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Author Topic: Hasselblad new pricing - up to 40% off  (Read 43624 times)

Raphael

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« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2008, 05:08:56 pm »

Lisa,

your conclusion is kind of true.....but
The extended dynamic range of MF (mostly due to 16bits vs 14bits for the mk3 and soon the 5dmk2) will show slightly more gradation in the highlights and shadows, although I must say that it is visually very subtle.
It does make a difference when processing a 16bit Analog to digital converted file.. For me the best simple example  that  I have seen is just taking a MF sample file and up-res it, it is kind of incredible what you can do with the file, and  as someone stated on this forum recently, they are almost elastic...
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lisa_r

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« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2008, 05:12:23 pm »

Quote
Hi,

I have seen some tests in a Swedish periodical for professional about a year ago. They photographed "stouffer edges" and arrived at about one stop advantage for medium format.

There are lots of discussion of dynamic range on these forums. I guess that "Panopeeper" or "Gluijk" will have a lot of input.

Best regards
Erik
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224372\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

About the magazine test, do you remember which cameras they were using?
Also, I have read some of the panopeeper and gluijk stuff and it seems to be mostly NOT based on head to head tests with *recent* cameras.

To be clear, I am not looking for dense tech talk. What I am interested in is real world tests  
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lisa_r

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« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2008, 05:18:10 pm »

Quote
Lisa,

your conclusion is kind of true.....but
The extended dynamic range of MF (mostly due to 16bits vs 14bits for the mk3 and soon the 5dmk2) will show slightly more gradation in the highlights and shadows, although I must say that it is visually very subtle.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224377\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks for the response Raphael. About the bits, I have read numerous times that the extra two bits are empety - i.e., no useful info there. Anyway bits and d.r. are not directly linked, right? Who knows, and it's easy to start down the tech talk path, which is why I just want to SEE what others have found, if it's available. In my experience shooting 1Ds3 and Phase 31mp and 39mp backs, I have not seen the difference in D.R. Even when pushing the files in post.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2008, 05:21:29 pm by lisa_r »
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ErikKaffehr

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« Reply #43 on: September 25, 2008, 07:13:33 pm »

Sorry, I'm on a tript so I have no oppurtunity to check. I'd suggest that post a question on this forum. Lot's of users here who own both DSLs and MF backs.

Erik

Quote
About the magazine test, do you remember which cameras they were using?
Also, I have read some of the panopeeper and gluijk stuff and it seems to be mostly NOT based on head to head tests with *recent* cameras.

To be clear, I am not looking for dense tech talk. What I am interested in is real world tests 
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ErikKaffehr

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« Reply #44 on: September 25, 2008, 07:22:05 pm »

Hi,

As far as I understand dynamic range is dependent on the size of the pixel, the larger the pixel the more electrons it can hold, but also on the noise level. Canon DSLRs have very little noise in special. MFDB:s have probably more noise.

If you don't see an advantage in dynamic range in MFDB:s just be happy, you just saved a quite a few kilobox.

Something that surprises me is that there is a lot of talk about dynamic range but very little about lens flare, which in my view also affects dynamic range.

Erik



Quote
Thanks for the response Raphael. About the bits, I have read numerous times that the extra two bits are empety - i.e., no useful info there. Anyway bits and d.r. are not directly linked, right? Who knows, and it's easy to start down the tech talk path, which is why I just want to SEE what others have found, if it's available. In my experience shooting 1Ds3 and Phase 31mp and 39mp backs, I have not seen the difference in D.R. Even when pushing the files in post.
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TMARK

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« Reply #45 on: September 25, 2008, 10:18:58 pm »

Quote
Thanks for the response Raphael. About the bits, I have read numerous times that the extra two bits are empety - i.e., no useful info there. Anyway bits and d.r. are not directly linked, right? Who knows, and it's easy to start down the tech talk path, which is why I just want to SEE what others have found, if it's available. In my experience shooting 1Ds3 and Phase 31mp and 39mp backs, I have not seen the difference in D.R. Even when pushing the files in post.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224382\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Lisa,

I'll give you my real world assessment, based on Aptus 22 and Phase P30+ files versus the new breed of 14 bit 35mm digital (1ds3, D3, soon to be 5DII).  For stills I shoot for magazines.  Glossy mags. I'm shooting portraits, fashion and beauty.  

For editorial work, it doesn't matter.  A 5D or P30+, whatever, it all looks the same when compressed into a dynamic range of a web press printed magazine page.  Its a fact.  The only reason to shoot MFDB on an editorial is for the look of medium format.  I sold my P30+ for many reasons, although I loved the back.  One was that I couldn't justify the cost for editorial, which what I mainly shoot.  I usually work with an OK budget.  I can rent a back, mark it up, or even better, just shoot some 400nc or 160c, cut out much of the post work.

For commercial work, I can rent whatever I want with a tech.  I just don't shoot enough where an MFDB is required, such as cosmetics and hair, to justify carrying the cost.

Another consideration is that shooting with MFDB is a pain.  From ISO limitations to the Frankencamera problems with sync, shutter lag, lock ups, etc, its just not a fluid process, although the Phase backs are as good as it gets.  Shooting film is easier.  Shooting 35mm digital is even easier.  Less pain more pictures.

To get specific w/r/t your question regarding dynamic range, well, the P30+ is a little better than the 1ds3.  The Dalsa backs (Sinar and Leaf) are a little better than the P30+.  The MFDB files still show cleaner shadows, sort of.  They are more pliable in post, and for this your retoucher will thank you.   Color is better with the MFDB.  It almost matches well scanned film.

We just ordered, or pre-ordered, four 5dmkII cameras.  The files I've seen show the same smoothness that you see in the P30 files, and I've just seen full size jpgs.  All that being said, I plan on picking up a used P21+ real cheap in a year or so, because I do really like the look of MFDB files.  Now that MFDB are coming down in price and appear to be going after usability to a degree, they are headed in the right direction.
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BJL

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« Reply #46 on: September 25, 2008, 10:41:58 pm »

Quote
They even make up new formats, True Wide, 48mm Full Frame, real 645 full frame, now we have the Hasselblad HCD crop.  Cool.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224293\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
And my personal favorite obfuscation, Canon's use of "APS-H" for the format of the 1D series (never mind that APS-H is a failed 16:9 film format whose dimensions almost nobody knows.)

Let me take up Michael's idea of eschewing film-think. Stop describing sensor formats in terms of vaguely similar film formats and just call a spade a spade: 13x17.3mm, 15x22.5mm, 16x24mm, 19x29mm, 24x36mm, 30x45mm, 33x44mm, 36x48mm, 40x54mm, 36x56mm, etc.
SLR users can deal with one or two numbers.
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Alex MacPherson

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« Reply #47 on: September 26, 2008, 02:21:47 am »

I am on the fence. I have a Mamiya AFDII and was considering getting a MFD back.

I shoot fashion and beauty.

Am I better off: A )  Shooting film and getting good quality scans
                        B ) Getting a MFD back  like a +P21
                        C ) Getting a Canon 5D MKII

???

All that matters is the image quality. I can deal with everything else.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2008, 02:22:09 am by Dolce Moda Photography »
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Alex MacPherson

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eronald

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« Reply #48 on: September 26, 2008, 02:51:40 am »

Quote
To get specific w/r/t your question regarding dynamic range, well, the P30+ is a little better than the 1ds3.  The Dalsa backs (Sinar and Leaf) are a little better than the P30+.  The MFDB files still show cleaner shadows, sort of.  They are more pliable in post, and for this your retoucher will thank you.   Color is better with the MFDB.  It almost matches well scanned film.

We just ordered, or pre-ordered, four 5dmkII cameras.  The files I've seen show the same smoothness that you see in the P30 files, and I've just seen full size jpgs.  All that being said, I plan on picking up a used P21+ real cheap in a year or so, because I do really like the look of MFDB files.  Now that MFDB are coming down in price and appear to be going after usability to a degree, they are headed in the right direction.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224459\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'd be VERY VERY CAREFUL here.
- I have a P45+, and shot the 1Ds3 for comparison and agree with what you say.
- But my 1Ds2 had catastrophic skin tone and was unusable for fashion/portrait.
- The 5DMarkII samples from Canon look a lot like the old 1Ds2. In which case no one with a serious fashion/beauty application should go anywhere near it. Concrete testing is advised before a buy. I repeat, the 1Ds3 is clearly ok.

Edmund
« Last Edit: September 26, 2008, 02:52:07 am by eronald »
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Dinarius

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« Reply #49 on: September 26, 2008, 04:11:24 am »

I have both the Canon 1DsMk3 and the Hasselblad 39Mp multi shot.

Canon is like an extension of my hand. I love it.

Hassie is strictly tripod - though 99% of what I do is tripod anyway.

I shoot a lot for museums and galleries. Colour-wise the Hasselblad via Flexcolor has no equal that I've ever seen, particularly in multi-shot mode.

Canon is a great camera. Colour needs a bit more work, but it has its uses. I have differing price structures for both cameras, so there's a use for the two.

Dynamic range of the Hassie is noticably greater. This is most obvious when shooting interiors. The Canon will fail to hold shadow and highlight extremes that the Hassie will.

To use a film analogy, the Hassie is like a 4x5 tranny, where the Canon is more colour negative - though not quite - in terms of its dynamic range.

D.

ps. If you can, shoot the exact same scene with a Canon and an MFDB, cropping to match, and just compare the histograms in CS3. You'll be amazed at what is registering on the MFDB that isn't on the Canon.

pps. If the truth be told, my most favourite camera is my beloved G9. The large Jpegs are phenomenal! And it has the best screen of the three of them!  
« Last Edit: September 26, 2008, 04:33:54 am by Dinarius »
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Bernd B.

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« Reply #50 on: September 26, 2008, 07:27:28 am »

Quote
I'd be VERY VERY CAREFUL here.
- I have a P45+, and shot the 1Ds3 for comparison and agree with what you say.
- But my 1Ds2 had catastrophic skin tone and was unusable for fashion/portrait.
- The 5DMarkII samples from Canon look a lot like the old 1Ds2. In which case no one with a serious fashion/beauty application should go anywhere near it. Concrete testing is advised before a buy. I repeat, the 1Ds3 is clearly ok.

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224507\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Probably the most interesting statement I heard about the 5DMkII until now.

Somewhere else in this forum I read Canon used paler colors in the Bayer-matrix to get higher ISO speed, but this was a compromise and doesn´t result in optimal colors.

Bernd
« Last Edit: September 26, 2008, 07:27:57 am by Bernd B. »
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lisa_r

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« Reply #51 on: September 26, 2008, 08:34:30 am »

Quote
Probably the most interesting statement I heard about the 5DMkII until now.

Somewhere else in this forum I read Canon used paler colors in the Bayer-matrix to get higher ISO speed, but this was a compromise and doesn´t result in optimal colors.

Bernd
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224557\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


This is based on looking at web jpegs?

I am not too concerned about it I guess, seeing as the 5D2 usese the same amazing chip that the 1Ds3 uses, but with larger microlenses, etc. Time will tell I guess...

Dinarius and TMARK, et al., thanks for the info.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2008, 08:40:55 am by lisa_r »
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Bernd B.

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« Reply #52 on: September 26, 2008, 10:52:50 am »

Quote
This is based on looking at web jpegs?

I am not too concerned about it I guess, seeing as the 5D2 usese the same amazing chip that the 1Ds3 uses, but with larger microlenses, etc. Time will tell I guess...

Dinarius and TMARK, et al., thanks for the info.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224580\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, the sources are yet questionable. Let´s wait until there are some real experiences.

Bernd
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TMARK

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« Reply #53 on: September 26, 2008, 11:17:23 am »

Quote
I'd be VERY VERY CAREFUL here.
- I have a P45+, and shot the 1Ds3 for comparison and agree with what you say.
- But my 1Ds2 had catastrophic skin tone and was unusable for fashion/portrait.
- The 5DMarkII samples from Canon look a lot like the old 1Ds2. In which case no one with a serious fashion/beauty application should go anywhere near it. Concrete testing is advised before a buy. I repeat, the 1Ds3 is clearly ok.

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224507\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

As I actually shoot beauty I can assure you that the 1ds2 had great skin tones for beauty as long as you light correctly and work the file in post.  What I did not like about the ds2 (and all 35mm digital of that generation) was how the high lights blew out and how quickly you ran out of head room.  I had to light much flatter than I did for film.  I also did not like how flat the color could be and how muddy the shadows could be.  Lighting and post fixed all of these issues, but it was a pain.  The DB's shine in these areas.  The ds3 is real real nice, solving most of these problems, getting 95% of what an MFDB can get you in an easier to use package.
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TMARK

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« Reply #54 on: September 26, 2008, 11:24:30 am »

Lisa,

The sample photo from blad comparing to a "35mm alternative" is hilarious!  Are they really just trying to drive people to Canon?

Quote
Now that the prices are below stratospheric, I have a few questions about the H3. Does it tether and stay tethered all day without connectivity issues?

If it gets disconnected can you reconnect without restarting the computer or the like?

How long does the battery last?

Where can I find some good large sample files? (Preferably fashion shot with daylight)

Looking at their site, I am not sure why they would compare their file to a Canon (1Ds2 I think), when the Canon file looks just as good, even at ridiculous zoom levels (see below)
Probably a pipe dream, but does anyone know if these price reductions spill over to the *lenses*?

Also, does anyone know whether there is a definitive test somewhere on the web showing d.r. differences between the current backs and the Canon 1ds3? I know there is lots of hearsay, but what I am looking for is *evidence*. The pixels seem to be about the same size, no?
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John_Black

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« Reply #55 on: September 26, 2008, 11:34:06 am »

Don't get too bent out of whack over the 5DII's colors yet.  Like the 1Ds3, the 5DII has the ability to upload custom ICC profiles into the camera which are then stored with the CR2 file and baked into the JPEGs.  Everybody dismisses color styles as a kindergarten feature, but in truth it's the same feature as C1 Pro's color editor.  And the cool part is - this can uploaded into the camera.  No waiting to get back to your computer to test out a new style.  OF course, once at your computer the color style can be changed (except on JPEGs of course).  So, comparing the colors from a 1Ds2 v 1Ds3 v 5DII is a moving target and will vary based upon which ICC profile is loaded into the 1Ds3 and 5DII.  The 1Ds2 did NOT have this functionality in-camera.  Here are some Canon color preset color styles - including ones optimized for portrait type work -

http://www.canon.co.jp/imaging/picturestyle/index.html

To use the color styles, DPP is required.  Other raw format imaging software dismisses the info.
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James R Russell

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« Reply #56 on: September 26, 2008, 11:48:49 am »

Quote
Don't get too bent out of whack over the 5DII's colors yet.  Like the 1Ds3, the 5DII has the ability to
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224648\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The Canons make great skin tones.  Early on the 1ds2 had a lot of red, but you can adjust it and work it down.  The 1ds3 is much easier as you can make your own tones.

But as far as faces and beauty the Canons are fine with the 3 being much better than the 2

This image was from the 1ds2 and I prefer the Canon L's especially the 85 for beauty because it's slightly softer and less brittle on faces.

[attachment=8528:attachment]

In fact under a lot of situations I find the mfdbs to be too color sensitve and pick up ambient bounce of color.  Under direct light you don't see it but soft light or shade it really comes in.

Regardless of brand or format my suggestion is before spending ANY money to find the camera, back or dslr you like and rent it, or have the dealer loan in and shoot it EXACTLY the way you work, with lighting, style, number of files, workflow, etc. etc.

If the dealer can't do this, then find another dealer.  If the camera or back combination is not available for testing, go to another brand, but don't buy a ________ on a Mamiya, hoping it works well with your RZ or anythign else.

Test it exactly and try to find the previous model, becuase it probably will give the same exact image quality and usabiliity for 1/2 the costs.

JR
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EricWHiss

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« Reply #57 on: September 26, 2008, 12:02:11 pm »

Quote
.
.
.
In fact under a lot of situations I find the mfdbs to be too color sensitve and pick up ambient bounce of color. Under direct light you don't see it but soft light or shade it really comes in.
.
.
.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224655\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I've noticed this too in my phase files and thought that at first it was somehow over emphasizing the reflected colors but when I really opened my eyes to see what was really there I had to realize that the phase was doing a really good job of capturing reality.    It just looks strange to see it on a screen since our minds process out stuff like color in the shadows.  After having checked this out, my view is these are the subtle things that MFDB's can do that add realism and palpability to the images.

On a digression, maybe over time all the new digital media is changing the way we accept and process information?
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James R Russell

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« Reply #58 on: September 26, 2008, 12:06:48 pm »

Quote
I've noticed this too in my phase files and thought that at first it was somehow over emphasizing the reflected colors but when I really opened my eyes to see what was really there I had to realize that the phase was doing a really good job of capturing reality.    It just looks strange to see it on a screen since our minds process out stuff like color in the shadows.  After having checked this out, my view is these are the subtle things that MFDB's can do that add realism and palpability to the images.

On a digression, maybe over time all the new digital media is changing the way we accept and process information?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224663\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


It really depends on what you shoot, where you shoot it.

Under shade or soft ambient light the db's are very color sensitive and if the subject has light translucent skin it can look very grey.  Darker skin tones obviously photograph with a healtier look.

The DB's are good, but they just see everything and sometimes seeing everything is not that great.

Regardless whatever you use, use it in the conditions you work in.  

JR
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EricWHiss

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« Reply #59 on: September 26, 2008, 01:47:22 pm »

It's an interesting subject because sometimes we don't really see what's there - our eyes/brain just has its own filters and processing. Maybe how we see has to do with what we want to see and how we think as individuals too.  The skin may look grey in some light but we wouldn't see it that way or want to.  But when its in print we see it differently and are more critical?  This seems to be true with DOF and DR as well.   In real vision we see only some things in focus and part of the DR but as we scan the vista our brain assembles the information for us like Helicon focus and bracketeer would do.   I think we interpret images in print differently so that causes the disconnect.  My sense is the average person filters out or downplays shadows and reflections to a large degree.    I'm sort of interested to see the truth and have in a way marveled at the differences between what I  thought I saw and what I got in capture.     That being said, were I doing more ad work I'd need to work harder at learning what people want to see.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2008, 01:51:34 pm by EricWHiss »
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