.

This isn't direct to Sinar, this is directed to all medium format.  NO more excuses.   Make your equipment as usable and reliable as a Canon, make it EASY to buy, make it EASY to rent.  If you hae good dealers, reward them, bad dealers . . . drop them.  Get this stuff on the shelf and ready to buy.  Also paint it black.

No more excuses.

JR

[gwhitf]

Now the real kicker to all this is the 1ds3 does everything on these two lists and does it for $7,000.   I would imagine the 5d2 will also for $3,000, so we are now in no excuse land where any medium format back will have to work as well and as functional as a professional dslr.

This isn't direct to Sinar, this is directed to all medium format.  NO more excuses.   Make your equipment as usable and reliable as a Canon, make it EASY to buy, make it EASY to rent.  If you hae good dealers, reward them, bad dealers . . . drop them.  Get this stuff on the shelf and ready to buy.  Also paint it black.

No more excuses.

Now you're getting somewhere, young man. Combine this second list with the first one, and xerox it for every person that calls a medium format dealer, and make them answer every question.

And you are correct -- when that silly little 5D2 starts shipping, the price comparisons are going to get really laughable -- $2500 versus tens of thousands.

My prediction: by next AnnouncaKina, there will be one MF company with a booth there, and it starts with an "H". Not that anyone will still be buying, but they simply have deeper pockets.

How many years have we asked for these answers? Very many. Yet they think that a zillion megapixels is all that matters to anyone.

I just hope there's not a bailout for MF companies. Some companies deserve to go under.

I am a medium format photographer, and hate 35. But when there's money on the table, you go with what works, and what's not going to give you fits.

You are right -- No more excuses.

[James R Russell]

Now you're getting somewhere, young man. Combine this second list with the first one, and xerox it for every person that calls a medium format dealer, and make them answer every question.

And you are correct -- when that silly little 5D2 starts shipping, the price comparisons are going to get really laughable -- $2500 versus tens of thousands.

My prediction: by next AnnouncaKina, there will be one MF company with a booth there, and it starts with an "H". Not that anyone will still be buying, but they simply have deeper pockets.

How many years have we asked for these answers? Very many. Yet they think that a zillion megapixels is all that matters to anyone.

I just hope there's not a bailout for MF companies. Some companies deserve to go under.

I am a medium format photographer, and hate 35. But when there's money on the table, you go with what works, and what's not going to give you fits.

You are right -- No more excuses.

I would take this one step further and print this list and on the bottom add a clause:

I (value added dealer) to hearby promise that of all the things me and my sales guys check off on this list actually work today.  I (value added dealer) also heaby promise that any features, functions, hardware, software, firmware, that is promsed in the future will happen as per the manufacturers ship date. I (value added dealer) stand by these claims and if it doesn't happpen, the camera doesn't function as advertised, the next firmware turns everything green, purple, red, centerfolds, or produces half black frames, I (value added dealer) promise to to return the sales price in full.

Let's be realistic.  If your $3,000 nikon shot runny green previews, or wouldn't work with a cf card, required a $5,000 desktop to tether, required a new video card to just run the software,  or would jam every 200 frames requiring removal of the battery,  you would return it.

Your right, we have been asking for much of this forever and honestly it's not because most of us buy these things for fun, or just to be cool looking.  We buy them for work and whether your shooting a $500 portrait or a $285,000 advertising campaing, both hold equal importantce to the end user.

Now I would like to see annoucekina just go away because it makes to sense to me to annouce stuff that isn't selling the day you annouce it, or at least selling the next week.  Good God, the makers have two years to get ready.  That's a long time to plan for the big dance.

Theirry, you seem to be the defender of truth justice and everything Sinar and you answered most of my first questions, but the real question I have is when can you buy it?  Saying dealers are getting demos means nothing.  I would never demo a camera I couldn't buy on the day, period.

JR

[thsinar]

Amen, Ph.D. Edmund Ronald!

You must be taken very seriously, when spending your time to find a drink and afterwards complaining and criticizing that there was no beer offered, only coffee!

 

Thierry

I tested the MF cameras from a well known company at Photokina. I tried imaging a person, with studio flash, and the camera had a serious focus offset. I was given another camera sample, same problem. The rep agreed there was an issue, due to the "firmware". I now understand why a well-known photographer who is often heard from on the forums prefers to use an obsolete camera on the theory that it is well-matured.

Edmund

[eronald]

Amen, Ph.D. Edmund Ronald!

You must be taken very seriously, when spending your time to find a drink and afterwards complaining and criticizing that there was no beer offered, only coffee!

 

Thierry

Thierry, I was very careful here, I didn't name the product. Do you really want me to name it ? There were witnesses.
I can understand that MF bodies have teething problems. The thing is, by the time they are almost solved, the successor is already announced. James is very smart, he shoots with his zombie living-dead Contax which cannot fall sick anymore because it is mummified and embalmed. The only way to kill a Contax is, I guess, an axe.

Edmund

PS - if you had found me a decent drink, as promised on this forum, I wouldn't  have gone to test cameras. I would have been a happy drunk.

[thsinar]

Edmund,

I am WELL AWARE, that you didn't name it, and HOW CAREFUL you have been.

Again, AMEN to all you say!

As for the drink, I do not want to sound rude or not polite, and leave it to your judgment.

Best regards,
Thierry

Thierry, I was very careful here, I didn't name the product. Do you really want me to name it ? There were witnesses.
I can understand that MF bodies have teething problems. The thing is, by the time they are almost solved, the successor is already announced. James is very smart, he shoots with his zombie living-dead Contax which cannot fall sick anymore because it is mummified and embalmed. The only way to kill a Contax is, I guess, an axe.

Edmund

PS - if you had found me a decent drink, as promised on this forum, I wouldn't  have gone to test cameras. I would have been a happy drunk.

[lisa_r]

When you buy a full system (meaning body, DB, viewfinder) the "value" added by the dealer is 45%. Lense they want to push (meaning common types) have an "added value" of 17%-20%, while other lenses (the ones a serious photog wants to have) have an "added value" of 25%. On the backs without a body there is an "added value" of 45%, while the cheapest model (the one to get starters into the system) has an  All he has to do is moving boxes (not the ones on his shelves, but the ones he orders after I have called to buy something.)

Holy Moley - 45%??? No wonder these backs are so @%#&$ expensive.

Like the Ph.D., I was recently at a NY MF dealer, when he was showing me the new Mamiya kit with a 33mp back, the thing kept disconnecting itself from the computer. All I was thinking was, this guy has this camera day and night and still does not know how to keep it connected to a computer long enough for a demo? How is he going to provide me any Value Added Support then?? Indeed, I'll take the 45% V.A.S. tax and I promise never to ask you any questions ;-)

Meanwhile I recently shot some ads for some of the most expensive residences in the world (mile-high condo bldg in Dubai) with a 1Ds3, and they loved the files! No questions asked.

I have 3 5DIIs on order.

p.s. By the way Thierry, where can I get my hands on a Hy6 in NYC?

[froesner]

I do agree to what James and Epd said here lately. Although I am sort off a happy man with my H3D II 39 I, my glass and the up-coming tilt shift adaptor, I still feel that MF companies are about to render themselves obsolete. Mainly because they are so busy in the breathtaking race for superlatives ("Full" / "First" / "Biggest" ...). If you run at high speed you can not hear what people are telling you.

Maybe the H company has now realized that following the common MF business rules will lead to a fumble (being a German therefore soccer fan I hope I spelled that correctly).

Anyway, with increasing quality on the 35mm side and more and more sophisticated software it may not take a long time until the MF industry will not longer be able to base their sales pitch on superior resolution etc.

The image below was shot with a Leica M8, 4 frames handheld, stitched with AutoPanoPro and developed in Lightroom. Stitching and LR took me 30 minutes, with Genuine Fractals I created a 40 x 123 inch file form the original 10 x 31 inch, printed it on canvas, mounted it and deliverd the picture to my client who has already some large prints shot with my Hasselblad gear.

They were "amazed" about the "little details".

/Frank

[thsinar]

Frank,

that was the "Netherlands" vs. "France", wasn't it?

You're touching my sensitivity: bad memories for me!

Thierry

PS: nice shot, though

They were "amazed" about the "little details".

/Frank

[thsinar]

Disclaimer:

I can assure you that none of our distributors/dealers has such margins, as mentioned below. I believe that EPd did not mean Sinar distributors/dealers with his post, but I wish to make it clear. And if some wonder, the manufacturer I represent does neither have these margins.

Best regards,
Thierry

PS: one can buy online from Sinar Germany, since a while. And quite some systems have been sold this way

Photokina is good for many things, really. One MF brand was kind enough to hand out price lists with both dealer prices and end user prices on it. When you buy a full system (meaning body, DB, viewfinder) the "value" added by the dealer is 45%. Lense they want to push (meaning common types) have an "added value" of 17%-20%, while other lenses (the ones a serious photog wants to have) have an "added value" of 25%. On the backs without a body there is an "added value" of 45%, while the cheapest model (the one to get starters into the system) has an "added value" of 33%. Dealers can get a discount on full systems and backs, not on lenses. When a dealer sells you the "added value" of extended warranty he gets 50% of the deal. For all these "added values" I would expect a dealer to run errands for me. In reality I have NEVER needed any dealer support other than a standard warranty repair for which he had to take in my equipment and send it on to the factory. Usually the dealer was even reluctant to do that for me. I do not need a spoken manual from my dealer (I can read) and I do not need a cup of coffee, since coffee makes me shake. Most of the time when I want to buy something I just call my dealer and have it send to me. All he has to do is moving boxes (not the ones on his shelves, but the ones he orders after I have called to buy something.)

I would strongly suggest to Leaf, Sinar, Hasselblad and PhaseOne to offer two options to buy their stuff: 1. from a dealer, with added value, or 2. directly from the factory with no personal support on user level. Buyers would just have to send in for warranty repairs themselves and download manuals and firmware updates on their own. I often buy from an online computer shop that has it very clearly in their rules: "we can carry such low prices because we do not offer any support, other than factory warranty". For me this has worked very well. I've had a few warranty issues with them and they handled it just great. But I never called them to ask how to use the stuff I bought from them.

[froesner]

Frank,

that was the "Netherlands" vs. "France", wasn't it?

You're touching my sensitivity: bad memories for me!

Thierry

PS: nice shot, though

Yes it was. I have been there with the client mentioned above ... and he (the CEO) is french. Strange enough he still wanted to have this image hanging at his office wall

(for those who do not follow European soccer: France lost this game)

/F

[froesner]

PS: one can buy online from Sinar Germany, since a while. And quite some systems have been sold this way

... but you do not pass the VAR margin onto the one who purchases online do you?

/F

[gwhitf]

I would strongly suggest to Leaf, Sinar, Hasselblad and PhaseOne to offer two options to buy their stuff: 1. from a dealer, with added value, or 2. directly from the factory with no personal support on user level. Buyers would just have to send in for warranty repairs themselves and download manuals and firmware updates on their own. I often buy from an online computer shop that has it very clearly in their rules: "we can carry such low prices because we do not offer any support, other than factory warranty". For me this has worked very well. I've had a few warranty issues with them and they handled it just great. But I never called them to ask how to use the stuff I bought from them.

I agree with this "box pusher" approach in theory, but let's be honest -- how many buyers would pay the Value Added option, and thus, the dealer cannot survive. Only large corporations or maybe large catalogue houses would go for that VA option. So that probably wouldn't work in the real world.

What I love about this thread is that the fog about pricing is getting lifted, and some reality is creeping in here. Maybe it's the economy, and everything is creeping closer to the bone; who knows.

But I know that when I bought my second back, the dealer wanted an extra $1995 for "training and support", on top of the pretty much list price that I'd already paid. I did not exercise the $1995 option.

On my first back ever purchased, I was so freaked at the amount of money on the table that I insisted on a 30-day no questions asked return policy. This was an H1D, with the Dialysis Machine Hard Drive hanging off it. There were errors and a short in the HD cable, and I returned the whole system. Thank God I'd negotiated that return policy.

Enough time has passed. No more excuses. Especially at these prices. Imagine if you'd been the guy who paid full price for an Aptus 22, and had to fight Leaf 10 (and software. No way in hell.

No more excuses. Plug and play, (just like Canon), or send it back. End of story.

There are lots of pros using Canon. Not because they'd choose to -- because most of them are MF shooters, by choice. They use Canon because there's enough pressure from the job itself; the last thing they need are surprises from an expensive, highly-touted camera system.

[BJNY]

I agree with this "box pusher" approach in theory, but let's be honest -- how many buyers would pay the Value Added option, and thus, the dealer cannot survive. Only large corporations or maybe large catalogue houses would go for that VA option. So that probably wouldn't work in the real world.

Dealers survived selling medium format standard kits averaging $3,000 prior to digital.

[lisa_r]

There are lots of pros using Canon. Not because they'd choose to -- because most of them are MF shooters, by choice. They use Canon because there's enough pressure from the job itself; the last thing they need are surprises from an expensive, highly-touted camera system.

What's interesting is looking around on the web and coming across stuff that you would swear had that MF "look", and then you look at the exif, and it's Canon:

http://www.lundlund.com/photographers/call...oltz/8641/51109

http://www.lundlund.com/photographers/marc...sson/8837/52906

http://www.lundlund.com/photographers/marc...sson/8837/52912

http://www.lundlund.com/photographers/marc...sson/8837/52903

No doubt many of these people intended to be using MF, but didn't. (The above shots are 1Ds3, by the way. Not mine though.)

[jing q]

I am giving this medium format digital back situation abit more time, since I am already invested in it
But let me state that it is ludicrous that backs this expensive cannot work problem-free.
I can't remember how many jobs I've switched from using my Leaf to my Canon because the back stalled up or disconnected from the computer, and my talents/models/subject was just sitting there.

Yes I think I have a 5DII on my order list too...

[TMARK]

What's interesting is looking around on the web and coming across stuff that you would swear had that MF "look", and then you look at the exif, and it's Canon:

http://www.lundlund.com/photographers/call...oltz/8641/51109

http://www.lundlund.com/photographers/marc...sson/8837/52906

No doubt many of these people intended to be using MF, but didn't. (Both the above shots are 1Ds3, by the way. Not mine though.)

I was dumping a new back-up drive into Portfolio when I noticed several images I shot in 2006 looked pretty nice.  I looked at the exif and they were 1ds2 or 5D.  I printed them on photo rag at 11x14 and compared them to some P30+ prints.  No difference in the print.  OK, the Phase prints were smoother, sort of.  

In response to the poll, I'll buy another back when I can get a Sinar 54lv for the same price as a 5D2, and I'll slap that back on a Hy6 or even on the RZ.

I'll tell you what made me think twice about Phase:  pricing the AFD3 with a three year warranty at $7000; pricing the new D lenses higher than H and Rollei; pricing the P65 at $42k, coming so late to the game with C1 Pro (still not out), the pricing of the Boris lens, etc. . . . They were starting to sound like the Bush administration after Hurricane Katrina, or the McCain campaign talking about Mrs. Palin's foreign policy qualifications.  Just insanity.  I think their business judgment is questionable.  Last summer every jackass with a 401k knew that times were going to get rough.  Great! Phase, a multimillion Euro business, decides its a great time to sell a $42,000 piece of hardware no one NEEDS, and to similarly price a an improved Mamiya camera at $7,000 which is the same as a Made In Germany Uberkamera from Rollei.    Meanwhile, a professional camera company like Canon rolls out a 14 bit, 21 megapixel 4 frame per second dslr priced at $2700, a camera that can (and will) shoot 95% of magazine assignments and 95% of $300k campaigns.  The last 5% might require a removable back, such as for arch. or food, or table top.  Oh yeah, and it shoots HD video, and it just happens that I now shoot more video than stills.  By the way, my partners and I ordered four 5d2's.  

I think Phase will be purchased and have its technology and R&D assimilated into the buyer.  I think the digital side of Sinar and Leaf will have to become two brands in the same company, with all of the backs being the Hy6 mount, and all fitting the Sinar camera solutions as well as the Hy6.  Blad will be fine.

[shelby_lewis]

What's interesting is looking around on the web and coming across stuff that you would swear had that MF "look", and then you look at the exif, and it's Canon:

http://www.lundlund.com/photographers/call...oltz/8641/51109

http://www.lundlund.com/photographers/marc...sson/8837/52906

http://www.lundlund.com/photographers/marc...sson/8837/52912

http://www.lundlund.com/photographers/marc...sson/8837/52903

No doubt many of these people intended to be using MF, but didn't. (The above shots are 1Ds3, by the way. Not mine though.)

I don't know... nice shots, but wouldn't be my first choice at shots that have the "mf" look. They don't have a roundness about them that I'm used to seeing in work from people like Graham or Andre or Frank (or... or.... or... on here). But I'll agree totally with you in that there's a lot of good canon stuff out there... some of it quite "dimensional".

Anywho... at web res it's often hard to tell (for me) anyway.