LEAF changes upgrade pattern?

[AndreNapier]

3. The sensor can now be changed from portrait to landscape with a switch, that is a BIG plus, on the old AFi you had to physically remove the back and turn it. Try that on a windy beach and you have wonderful natural grain on your shots :
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Frank,
I have this feature on my Rz for the past 20 years and since I put my first Phase One LightPhase BD on my camera.

Dave,
Have you got my PM last nite?

Andre

[H1/A75 Guy]

The last two days I have been shooting with the AFi-10 and the file quality (as far as I can judge from my macbookpro) is stunning, in the closeups you can almost make out the DNA of the model

Frank,

How robust is the SensorFlex option?

David

[perbernal]

Per it seems as if you were given the wrong figures or that the information was somehow misexplained/ misunderstood.

I don't have the US prices in from of me but in general the price for trading in a Aptus 75S for a new Aptus-II 7 is a bit over $7K which mean you get more than $24K for your A75S.

There is no official path from Aptus 75S to Aptus-II 6 as we do not expect people to want to go down in chip size and pixel count.

The trade-in price from an Aptus 75S to a new Aptus-II 10 is under $9K which means you pay an extra of less than $2K for a bigger, newer model with advanced functionality etc.

If you need any further clarification please let me know and I will ask someone from Leaf America to contact you ASAP with all the information.

And my sincere apology to everyone here for "hiding in the shame" as we're quite busy here at the show selling new products to new customers as well as existing ones.

Another long and busy day tomorrow so I'd better switch off now.

Kindest,

Yair
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Hi guys,

Since I haven´t heard back from Yair and LEAF yet I decided to be proactive and double check the upgrade/trade-in prices I quoted in my first post and that I had misunderstood or been given the wrong info according to Yair. But it looks like I wasn´t to far off after all. Here are the in-official, for reseller only, numbers that I just got from my LEAF source and they apply to H-mounted LEAF backs ( I´m positive the pricing applies to backs with other mounts as well):

54S with H-mount to the AptusII/7 (33 mpx)

Trade-in value 54S  -     $ 9325.00 USD  

AptusII/7 retail price -   $ 32 995.00 USD

You pay a difference of  $ 23 670.00 USD for this upgrade


54S with H-mount to the AptusII/10 (50 mpx)

Trade-in value 54 S -    $ 9110.00 USD  

AptusII/10 retail price-  $ 34 995.00 USD

You pay a difference of  $ 25 885.00 USD for this upgrade


Here´s were it get´s real interesting:

75S with H-mount to the AptusII/7 (33 mpx)  - same sensor but better display & wifi

Trade-in value 75S -    $ 15610.00 USD  

AptusII/7 retail price -   $ 32 995.00 USD

You pay a difference of  $ 17 385.00 USD for this upgrade (not $ 7000.00 USD - YAIR!!!)


75S with H-mount to the AptusII/10 (50 mpx)

Trade-in value 75S -       $ 12 540.00 USD  

AptusII/10 retail price -   $ 34 995.00 USD

You pay a difference of  $ 22 455.00 USD for this upgrade

The numbers speak for them self. I can understand if the price difference would be bigger between a product like he 54S and the new AptusII 7 since the sensors is different in size but it shouldn´t be the case between the 75S and AptusII 7. I´m seriously thinking of dropping my LEAF backs and go Hasselblad instead. Unless LEAF steps up to the plate and honors their upgrade promises to existing owners of their backs!

I have heard rumors that Hasselblad will launch a very aggressive trade-in program soon for non-Hasselblad digital back owners to get them to change over to the H3D system. The change over would cost almost nothing for LEAF and PHASE shooters and you would get almost identical or better products than you already have. Seems like Hasselblad is going for world domination no matter the cost and making the money back on lens sales instead. For now I´m going to sit down and wait to see what unfolds.

Per Bernal

[yaya]

Per,

Please email me with your full contact details and we will have the right person contacting you with the right prices. I have googeld your name and am confused as to where you are based.

Many thanks,

yair

[jing q]

Just to chip in that I got similar numbers from my dealer from Singapore (slightly higher...) regarding upgrade prices

yaya, are there upgrade prices to the AFi 10?(with body of course)

Tough decisions to make this period as hasselblad has dropped their prices considerably.

One more thing: if Phase One says that their new sensor removes the need of cropping on the viewfinder, then how does it work for Leaf's 56x36mm sensor since it's over 5mm longer than the Phase One's?

hi yaya not sure if you missed my reply, any info on my above questions?

Also, Can you confirm the upgrade prices just for general clarity.

[yaya]

hi yaya not sure if you missed my reply, any info on my above questions?

Also, Can you confirm the upgrade prices just for general clarity.

My apologies Jing as I DID miss your post (as it was during Photokina I'm sure I missed others, not that it is a good excuse....)

Yes there are paths and prices for trade-ins to the AFi-II 10 (from Leaf and Non-Leaf backs). these were communicated to our dealers during Photokina so by now they should be able to give you the exact figures.

I will be at the Expo next week in NY so if you would like to come and say hello It'll be great and we can get all the figures for you then.

BR

Yair

[archivue]

for me the switching of the sensor to landscape/portrait is worth an upgrade, especially when working outside.

Arca RM3D and the Rotaslide can do it with every MFDB !

[Doug Peterson]

hmm - in normal circumstances I'd agree, but... the deal was that they promised this upgrade path, maybe not in cold hard contract, but there was and has been so far this definite intention to look after you, and in exchange for, oh 5 - 10k upgrade you to the latest, if you so wished. Phase is the same, we're all waiting to see if they offer a decent upgrade P45+ > P65+, if it stays at the $15k figure, I'm not doing it in this economic climate.

yes the mfdb market is limited, but you know it should grow - students are now beginning to appear with them, and that makes a lot of sense - an old contax with a P45, (maybe not +) is great for 3 year course and pays for itself. and there's a lot of photo students out there!

A new P45+ lists at $23,990. A refurbished warrantied P45+ lists at $18,990. Used backs vary wildly depending on condition/warranty/support/seller-desperation but almost always is less than the refurbished price.

A new P65+ lists $39,990. The upgrade from a 45+ lists $15,990 which values your P45+ at $24,000.

For that price you get 50% higher resolution, a larger sensor, a larger uncropped viewfinder, much faster capture rate, flexible resolution/ISO, built-in fw cover and tilt-meter, on-screen grids and B+W view, and a restart on your warranty.

I will completely understand if what you're saying is that for YOU the price is not worth the benefits. That's completely personal. But the upgrade price places the value of your used back very close to a new P45+ and WAY above the price you'd get selling it on the open market so it's hard for me to see how that's not a "decent" price.

The upgrade prices for the P40+ on the other hand are pretty weak. However, a dealer can often do much better than the official upgrade program.

edit: I revised the new price of the P45+. I mistyped it initially as $25,990.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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[David Grover / Capture One]

I wouldn't bash Leaf of this cause Hasselblad has suspended thier upgrade path and Phase is doing it on some products so they are all chaning their methods.


JR

Hi James,

As I have explained many times in the past the change in the upgrade plan was combined at the same time with an average price drop of 40%.  I have showed many times with various calculations that the difference in outright cost to the end user was very small, bearing in mind they also kept their original camera.

Best,


David

[Smallcooter]

A new P45+ lists at $25,990. A refurbished warrantied P45+ lists at $18,990. Used backs vary wildly depending on condition/warranty/support/seller-desperation but almost always is less than the refurbished price.

A new P65+ lists $39,990. The upgrade from a 45+ lists $15,990 which values your P45+ at $24,000.
{Snip}

Does anyone actually pay LIST i.e. FULL RETAIL price for his MFDB?

What's the street price on a new P65+, Doug? I am sorry; I don't know any secret handshake. I hazard a guess but $29, 990.00 for the P65+ won't be far of the mark?

Schmal

[Steve Hendrix]

A new P45+ lists at $25,990. A refurbished warrantied P45+ lists at $18,990.
[font= \"Arial\"]Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Doug:

Your pricing on a new P45+ is off. $23,990 please sir. End users are thinking when they call a dealer, they may get a price quote below that price, but they are not counting on getting one above it!


Steve Hendrix
Phase One

[bradleygibson]

A new P65+...
For that price you get 50% higher resolution, ...

With respect, a correction as well, if I may-- the P65+ gives you 50% more pixels.  (That gives 22% more resolution.)

-Brad

[gwhitf]

Does anyone actually pay LIST i.e. FULL RETAIL price for his MFDB?
What's the street price on a new P65+, Doug? I am sorry; I don't know any secret handshake. I hazard a guess but $29, 990.00 for the P65+ won't be far of the mark?

I agree with this sentiment.

The weird thing about buying from a dealer, where the price is not fixed, and can fluctuate based on conditions unknown to me, you end up in this weird place with the dealer, especially if you're friends with them, or they've simply helped you out on a forum like this.

On one hand, once you know that the price is fluid, you don't want to go to them and screw them to a wall, and beat them to death on the price, because of some weird guilty feeling, that they've helped you out in the past.

But on the other hand, you feel like a total chump if you go in there and pay full list.

I love the fact that when you buy a Canon, you're pretty much paying what everybody else is paying, and the deal feels solid. I guess it'll never be that way in MediumFormat, but it does make you wonder how it would actually affect sales if there WAS a fixed price. How many customers just didn't want to fight the Do The Deal Fight, and just said screw it and bought a Canon or a Nikon. (Or, how many people bought a used MFDB, outside of the dealer system). It just makes you wonder.

[Doug Peterson]

@steve: yikes! thanks, I corrected the price. I guess that's why I'm in technical services rather than sales!

Does anyone actually pay LIST i.e. FULL RETAIL price for his MFDB?

What's the street price on a new P65+, Doug? I am sorry; I don't know any secret handshake. I hazard a guess but $29, 990.00 for the P65+ won't be far of the mark?

Schmal

Perhaps you'd like to start off the Sharing Game by listing each of your clients and what each one pays you. Do your various clients pay identical rates? Are any of them using secret handshakes? It takes literally 2 minutes to call any dealer and get a quote, and in our case we publicly publish our cell phones so you could even call after hours. It seems like the only people who ever complain about not having a clear street price on a product are those on the sideline not actually interested in purchasing.

With respect, a correction as well, if I may-- the P65+ gives you 50% more pixels.  (That gives 22% more resolution.)

-Brad

No need to be so polite; I know you bradley and I know you're not nit picking. It is a perfectly reasonable critique. In linear print size it is 22% bigger. In square feet of print size it is 50% bigger. For someone selling work at a gallery the price is usually more closely aligned with square footage than linear print size, but of course there are many equally good reasons to think in linear print size.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
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[Doug Peterson]

I love the fact that when you buy a Canon, you're pretty much paying what everybody else is paying, and the deal feels solid. I guess it'll never be that way in MediumFormat, but it does make you wonder how it would actually affect sales if there WAS a fixed price. How many customers just didn't want to fight the Do The Deal Fight, and just said screw it and bought a Canon or a Nikon. (Or, how many people bought a used MFDB, outside of the dealer system). It just makes you wonder.

If everyone is selling an item at the exact same price it means that the profit is so thin that the only people that can sell it are box-movers. Do you want MFDB to go over to exclusively a box-mover distribution system? That would mean among other things that there would be no local demos, very little local training, no forum presence (good luck getting good info when buying your used back then), and any/all support would come from John Smith at a central call center 9am to 5pm who has no idea who you are. Do you see no benefit to the Value Added Reseller model? You can't have it both ways.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up

[Henry Goh]

If everyone is selling an item at the exact same price it means that the profit is so thin that the only people that can sell it are box-movers. Do you want MFDB to go over to exclusively a box-mover distribution system? That would mean among other things that there would be no local demos, very little local training, no forum presence (good luck getting good info when buying your used back then), and any/all support would come from John Smith at a central call center 9am to 5pm who has no idea who you are. Do you see no benefit to the Value Added Reseller model? You can't have it both ways.

While I'm grateful to have dealers and reps providing information and help, I sometimes ask myself why do brands like Canon or Nikon or Sony or Fuji etc sell far more products than the MFDB makers without the need for their sales people or reps to be here daily? My view is they have put in far more work to make sure their products stay reliable, are much easier to use, provide much much more information on their items, supply well written and detailed manuals, ensure more transparency in their sales channels,  etc, to name a few.  This approach empowers users to be far more independent of the dealers.  

After buying into an MFDB system, I found that although image quality is nice, my Canons and Nikons are actually far more complex cameras, with many options and features.  That got me thinking again...does everyone who owns an MFDB needs hand holding from a dealer or rep when by reading a Canon or Nikon manual, one can comprehend and get proficient in using their more complex cameras in as short a time?

I'm sure there's a need for a business model whereby a photog pays premium for a dealer to come demo and subsequently trains and hand-holds him until he's ready to float off on his own.  However, there should also be a choice for others to just buy an MFDB system off the shelf and then swim on his own.  So far, I've only spent 15 mins with my dealer when he delivered my back and honestly I doubt I'll be calling him again until the back gives me problems or when I need to buy another back.  I really cannot see how he can help me make better images out of the back because far better teachers can be found on this and other forums.

[ddk]

Per it seems as if you were given the wrong figures or that the information was somehow misexplained/ misunderstood.

I don't have the US prices in from of me but in general the price for trading in a Aptus 75S for a new Aptus-II 7 is a bit over $7K which mean you get more than $24K for your A75S.

There is no official path from Aptus 75S to Aptus-II 6 as we do not expect people to want to go down in chip size and pixel count.

The trade-in price from an Aptus 75S to a new Aptus-II 10 is under $9K which means you pay an extra of less than $2K for a bigger, newer model with advanced functionality etc.

If you need any further clarification please let me know and I will ask someone from Leaf America to contact you ASAP with all the information.

And my sincere apology to everyone here for "hiding in the shame" as we're quite busy here at the show selling new products to new customers as well as existing ones.

Another long and busy day tomorrow so I'd better switch off now.

Kindest,

Yair

Well Yair, the way you speak its as if there is a set price from Leaf America but the figures that I was quoted by the dealer are very far from your numbers when I asked about upgrade cost or trade in value for either my Aptus 22 or my 75S towards and Aptus 2-10 since I'm still deciding which one of the back to keep. Can you verify the exact values please, I don't want to be jerked around by some unscrupulous dealer! Thanks.

[mtomalty]

David,

For the sake of clarity, were the prices you received and compared to Yairs something recent
because the pricing you quote from Yair is dated September 2008-over seven months ago.

Mark

[Peartree]

What you missing is a COMMON SENSE.
Andre

Feeling a bit left out of this debate here in the UK seeing as most of you seem to be States side and talking $$$ , but I thought you might be interested in the upgrade / trading (or what ever else you want to call it) in prices that we are currently offering here in the UK!

For example the Leaf Aptus-II 10 retails here for £21,292  and Leaf are trading in your old Aptus 75 (even if you bought refurbished!) for just £7,890!! that means that Leaf are valuing your old Aptus 75 at £13,402!!! or $19,432 at today exchange rate! many of you probably purchased a refurbished model so are quids in, and many more of you probably bought the back commercially 2 to 3 years ago and have probably paid it off and written it off against TAX.

I think Leaf's trade in program is very fair! question for you all; What is Canon's upgrade price for a Canon 1DS mk II to a mk III?

[jing q]

Feeling a bit left out of this debate here in the UK seeing as most of you seem to be States side and talking $$$ , but I thought you might be interested in the upgrade / trading (or what ever else you want to call it) in prices that we are currently offering here in the UK!

For example the Leaf Aptus-II 10 retails here for £21,292  and Leaf are trading in your old Aptus 75 (even if you bought refurbished!) for just £7,890!! that means that Leaf are valuing your old Aptus 75 at £13,402!!! or $19,432 at today exchange rate! many of you probably purchased a refurbished model so are quids in, and many more of you probably bought the back commercially 2 to 3 years ago and have probably paid it off and written it off against TAX.

I think Leaf's trade in program is very fair! question for you all; What is Canon's upgrade price for a Canon 1DS mk II to a mk III?

what's the price on trading in a 75S? is that a better price?
if it is I would love to fly over just to trade-in.