Civility

[Rob C]

That´s now more than one thread that has been locked down recently due to poster belligerence and lack of politeness or basic good manners.

It, the one on contemporary monetary chaos, had promised to be interesting from the point of view that one might better understand how it affected people on this site, what they felt about it and so on. But we couldn´t leave it alone, could we, we had to fight and, as a result, blow it once more.

And yet we expect better relations between countries, never mind individuals, on an international scale...

Dream on.

Rob C

[dalethorn]

That´s now more than one thread that has been locked down recently due to poster belligerence and lack of politeness or basic good manners.
It, the one on contemporary monetary chaos, had promised to be interesting from the point of view that one might better understand how it affected people on this site, what they felt about it and so on. But we couldn´t leave it alone, could we, we had to fight and, as a result, blow it once more.
And yet we expect better relations between countries, never mind individuals, on an international scale...
Dream on.
Rob C
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225840\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

There are patterns in the real world we can learn and borrow from. One example, global war and death by the hundred millions, is no longer possible due to nuclear and other weapons. But there is one more - when countries are negotiating, their teams are well aware of each other, and the various disinformation techniques they might try to sneak into the discussion. But here on the Web, we don't have that intel. If you give a mfr. a bad product review, they may put their resources against you to smear you, or at the least, bury you in postings that effectively kill you off. I would like to see more awareness of this, without descending into paranoia and conspiracy chatter. Accusations of same are a very effective technique in silencing opposition.

[David Sutton]

Hi Rob. I'm glad you've posted this. I have also quietly been wondering about this over the last few days. I wonder if part of what's happening is the same underlying cause that allows banks to lend to those who can't afford it, or for people to say about those who have left their homes because they can't manage repayments "it's their own fault" : hard-heartedness.
On the other hand we may just have teenagers on site. I remember absolutely knowing everything at that time. I'm afraid I don't know much at all now really, and at this rate it appears that when it comes time to go to the next world I'll do so knowing nothing.   So anyway, if that is the case here then there is little that can be done about it.
I am thinking of someone who I admire greatly who commented about trust, the value of open-mindedness and the worth of our intellectual possessions: blessed are the poor in spirit....blessed are the meek...
Cheers, David S

[dalethorn]

Hi Rob. I'm glad you've posted this. I have also quietly been wondering about this over the last few days. I wonder if part of what's happening is the same underlying cause that allows banks to lend to those who can't afford it, or for people to say about those who have left their homes because they can't manage repayments "it's their own fault" : hard-heartedness.
On the other hand we may just have teenagers on site. I remember absolutely knowing everything at that time. I'm afraid I don't know much at all now really, and at this rate it appears that when it comes time to go to the next world I'll do so knowing nothing.   So anyway, if that is the case here then there is little that can be done about it.
I am thinking of someone who I admire greatly who commented about trust, the value of open-mindedness and the worth of our intellectual possessions: blessed are the poor in spirit....blessed are the meek...
Cheers, David S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225862\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I grew up in a major industrial city. If you wanted civility, you hung out on the west side and sipped tea with the monied locals. If you wanted to drink and raise hell, you just mosied over to where the working class lived. And BTW, the civility of the monied set was just a veneer for their ruthless exploitation of the working class, who weren't fooled, but didn't much care anyway. We're the same humans as always, and for many of us, civility is just a mask for what we do in secret (Germs, ~1979).

[BernardLanguillier]

The amount of manipulation, lies and hypocrisy underlying some major society topics in large countries is such that discussions are bound to trigger some very violent reactions. People still don't like being raped.

The key problem really is the belief that we are still in a world where we can afford to be selfish and that selfishness is not going to backfire at us, or at our children, a few years down the road.

Just watch once more the first few minutes of Spiderman, and you'll understand.

The same thing applies to wars, financial crisis, environment,...

All the lies aimed at hiding the selfish motives underlying huge actions are tiring people to an amazing extend and triggering anger and resentment.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Ray]

Posters should realise by now, if they start calling each other idiots and fools, Michael is likely to close the thread.

I tuned in last night to a heated debate on TV between two economics experts(Peter Schiff and Nariman Behravesh) who have radically different views on how to solve the current world economic crisis.

Despite the utmost gravity of the issue, these two experts still managed to be more civil than some LL forum members discussing the merits of their P&S cameras   .

[HiltonP]

I have been participating in various discussion forums for over a decade. In that time I have witnessed the ebb and flow of membership, and the changing moods of the content. Add to that the "Net persona" factor of being able to "be" someone in words what you are not in flesh and blood, and we have a volatile mix. I am left in no doubt that the tone of forums changes along with the environment in which we find ourselves, wherever in the world that might be.

Bernard touches on this earlier . . . We live in a time when the trials and tribulations of the entire world are laid before us every minute of the day by satellite television and Net feeds. We are exposed to daily breaking news which previously would have passed us by, or at least have been old or second-hand news by the time it had reached us. Sadly, good news does not make good news, so we are bombarded with bad, or at least negative news. The politics, finances, environmental, and social woes (both ours, and everyone elses in the world) are laid on our television, radio, Net and dinner table doorsteps.

The whole international and domestic mood becomes tense, with people becoming concerned for themselves, their families, their countries, and even their world. We are all affected in different ways, some more than others, but we are all affected nonetheless. This is reflected in our relationships with others, and that includes those we have on the Net. I believe the instances of aggession we see flaring up on discussion forums is an insight into the levels of pent up tension, frustration, and aggession in society as a whole.

[dalethorn]

......Despite the utmost gravity of the issue, these two experts still managed to be more civil than some LL forum members discussing the merits of their P&S cameras   .
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225947\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Personal cameras will do more to change the world than the same-old same-old economic tensions that have been with us forever. These crises keep the sheeple distracted while they get fleeced. In the meantime, progressive thinkers concentrate on what really matters - progressive issues, which don't include basic animal survival issues like food, clothing, shelter, and transportation.

[sojournerphoto]

Hi Rob. I'm glad you've posted this. I have also quietly been wondering about this over the last few days. I wonder if part of what's happening is the same underlying cause that allows banks to lend to those who can't afford it, or for people to say about those who have left their homes because they can't manage repayments "it's their own fault" : hard-heartedness.
On the other hand we may just have teenagers on site. I remember absolutely knowing everything at that time. I'm afraid I don't know much at all now really, and at this rate it appears that when it comes time to go to the next world I'll do so knowing nothing.   So anyway, if that is the case here then there is little that can be done about it.
I am thinking of someone who I admire greatly who commented about trust, the value of open-mindedness and the worth of our intellectual possessions: blessed are the poor in spirit....blessed are the meek...
Cheers, David S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225862\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm glad as well. I've almost given up trying to wade through the rude, belligerent and pointless arguing over brand and model etc. The cynical view that civilty is simply a veneer is certainly true for some, but the cynic will never have the faith to see that it's not a universal truth about all men.

David, I too know far less than I did a few years ago, but perhaps that's a good qualification for the next world:) However, I do have a notion that the someone we both admire so much counts kindness to be of great worth.

Mike

[plawrence]

That´s now more than one thread that has been locked down recently due to poster belligerence and lack of politeness or basic good manners.

It, the one on contemporary monetary chaos, had promised to be interesting from the point of view that one might better understand how it affected people on this site, what they felt about it and so on. But we couldn´t leave it alone, could we, we had to fight and, as a result, blow it once more.

And yet we expect better relations between countries, never mind individuals, on an international scale...

Dream on.

Rob C
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225840\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Honestly, it's easy to blame others for the lack of civility in some of these threads, but it's really a matter of self-control.  Specifically, controlling *your own* response to a belligerent post.  It's simply best to ignore and not respond to these types of posts.  But if you feel that you must respond, then respond (and continue to respond) back in a CIVIL manner not taking the bait of the belligerent poster.

If everyone who prefers a civil discussion used a bit more self-control and didn't participate in any of these flame fests, then these uncivil posters would undoubtedly go away.

It's just a matter of self-control: your self-control.

- Peter

[jule]

I believe the instances of aggession we see flaring up on discussion forums is an insight into the levels of pent up tension, frustration, and aggession in society as a whole.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225974\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes Hilton, this is most probably true, and yet I do not believe this is any excuse to speak in an uncivilised manner to any other human being. (I am not implying that you think so either.)

I have often wondered if those who spoke in such a disrespectful and belligerent way to others on forums, would actually speak in that manner in person.

If they wouldn't, the impersonality and anonymity of the internet must provide the haven and excuse for them to think they have the right for bullying, arrogance and disrespect towards others.

If they would speak to other people in that way in person...well...who knows??

The behaviour we see on forums will to a point reflect what is in the community. There is anger and aggression, war and violence, abuse and rage as an expression of deeper discontent. The internet is just another medium where these traits of humanity manifest. As in any home, business or organisation there are rules based upon what the wise amongst us think is ethically correct behaviour. Michael enacts this by closing threads, for which I personally applaud.

There is also kindness and support in the community and this is reflected also on forums. Rob C asked in a post once why there were not many female posters on the site. I personally became tired of the banal bickering and disrespectful language between many, which I learned to ignore, but it was the kindness, generosity and support from so many other members which was the thing which kept me involved in the site.

Julie

[dalethorn]

It might be helpful to step back and look at civility as a practical issue. What is it useful for? How is it useful? What are its parameters? Are the people who practice it best really sincere, or are they manipulative and self-serving under the veneer of civility? What should happen to people who post really civil text, but in doing so, are really working to steer others away from speaking on "controversial" issues? Is there a book that describes how to be civil, and still protect onesself from being marginalized unfairly?

[dalethorn]

One more thing - in real neighborhoods, if you want civility all the time, you have to pay. It's not free. You know what I'm talking about. Those "nice" places cost a lot more than the places on the south end of town, where the pollution blows to when the factories are operating. Same with the Web. You want civility for free, good luck.

[Ray]

What should happen to people who post really civil text, but in doing so, are really working to steer others away from speaking on "controversial" issues? [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226157\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You should raise your concerns or suspicions in a civil manner and always in reference to facts and evidence that might support such concerns.

Rudeness usually results from an inability to address the points raised (in an opposing argument) in a logical and coherent manner which is supported by facts or some sort of compelling evidence.

Rather than be seen as possibly losing the argument, the rude person will often resort to the 'ad hominem' attack, a latin phrase which basically translates as 'argument against the man'.

The ad hominem attack does not necessarily have to take the form of a blatant insult, like calling someone an idiot, but can take the form of any ruse to divert attention from the substance of the argument towards the characteristics of the person. The mud-slinging and smear tactics of some political elections are good examples of the ad hominem attack.

Another example, that is occasionally seen on this forum when someone doesn't like another poster's argument and is unable to present a reasonable counterpoint to the argument, is to call the poster a 'troll'.

[BernardLanguillier]

One more thing - in real neighborhoods, if you want civility all the time, you have to pay. It's not free. You know what I'm talking about. Those "nice" places cost a lot more than the places on the south end of town, where the pollution blows to when the factories are operating. Same with the Web. You want civility for free, good luck.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226166\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That is IMHO the result of a choice of society.

There are simply no neighborhoods in Japan where I live, where I feel a lack of civility. This is not a cultural thing, it is an economical things. The larger the differences of revenue between people, the larger the gap in civility.

The wealth of a country might be the result of the brilliance of its elites, but the quality of life in a country is mostly the result of the level of education and wealth of its poorer citizens.

This is not really a left/right political issue. Suburds of Paris are as un-civil as those in Washington DC. It is a conscious decision of the group to favour balance, respect and stability over selfish wealth of a few individuals.

Cheers,
Bernard

[HiltonP]

Yes Hilton, this is most probably true, and yet I do not believe this is any excuse to speak in an uncivilised manner to any other human being. (I am not implying that you think so either.)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226144\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Agree 100% . . . and yes, it is no excuse whatsoever.

I have often wondered if those who spoke in such a disrespectful and belligerent way to others on forums, would actually speak in that manner in person.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226144\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hense my comment about the "Net persona" . . . I believe many of the aggressive comments made in discussion forums eminate from people who would not be capable of such action face-to-face, but are happy to do so from behind the safety of their computer screens. It's sad.  

At the risk of sounding prude, or preachy, I also cannot help but feel that the excessive amount of shouting, ranting, anger, and violence we see on television these days is having a negative effect. Reality shows specialise in humilating people publically, not to mention the sleazier talk shows, and even our modern sports celebrate brute force over skill. They're shown all around the world and we're becoming numbed to it. Turn to any number of television channels and within an hour you will hear someone shouting and ranting. They don't appear to be able to converse normally anymore. I cannot recall EVER raising my voice in my home, certainly never with my parents, and never with my wife, and I don't believe I am any the worse off for it.  

[Moynihan]

That´s now more than one thread that has been locked down recently due to poster belligerence and lack of politeness or basic good manners....
Rob C
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225840\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have noticed this a little, but again, this site is mild compared to others. I hope, with the moderator's help, it can continue to be a more polite site.
As has been said before, forums, lacking physical proximity and perception of body language, tend to extremes in communication. The virtual world lacks most of the evolved ques for gauging alturism value (in the ethological sense) in people's communication, often only leaving symbolic word-tags for folks to emotionally react to.

[Moynihan]

I just went through my usual quick tour of threads, and noticed the " Are we going into another depression?..." thread was locked.

Frankly, I was surprised that one ran as long as it did. The subject (money) is bound to invoke argument. Add to that, posters from different countries (or in the U.S. case, different viewpoints, given the apparent polarization in the country), and you will often have acrimony.

I would thank Mike for letting it run as long as he did. It was interesting.

[dalethorn]

That is IMHO the result of a choice of society. There are simply no neighborhoods in Japan where I live, where I feel a lack of civility. This is not a cultural thing, it is an economical things. The larger the differences of revenue between people, the larger the gap in civility. The wealth of a country might be the result of the brilliance of its elites, but the quality of life in a country is mostly the result of the level of education and wealth of its poorer citizens. This is not really a left/right political issue. Suburds of Paris are as un-civil as those in Washington DC. It is a conscious decision of the group to favour balance, respect and stability over selfish wealth of a few individuals.
Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226201\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This seems logical, based on comparison rather than pure theory. The next trick then, how do we tame ruthless capitalism? Has it ever been done? Why are Americans so enchanted with talk shows that are filled with so many threats?

[dalethorn]

You should raise your concerns or suspicions in a civil manner and always in reference to facts and evidence that might support such concerns......
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226196\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

How well would civility work when some clever person with an agenda (and great civility) posts lengthy opposing responses, with no facts, to an original challenge such as "this product promo makes false claims...." etc? Whistleblowers, dissidents, consumer advocates have all faced these orchestrated attacks, and almost always lose. How can civility work against powerful forces such as megacorporations?