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Author Topic: Nikon MX looks less attractive with new MF prices  (Read 5540 times)

Dan Wells

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Nikon MX looks less attractive with new MF prices
« on: September 28, 2008, 11:02:55 am »

The persistent rumor of a medium format Nikon seems to make less and less sense as the prices of other MF systems drop. With the entry to all the other systems at $25,000 - $30,000, Nikon had a lot of room to jump in , even with a camera that had a lot of tradeoffs and was untested, undercutting all the incumbents. Now that the entry price of everything else is around $15,000 - $18,000, much of that breathing room is gone. Nikon can't charge what any of the mature players do, unless they bring comparable flexibility in lenses and other options (back upgrades and service). This board is full of stories of the medium format companies offering very good service that only a tiny company can offer - representatives of several of the manufacturers/dealers are here, and are extremely helpful (thanks Thierry and the Capture Integration team, and sorry if I missed anyone). Nikon can't match that, almost by definition - and certainly has shown no interest in it with their other cameras.
     If Nikon wants to get a meaningful competitor in there, it will either have to SEVERELY undercut the existing players (body under $8000) or offer something nobody else has. Without the "body and back" design, and without service that will swap a back immediately, photographers will certainly need two of them (no more having an old AFDII or H1 on hand if the body goes and counting on a dealer's loaner if the back fails), and no using a few rolls of Velvia in the fridge as a backup either. I can't imagine any Nikon dealer stocking loaner cameras, and Nikon's repair turnaround runs several weeks (so does Canon's, and everyone else's in 35mm). The only upgrade to the latest version will be to sell the whole body and buy the next generation. All of this put together means that a Nikon entry will have to sell for substantially less (thousands, but no idea how many) than any of the existing cameras with similar image quality, even if they can match the lens lineup.
      If Nikon tries simply undercutting the other guys, does this jam up the top of their line with the D3 at $5000 - where can they get a D3x in there (unless there IS no D3x and MX is their only high-pixel count play)? If they really are developing a "giant rangefinder" for $8000 or so, that's probably a better bet, because there is nothing like that on the market. They might also do well with something that was more conventional, but had 35mm-caliber autofocus (all of the existing cameras have different variants of "focus and recompose" AF).
    Since I actually like shooting medium format better than 35mm (as a landscape photographer), I'm working on a switch from Canon to one of the medium format systems (which I could never have dreamed of before last week's price drops). I would love to see the MX before I do, or at least have a better sense of what it might be. Nikon's ergonomics are often amazing, and I think the giant rangefinder could be better suited to what I do than even a MF SLR, but I'd rather have a camera that handles like a Hasselblad than one that handles like a giant 35mm SLR - strictly one opinion, for one type of photography. One that handles like a Mamiya 7 plus a hint of view camera could be even better.
    Could Mamiya be in a position to release that giant rangefinder? The only reason I mentioned Nikon is that there is a persistent rumor that they are working on it. Logically, Mamiya is a much better fit - having both medium format and rangefinder experience, where Nikon has neither.

                                    -Dan
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Dustbak

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Nikon MX looks less attractive with new MF prices
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2008, 11:11:47 am »

Nikon used to built a rangefinder camera as well. I know a long time ago but there are people out there that are still totally in love with their Nikon S.

I would believe a Nikon rangefinder might be in the works. I have a hard time believing anything other/bigger than 24x36 like.

Than again, I also believed there wouldn't be a D700 type camera for at least another year.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2008, 11:13:41 am by Dustbak »
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joern_kiel

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Nikon MX looks less attractive with new MF prices
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2008, 11:17:32 am »

I am pretty shure that Nikon has learned their lessons well in the past and will be competitively from the start in pricing and technology.

But why not relax and wait for what will happen? I have a very comfortable seat here at the fence, so come over and let´s have some beer in the meantime ;-)
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Khun_K

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Nikon MX looks less attractive with new MF prices
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2008, 11:18:50 am »

Quote
Nikon used to built a rangefinder camera as well. I know a long time ago but there are people out there that are still totally in love with their Nikon S.

I would believe a Nikon rangefinder might be in the works. I have a hard time believing anything other/bigger than 24x36 like.

Than again, I also believed there wouldn't be a D700 type camera for at least another year.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225200\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Take the film base Mamiya 6 and 7 as example, the MF rangefinder camera does not need to be big, and so is the lenses.
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Boris_Epix

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Nikon MX looks less attractive with new MF prices
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2008, 06:41:36 pm »

Quote
Nikon can't charge what any of the mature players do, unless they bring comparable flexibility in lenses and other options (back upgrades and service).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225195\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You're so funny. Did you call medium format digiback makers mature? And Nikon is not mature? HOW FUNNY. Can you define the word "mature" then?  :-)


Quote
This board is full of stories of the medium format companies offering very good service that only a tiny company can offer - representatives of several of the manufacturers/dealers are here, and are extremely helpful (thanks Thierry and the Capture Integration team, and sorry if I missed anyone). Nikon can't match that, almost by definition - and certainly has shown no interest in it with their other cameras.

                                    -Dan
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225195\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Yes. Lovely. You gotta love support people. But you know what I love more? When I don't need support. If you need support that means your tool is broken or not working as expected.

Usually Canon/Nikon are more troublefree and support is available EVERYWHERE. There are tons of forums on the web where you can get virtually instant support and get your questions answered. You don't need to wait for Thierry/Yaya/etc. And you can get a new Canon 1Ds MK3 almost anywhere you are on the globe if you had no backup. Or soon the 5D MK2 which is bargain. Customers on a set would pay it from their pocketmoney if that's what's needed to finish a job the same day. Overnight MFDB replacement sound nice but usually wouldn't work because the location, model, stylists, etc is only available for the day it was booked.

The only thing that MF backs OUGHT to give is better pixels and colors. Because for the rest MFDB makers just can't compete with most DSLR companies because they are too small and obviously often just need to take whatever is given to them (sensors, LCD's, circuitry, batteries, etc).

I believe the single most overseen subject by back makers is to provide "dozens consistent predefined color profiles" such as different films. I'm just sick of fiddling around in whatever RAW converter to adjust for skin tones... then do a second conversion for the background and then in Photoshop you still need to tweak individual colors to make it work overall. Turn around time to get a pic with nice colors (color styles) and contrast needs to be faster. The color f*ckup tool in C1 is a nice approach in a way but the user interface is a joke. How many diffferent colors can you pick from that tiny box? 16.7 millions? Or even billions? Why not making the freaking user interface bigger so you can try to achieve what you want with finer controls and MORE CONTROL.

The Canon styles suck btw... maybe the backmakers can do this better.
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Dan Wells

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Nikon MX looks less attractive with new MF prices
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2008, 11:16:37 pm »

Quote from: Boris_Epix,Sep 28 2008, 10:41 PM
You're so funny. Did you call medium format digiback makers mature? And Nikon is not mature? HOW FUNNY. Can you define the word "mature" then?  :-)

My comment was intended strictly to refer to how long they have been making MF cameras, glass, etc... Nikon would be bringing out a whole new system - give them  at least a year or two to get it right. I agree that Nikon has a wonderfully mature 35mm business that they turned into small-format digital, and I wouldn't worry AT ALL about a slightly tweaked small-format Nikon (even something as different as a 24 mp body). On the other hand, this is a whole new lens line, and, if rumors are right, a radically new camera with little in common with anything ANYBODY has done before, let alone Nikon. Mamiya has been making 645 stuff almost as long as Nikon has been in the 35mm business, Hasselblad has been in medium format since the early 1950s, and the Sinar/Leaf/Rollei crowd have also been around forever. I just wonder if Nikon can get a body with no relation to anything else in their line and a whole bunch of new lenses out the door without hitches, especially if the concept is as radical as an all-electronic rangefinder (remember that Nikon has occasionally screwed up inventory on pro gear in the past - D2x bodies were very scarce for a while, and that was just a body, not a whole new system). They're as good at this as anyone, but they're trying something huge here, and I wonder if it's worth it to them for the smallish market...


                                -Dan
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BernardLanguillier

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Nikon MX looks less attractive with new MF prices
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2008, 11:54:50 pm »

Even if the MX were total crap, or just a crazy rumour, it will probably have contributed to having Hassy cut its prices by 40%... and since I don't think that they move only on rumours, my guess is that something like the rumoured MX is coming. It could be from Canon or another manufactuers, but it is most probably coming.

Would it be for that reason alone, all MFDB potential purchaser will probably owe a big thank you to Nikon/Canon.

Since there will be basically no incentive to stick to a given brand, I would personnally not care the least bit if it were a Nikon or Canon offering.

But... if Nikon, or Canon for that matter, have indeed decided to go that route, I would be very surprised if they had messed up.

Based on their previous track record in terms of lens design, ergonomics and sensor technology I am personnally certain that both brands are in a position to:

0. Develop such a system pretty quickly,
1. Get it mostly right the first time,
2. Bring un-matched value for the photographers looking for a very high image quality at a reasonnable price,
3. Significantly push the enveloppe of possible applications with much better AF, more rugged bodies that are reliable in a wide variety of conditions, higher ISOs and longer exposures.

The funniest thing would be if they had agreed on a common mount...

Cheers,
Bernard

Dan Wells

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Nikon MX looks less attractive with new MF prices
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2008, 12:41:42 am »

I agree 100% that small-format (35 full frame and smaller) pressure is probably behind the recent round of price cuts. I am not sure that that pressure would necessarily have to be one of the small-format manufacturers moving into medium format - it certainly could be, but it could also simply be the emergence of reasonably priced very high pixel count small-format cameras. The 25 mp Alpha 900 is not THAT far removed from a low-end back's pixel count, and that is a $3000 camera, which certainly puts pressure on $20,000 backs. Sure, the difference in image quality is bigger than the difference in pixel count (dynamic range, depth of field, etc...), but the Alpha 900 and the 5dmkII still present a challenge to back makers - as would a 25 mp Nikon.


             -Dan
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eronald

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Nikon MX looks less attractive with new MF prices
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2008, 05:51:51 am »

Quote
Given Nikon's recent lens releases, and their history of making LF, MF SLR & RF lenses, I'm pretty sure they could build any format lens to any spec they deem appropriate to the market they're targeting.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225682\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'd really like an MF solution with a sensor that can do good 1600 ISO like the D700/D3.

Good  huge pixels - that's what we need, not megapixels. And Nikon understand that.

Edmund
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Christopher

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Nikon MX looks less attractive with new MF prices
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2008, 08:00:46 am »

Quote
I'd really like an MF solution with a sensor that can do good 1600 ISO like the D700/D3.

Good  huge pixels - that's what we need, not megapixels. And Nikon understand that.

Edmund
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Or we are just to limited with CCD sensors.
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Christopher Hauser
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