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Author Topic: Hasselblad at Photokina  (Read 58110 times)

Photomangreg

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« Reply #100 on: October 01, 2008, 06:05:30 pm »

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People do it all the time. There is a Hassy for sale right now H39 for just under 13k . People change there mind or lose interest but that is a big cut for a hobbyist
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226160\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

There is also a Canon 5D on ebay right now for around 800 bucks, the initial cost of a 5D was around $3000, thats 26.6% of the original cost.  the H3D39 was originally $34,000, selling it at 13,000 is 38% of the original price.

Do you really expect technology products to hold their value??
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Guy Mancuso

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« Reply #101 on: October 01, 2008, 06:06:18 pm »

I can't answer for Phase why those items are not out they did use there money on R&D to come up with a P65 like it or not that is what they did. If you don't want to buy that product than that is okay there are others but if there is no revenue there may not be anyone to buy from. Companies can only afford to lower prices to a point that if there is no profit than they go out of business. If the market keeps forcing them down in price at SOME point they will say we can't take the loses and fold up there tents. The question for us is do you want these companies to be in business and survive or watch or our MF industry fold up, let's face it there are only so many MF buyers out there, we are nothing in the industry as a percentage. Like I said it is a catch 22 and you can only take so much in losses as a company.
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Guy Mancuso

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« Reply #102 on: October 01, 2008, 06:12:34 pm »

Quote
There is also a Canon 5D on ebay right now for around 800 bucks, the initial cost of a 5D was around $3000, thats 26.6% of the original cost.  the H3D39 was originally $34,000, selling it at 13,000 is 38% of the original price.

Do you really expect technology products to hold their value??
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226169\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


No and you missed the whole point. i could care less about the used market it is what it is. I just made a point about a 10 k loss on paper in a couple weeks . I am concerned about the new market and the devaluing of the products that may put companies out of business or merge with others and than no real products for us to buy.

We need to take the YOU out of the conversation and put your shoes in the MF companies looking at this and what you as the CEO of those companies would do to survive with a limited market. Cut costs is the answer. cut R&D, cut Service , cut product development, cut warranties, cut jobs, raise prices on essential parts and service.

Okay enough of my opinion on this but this is a danger area like it or not
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 06:14:26 pm by Guy Mancuso »
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Photomangreg

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« Reply #103 on: October 01, 2008, 06:14:18 pm »

Hasselblad announced and shipped a 16mp DB for the V series about 2 years ago for under $10,000, this has the same sensor and technology that used to cost over $20,000.  At the same time they came out with their 39mp back for around 32,000.  Now they've dropped the price of the 39 and have come out with a 60mp for 36,000.  

It seems to me that the high end back is always going to be at or near the same price, but what is becoming older technology, the 39 in this instance, will drop in price.

Hasselblad has covered their R&D expenditures put into the 39 and then some, now they will use the revenue from the 50 and 60's to work on newer products.
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Henry Goh

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« Reply #104 on: October 01, 2008, 06:16:02 pm »

It just struck me that about 1 or 2 years ago we were just mumbling that these MFDB manufacturers were using their trade-in programs to keep used backs off the second-hand market.  Hence someone who has little budget just could not buy into a MFDB system.  Now that Hasselblad has decided to lower prices and forego the trade-up route, why are people still complaining?

The worst thing that can happen to MFDBs is for manufacturers in China to get hold of the knowledge and technology and then make backs for 1/16 of European and US prices.  That will put ALL the current makers out of business.
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dustblue

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« Reply #105 on: October 01, 2008, 06:28:54 pm »

let's make a simple model:

Assume:
we need 10k NEW MFD cameras a year, the manufacturing fee for each is 5k, the R&D
for this NEW camera is 50million(for EVERY manufacturer), then:

If there are 5 manufacturers, they all share the market, then the cost for each NEW camera is (50million*5/10k)+5k=30K

If there are 2 manufacturers, they all share the market, then the cost for each NEW camera is (50million*2/10k)+5k=15K

Now do your really want to pay the double price just for having some other choices??

I still didn't mention that if the price is 30K, then you won't see a 10k-buyers-market/year, much less than that. Then the price should not be 30k either, 50k, maybe, just like P65+ or AFI10.



Quote
But Canon is selling hundreds of other product to make up for the 5DII as a loss leader. MF companies don't have that power.

For example does anyone know how small Alpa is. Answer last I heard 3 people.
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dustblue

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« Reply #106 on: October 01, 2008, 06:36:02 pm »

Dont worry, we have cheap labors here, not cheap R&D:)

Quote
It just struck me that about 1 or 2 years ago we were just mumbling that these MFDB manufacturers were using their trade-in programs to keep used backs off the second-hand market.  Hence someone who has little budget just could not buy into a MFDB system.  Now that Hasselblad has decided to lower prices and forego the trade-up route, why are people still complaining?

The worst thing that can happen to MFDBs is for manufacturers in China to get hold of the knowledge and technology and then make backs for 1/16 of European and US prices.  That will put ALL the current makers out of business.
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SeanBK

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« Reply #107 on: October 01, 2008, 06:42:25 pm »

Really, I don't get Phase One at all!!! They don't make the Sensor. They have the same mount for the sensor (as the physical size is same for all sensors) for all their backs. Kodak gives them the algorithms to convert the data from the capture to the cards. The same algorithms is given to Hasselblad. There are parameters they follow, where assumption for RGB values can be assigned, as the back maker see it fit. That's why the canned colours are slightly different from different backs. The frame of the back is still the same (think like a car manufacturer), for all their fricking models. They obviously don't listen to the photographers, as few things we ask, they don't put it in the back. They don't make the LCD screen, so tell me what do they need R & D money for?
   There are so..o many business that survives, while the climate is changing, so they better adopt. Look at the watch industry, Seiko & Timex were going to destroy the Patek Phillipe, Rolex, Tag Hauer.. but they still sell those expensive watches, go to your local Border's (Chapters for all those Canadian..eh) there is even magazine that just talks @ "Watches" go figure!! Only thing Phase One has achived is you can park your Jeep on the back & take pics in rain - though don't know what happens to fungus? Now they are going to be partners with $20k + Leica - good Luck!!
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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #108 on: October 01, 2008, 07:23:15 pm »

Quote
The question for us is do you want these companies to be in business and survive or watch or our MF industry fold up, let's face it there are only so many MF buyers out there, we are nothing in the industry as a percentage. Like I said it is a catch 22 and you can only take so much in losses as a company.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226170\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Guy,

Some answers:

- nobody forced Hassy's price drop, it is their own decision,
- more diversity is better, but there are thousand of companies going down everyday. Their common characteristics is their inability to produce products at a price point where people are interested in being them. It is probably sad, but it is inevitable,
- if there is 40.000 US$ value in a P65+ considering the VARs, etc... then Phaseone will keep doing good business. If there isn't, then their price point is off and I don't see what good it does to whom to keep such a high price if customers don't see the value, or the difference in value. Owning the best gear in the world might have value as a luxury item, but makes little sense for working pros if the performance gap is too small compared to the price gap (this is the difference with high end hifi),
- the fundamental problem is not the price drop of Hassy, the problem is that a HDII39 with a 39MP resolution was until a few days ago 12 times more expensive than another excellent camera with less than twice as few pixels... There are few domains of human activity where working tools with such a small gap of performance are sold at such different prices. Notice that I am not referring to them as luxury items but as working tools,
- the inflation of price of high end photographic gear in the last 5 years is also unique. Until one month ago, it was 5 times more expensive to buy a high end MF set up compared to 5 years before. The price of film of course comes into play, but high eng 35 mm digital cameras also save on film cost and are only twice more expensive that their previous film counterparts were. It could be argued that the 1ds3 was still 4 times more expensive, but that is also an anomally that is now being corrected,
- my view has always been that MF used to be a pretty large market, and that its shrinking is mostly the consequence of the late availability of suitable MFDB and their high prices. I don't believe that high prices are a consequence of a shrinking need for MF, even if the late start did indeed induce a market shrinking. Even if 35 mm digital is now much better, then are tens of thousands of photographers out there who believe that the look of MF is different. If Nikon indeed did decide to go MX, it means that they are seeing it as a growth opportunity, meaning that there is a market for MF still.

High prices are the result of some business decisions, in terms of expetced ROI timeframe,... not necesseraliy a consequence of the actual market needs. A company like Nikon has the ability to lose money for 2 years on MX, and then start to generate revenue once the market has been re-generated. I see this as the best possible thing for photographers.

Cheers,
Bernard

BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #109 on: October 01, 2008, 07:26:21 pm »

Quote
Really, I don't get Phase One at all!!! They don't make the Sensor. They have the same mount for the sensor (as the physical size is same for all sensors) for all their backs. Kodak gives them the algorithms to convert the data from the capture to the cards. The same algorithms is given to Hasselblad. There are parameters they follow, where assumption for RGB values can be assigned, as the back maker see it fit. That's why the canned colours are slightly different from different backs. The frame of the back is still the same (think like a car manufacturer), for all their fricking models. They obviously don't listen to the photographers, as few things we ask, they don't put it in the back. They don't make the LCD screen, so tell me what do they need R & D money for?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226182\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yet, they manage to get 10 minutes clean exposures from that same sensor, while Hassy can hardly do 64 seconds... so there might be some R&D being done wouldn't you think?

Unfortunately, it would seem that this strenght of Phaseone will be a bit gone with the P65+.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 07:27:05 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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Guy Mancuso

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« Reply #110 on: October 01, 2008, 07:37:33 pm »

Quote
Guy,

Some answers:

- nobody forced Hassy's price drop, it is their own decision,
- more diversity is better, but there are thousand of companies going down everyday. Their common characteristics is their inability to produce products at a price point where people are interested in being them. It is probably sad, but it is inevitable,
- if there is 40.000 US$ value in a P65+ considering the VARs, etc... then Phaseone will keep doing good business. If there isn't, then their price point is off and I don't see what good it does to whom to keep such a high price if customers don't see the value, or the difference in value. Owning the best gear in the world might have value as a luxury item, but makes little sense for working pros if the performance gap is too small compared to the price gap (this is the difference with high end hifi),
- the fundamental problem is not the price drop of Hassy, the problem is that a HDII39 with a 39MP resolution was until a few days ago 12 times more expensive than another excellent camera with less than twice as few pixels... There are few domains of human activity where working tools with such a small gap of performance are sold at such different prices. Notice that I am not referring to them as luxury items but as working tools,
- the inflation of price of high end photographic gear in the last 5 years is also unique. Until one month ago, it was 5 times more expensive to buy a high end MF set up compared to 5 years before. The price of film of course comes into play, but high eng 35 mm digital cameras also save on film cost and are only twice more expensive that their previous film counterparts were. It could be argued that the 1ds3 was still 4 times mor

e expensive, but that is also an anomally that is now being corrected,
- my view has always been that MF used to be a pretty large market, and that its shrinking is mostly the consequence of the late availability of suitable MFDB and their high prices. I don't believe that high prices are a consequence of a shrinking need for MF, even if the late start did indeed induce a market shrinking. Even if 35 mm digital is now much better, then are tens of thousands of photographers out there who believe that the look of MF is different. If Nikon indeed did decide to go MX, it means that they are seeing it as a growth opportunity, meaning that there is a market for MF still.

High prices are the result of some business decisions, in terms of expetced ROI timeframe,... not necesseraliy a consequence of the actual market needs. A company like Nikon has the ability to lose money for 2 years on MX, and then start to generate revenue once the market has been re-generated. I see this as the best possible thing for photographers.

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226185\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Good points Bernard , i guess i just don't want to wake up one day and see 3 mergers , 2 companies folding and nothing really great to buy from the companies we do business with today. Hate that sink or swim stuff but it is reality. And yes I agree Nikon and/or Canon can sneak in here real easy with there large revenue and try and corner this market also. I guess just a few too many question marks hanging around that bug me. Have a good night. Oops it maybe morning for you . LOL
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 07:38:44 pm by Guy Mancuso »
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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #111 on: October 01, 2008, 07:56:22 pm »

Quote
Good points Bernard , i guess i just don't want to wake up one day and see 3 mergers , 2 companies folding and nothing really great to buy from the companies we do business with today. Hate that sink or swim stuff but it is reality. And yes I agree Nikon and/or Canon can sneak in here real easy with there large revenue and try and corner this market also. I guess just a few too many question marks hanging around that bug me. Have a good night. Oops it maybe morning for you . LOL
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Good night to you Guy, it is already morning already around here.

Cheers,
Bernard

SeanBK

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« Reply #112 on: October 01, 2008, 08:50:52 pm »

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Yet, they manage to get 10 minutes clean exposures from that same sensor, while Hassy can hardly do 64 seconds... so there might be some R&D being done wouldn't you think? .....
Cheers,
Bernard
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touche'  
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VanKou

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« Reply #113 on: October 01, 2008, 09:22:13 pm »

I think the price drop is great and I don't care why they did it.  However, I do believe that MFDBs and cameras are still very expensive.  Correct me if I am wrong but
the price of a film MF workhorse (Mamiya RZ, Hasselblad 500series) was, with a lens, about $3400 while a 35mm workhorse, like EOS1 VHS or Nikon F5/F6 is about $2,000.  So, you are looking at a bit over 50% price differential.  That I would like to see with the MFDB.  With 1DsMkIII being aroung $8K, I would like to see the start base of MFDB cameras to start around $12K.  That would make sense.  With the base being at $18K, I still feel that they are overpriced (I am excluding the P20+ and P21+ which offer resolution less that what a 35mm offers.  I believe that they are very overpriced at $14.5K for P21+ with the PhaseOne camera and I am also excluding the also overpriced Hasselblad CFV back on the 503C).

Just my thoughts.
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BrianSmith

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« Reply #114 on: October 01, 2008, 09:43:32 pm »

Quote
If you don't want to buy that product than that is okay there are others but if there is no revenue there may not be anyone to buy from. Companies can only afford to lower prices to a point that if there is no profit than they go out of business. If the market keeps forcing them down in price at SOME point they will say we can't take the loses and fold up there tents. The question for us is do you want these companies to be in business and survive or watch or our MF industry fold up, let's face it there are only so many MF buyers out there, we are nothing in the industry as a percentage. Like I said it is a catch 22 and you can only take so much in losses as a company.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226170\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

As an Aptus 75S user I have more allegiance to Leaf than to anybody, but every Digital Back maker has tried to sell me a new back in the last year and I've told them all the same thing:

"If you want to survive you're going to have to lower - not raise - your prices."

I'm actually surprised as hell that Hasselblad was the company that listened, but good for them.

If the others go out of business it's because they didn't listen to their customers.

That's Business 101.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 10:39:52 pm by BrianSmith »
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TMARK

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« Reply #115 on: October 01, 2008, 10:26:12 pm »

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As an Aptus 75S owner I have more allegiance to Leaf than to anybody, but every Digital Back maker has tried to sell me a new back in the last year and I've told them all the same thing:

"If you want to survive you're going to have to lower - not raise - your prices."

I'm actually surprised as hell that Hasselblad was the company that listened, but good for them.

If the others go out of business it's because they didn't listen to their customers.

That's Business 101.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226212\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Word up on this.  I'm not going to donate money to Phase or any other MFDB maker to ensure that they can gauge me on the next model they introduce that has almost nothing I'm interested in or need.  I've said the same thing you said to them:  lower pries, be a high end commodity, like a BMW or Porsche.  The logic being proposed here is lunacy for a business owner.
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James R Russell

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« Reply #116 on: October 01, 2008, 11:23:46 pm »

Quote
Good points Bernard , i guess i just don't want to wake up one day and see 3 mergers , 2 companies folding and nothing really great to buy from the companies we do business with today. Hate that sink or swim stuff but it is reality. And yes I agree Nikon and/or Canon can sneak in here real easy with there large revenue and try and corner this market also. I guess just a few too many question marks hanging around that bug me. Have a good night. Oops it maybe morning for you . LOL
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Man, you don't, I don't nobody that doesn't own these companies controls anything, mergers, growth, strategic alliances,  lower prices, or trick non/trick technology.

They can do what they want and we can buy them or not.  65mpx . . . don't understand it, even for 30 grand but 45, I'd put my money in Bank Stocks first and that will happen when . . . well I think we all know when that will happen.

Still I am amazed after 5 years we're talking the same ol stuff.  Waiting for an lcd as good as a point and shoot, iso that will match a camera that cost 1/10 of the price and software that comes out on time.

If any of them wants my money, give me something I can't do without, or do what Hasselblad did, sell it for less.

JR
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pss

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« Reply #117 on: October 02, 2008, 01:14:18 am »

i just don't think that the one company that will be left after pricing everybody out of the market will listen more to its customers then the 4 that are around now....

so i guess regardless, we will never get clean high iso and a useable screen with DMF....
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Henry Goh

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« Reply #118 on: October 02, 2008, 01:21:32 am »

Quote
i just don't think that the one company that will be left after pricing everybody out of the market will listen more to its customers then the 4 that are around now....

so i guess regardless, we will never get clean high iso and a useable screen with DMF....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226245\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Actually I have a different view - Hasselblad chose to lower price but someone else may feel that they do not want to lower price in order to compete and so they may just listen to this board and give us better LCDs, better noise at higher ISOs, better battery life, lighter backs, better reliability, better software, faster delivery of software updates etc purely to compete with Hasselblad.  May not be a bad deal having more pressure on manufacturers to get them to improve.  Look at Phaseone, they take ages to put C1 V4 out and where is C1 Pro V4?
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MarkKay

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« Reply #119 on: October 02, 2008, 02:10:00 am »

It is interesting to read all these opinions.  Does anybody really know what the profit margin for each of the Hasselblad and Phase products?  I mean how much does it really cost to make each camera (including cost of the sensor) and lens.  Of course some of the profit margin goes to R&D but I would really like to know the bottom line.  
 
I for one am glad there is competition and more reasonable pricing.  Mark
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