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Author Topic: Are we going into another depression?  (Read 51386 times)

Craig Lamson

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Are we going into another depression?
« Reply #100 on: September 27, 2008, 02:56:26 pm »

Quote
Well, no, when the government comes in it is not the market correcting itself. Its government intervention, as you said, to protect the depositors. If they had not then the deposits are lost, panic, run other banks etc.

Its a good thing that your government came in to save the day, but that is not free market economy. WAMU had over $150billion in holdings, more than the FDIC could afford to insure it for. So, it served better to save it and save the savings. So stop proporting that the markets should self-correct, cause in the case of WAMU, they did not.

The Fed, or US govt central bank, was put in place by the US govt in the early part of the C20th to do exactly what they did with WAMU and what they are trying to do with the rest. However, that is not free market economics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_System
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224971\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Yes it is the market correcting itself.  The governent did not bail out WAMU and the shareholders.  The FDIC is INSURANCE...paid for by the banks.  Thats what protects the depositors money up to the 100k limit.  Anything beyond that you lose.

And the FED is not the government, which you would have known if you would have actually read your posted WIKI link.  The government has no power to make the FED do anything other than by statute.  From your link:

"As an independent institution, the Federal Reserve has the authority to act on its own without prior approval from Congress or the President."  

So once again your argument fails.  It IS the free market in action.

The FED  brokered a deal where one for profit company purchased the deposit assets of another for profit but failing company.  The GOVERNMENT had nothing to do with it.  How could they? The government has no authority.

Nobody SAVED WAMU.  In fact for all intents WAMU is gone. Eaten by a bigger and stronger competitor.  The free market in action.

Missing from your post is your answer to this:

"Why don't you explain EXACTLY what "my administration" did in regards to deregulation of the banking and financial systems."

That appears to be the entire basis for your position.  Surely you have the data at hand to back it up.  Or is there no wiki entry.....
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BFoto

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Are we going into another depression?
« Reply #101 on: September 27, 2008, 04:14:48 pm »

Quote
Yes it is the market correcting itself.  The governent did not bail out WAMU and the shareholders.  The FDIC is INSURANCE...paid for by the banks.  Thats what protects the depositors money up to the 100k limit.  Anything beyond that you lose.

And the FED is not the government, which you would have known if you would have actually read your posted WIKI link.  The government has no power to make the FED do anything other than by statute.  From your link:

"As an independent institution, the Federal Reserve has the authority to act on its own without prior approval from Congress or the President." 

So once again your argument fails.  It IS the free market in action.

The FED  brokered a deal where one for profit company purchased the deposit assets of another for profit but failing company.  The GOVERNMENT had nothing to do with it.  How could they? The government has no authority.

Nobody SAVED WAMU.  In fact for all intents WAMU is gone. Eaten by a bigger and stronger competitor.  The free market in action.

Missing from your post is your answer to this:

"Why don't you explain EXACTLY what "my administration" did in regards to deregulation of the banking and financial systems."

That appears to be the entire basis for your position.  Surely you have the data at hand to back it up.  Or is there no wiki entry.....
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Again, dont be so blind.

[a href=\"http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/26/markets/bondcenter/treasury_prices/index.htm]http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/26/markets/bo...rices/index.htm[/url]

I think the phrase you need to read is this.

"The announcement that JPMorgan Chase (JPM, Fortune 500) acquired the banking assets of Washington Mutual (WM, Fortune 500) late Thursday after the beleaguered thrift was seized by federal regulators sent yet another shock to already skittish lenders"

That amount to government intervention - and thus not free market.

2nd point - The Fed is a quasi-government entity that has a presedent appointed board. Its the 1st paragraph - do you not read?

and if you read a bit further you read this

"The system was designed out of a compromise between the competing philosophies of privatization and government regulation.[19] While planning the design of the system, some people wanted the system to have generally private aspects whereas others wanted more government involvement. The system that resulted ended up being a compromise between these two philosophies. In 2006 Donald L. Kohn, vice chairman of the Board of Governors, summarized the history of this compromise:[22]

Agrarian and progressive interests, led by William Jennings Bryan, favored a central bank under public, rather than banker, control. But the vast majority of the nation's bankers, concerned about government intervention in the banking business, opposed a central bank structure directed by political appointees. The legislation that Congress ultimately adopted in 1913 reflected a hard-fought battle to balance these two competing views and created the hybrid public-private, centralized-decentralized structure that we have today.

In the current system, private banks are for-profit businesses but government regulation places restrictions on what they can do. The Federal Reserve System is the part of government that regulates the private banks. The balance between privatization and government involvement is also seen in the structure of the system. Private banks elect members of the board of directors at their regional Federal Reserve Bank while the members of the Board of Governors are selected by the President of the United States and confirmed by the Senate. The private banks give input to the government officials about their economic situation and these government officials use this input in Federal Reserve policy decisions. In the end, private banking businesses are able to freely run a profitable business while the U.S. government, through the Federal Reserve System, oversees and regulates the activities of the private banks"

Moreover, if you believe that it is private how do you feel that you tax dollars are managed by a private firm? They're not, look at its mandate and control.

Finally, thought i would through this one in

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/advice-fo...pbg.html?page=1

dalethorn

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Are we going into another depression?
« Reply #102 on: September 27, 2008, 05:33:13 pm »

All govt's, no matter what, exist at the whim of their people. The U.S. govt. does what it does by pre-dumbing its people, softening them up for the screwing they get. Look around at your neighbors. They sit on their fat behinds watching their big fat TV's, and when they leave the big fat house they take their big fat SUV. Europeans by and large rejected much of this decades ago. Americans actually went *backwards* in the past 30 years thanks in part to fascist-loving Gen-X and their fascination with Dumb-and-Dumber (Mike Myers, Beavis & Butthead et al).
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Mike Chini

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Are we going into another depression?
« Reply #103 on: September 27, 2008, 06:50:02 pm »

I'm an independent and was happy to vote for Obama (change vs. more of the same) but this financial debacle has changed my mind.  I'm now in the 3rd party camp.  The Democrats are trying to pass a $450 billion spending bill with $25 billion for Ford and GM and $7 billion of pork.  And this is WHILE they're wrestling with the housing bailout.  THE LAST THING WE NEED NOW IS INCREASED SPENDING.  Hell, they could finance the bailout by CUTTING spending.

And this just angers me to no end....READ:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1222470154...=googlenews_wsj
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dalethorn

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Are we going into another depression?
« Reply #104 on: September 27, 2008, 07:38:40 pm »

We Americans are going to have to pay for our greed, and I don't think there's any escape. If you don't understand the depths of depravity of the American psyche, here's ONE tiny example: I had a Honda car in 1987 that got 62 mpg highway, and Honda continued making those until circa 1995. Nowdays you can get 45 mpg only in a hybrid with a $7,000 battery. All gas cars - 30 mpg max. So we've gone way backwards. But physical recovery isn't possible without a mental fix first, and you can see from Fox news and the other rightwing talk shows that America is still deep in denial. There's probably no hope. Remember the famous words of Rodney King: "Can't we all get along?"
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BFoto

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« Reply #105 on: September 27, 2008, 08:41:50 pm »

have you ever heard of the Community Re-investment Act and what is was deigned to do.

Have a read of this and you will see where it all went wrong with freddie and fannie

http://www.ffiec.gov/cra/


From wiki
"In 2003, the Bush Administration recommended what the NY Times called "the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing finance industry since the savings and loan crisis a decade ago." [10] This change was to move governmental supervision of two of the primary agents guaranteeing subprime loans, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac under a new agency created within the Department of the Treasury. However, it did not alter the implicit guarantee that Washington will bail the companies out if they run into financial difficulty; that perception enabled them to issue debt at significantly lower rates than their competitors"
« Last Edit: September 27, 2008, 08:42:52 pm by BFoto »
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BernardLanguillier

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Are we going into another depression?
« Reply #106 on: September 27, 2008, 09:55:26 pm »

There is one thing American citizens should be very careful about. Since it is also going to impact many non Americans, we should all be very concerned.

Sept 11th was used by various entities to push agendas way farther than would have been thinkable days before the attacks.

What we have here is a very similar event, and I am concerned that once more, the fear of American citizens might be used to pass various reforms that would not have had a chance to be adopted in normal times.

What needs to be understood is who exactly is paying for the proposed 700 B$ aimed at stabilizing the banking system and what will be the impact in the coming years. Among these, a key aspect is the managment of the interest of this debt. What is the interest rate, and how is this going to be funded?

Cheers,
Bernard

Craig Lamson

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Are we going into another depression?
« Reply #107 on: September 28, 2008, 12:07:33 am »

Quote
Again, dont be so blind.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/26/markets/bo...rices/index.htm

I think the phrase you need to read is this.

"The announcement that JPMorgan Chase (JPM, Fortune 500) acquired the banking assets of Washington Mutual (WM, Fortune 500) late Thursday after the beleaguered thrift was seized by federal regulators sent yet another shock to already skittish lenders"

That amount to government intervention - and thus not free market.

2nd point - The Fed is a quasi-government entity that has a presedent appointed board. Its the 1st paragraph - do you not read?

and if you read a bit further you read this

"The system was designed out of a compromise between the competing philosophies of privatization and government regulation.[19] While planning the design of the system, some people wanted the system to have generally private aspects whereas others wanted more government involvement. The system that resulted ended up being a compromise between these two philosophies. In 2006 Donald L. Kohn, vice chairman of the Board of Governors, summarized the history of this compromise:[22]

Agrarian and progressive interests, led by William Jennings Bryan, favored a central bank under public, rather than banker, control. But the vast majority of the nation's bankers, concerned about government intervention in the banking business, opposed a central bank structure directed by political appointees. The legislation that Congress ultimately adopted in 1913 reflected a hard-fought battle to balance these two competing views and created the hybrid public-private, centralized-decentralized structure that we have today.

In the current system, private banks are for-profit businesses but government regulation places restrictions on what they can do. The Federal Reserve System is the part of government that regulates the private banks. The balance between privatization and government involvement is also seen in the structure of the system. Private banks elect members of the board of directors at their regional Federal Reserve Bank while the members of the Board of Governors are selected by the President of the United States and confirmed by the Senate. The private banks give input to the government officials about their economic situation and these government officials use this input in Federal Reserve policy decisions. In the end, private banking businesses are able to freely run a profitable business while the U.S. government, through the Federal Reserve System, oversees and regulates the activities of the private banks"

Moreover, if you believe that it is private how do you feel that you tax dollars are managed by a private firm? They're not, look at its mandate and control.

Finally, thought i would through this one in

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/advice-fo...pbg.html?page=1
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Sheesh this is SO beyond you it’s NOT funny.  Once more and maybe this time it will sink in.

The FED makes it OWN decisions.  It has a mandate by statue (that’s a LAW in case you don't understand).  The ONLY way congress (who makes the laws) can order the FED to do ANYTHING is to create a new law.  The Presidents only role is one of appointment, and his appointments span many terms.  He can't order the FED to do ANYTHING either.  The government does not fund the FED and the actual shares of stock in the FED are MEMBER BANK owned.

So to clear this up for you once and for all (as it seems your repeated trips to wiki and Google are failing you) the "federal" regulators were actually the FED who act for themselves and not the government.  The regulations (note there is a regulation and not your mythical "deregulation") require they step in to a seize a failing bank.  They then brokered a PRIVATE deal between to private companies.  Notice the key word here is PRIVATE. SO to review ONCE again for you.  The GOVERNMENT was not involved. The FED was. You got it yet?

And for you final mistake...the FED does not "manage our tax dollars.  Congress does that.  Give it up.  You don't have a clue.

Next time forget wiki and go to the source.

[a href=\"http://www.federalreserve.gov/generalinfo/faq/faqfrs.htm#5]http://www.federalreserve.gov/generalinfo/faq/faqfrs.htm#5[/url]
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Craig Lamson

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Are we going into another depression?
« Reply #108 on: September 28, 2008, 12:34:20 am »

Quote
have you ever heard of the Community Re-investment Act and what is was deigned to do.

Have a read of this and you will see where it all went wrong with freddie and fannie

http://www.ffiec.gov/cra/
From wiki
"In 2003, the Bush Administration recommended what the NY Times called "the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing finance industry since the savings and loan crisis a decade ago." [10] This change was to move governmental supervision of two of the primary agents guaranteeing subprime loans, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac under a new agency created within the Department of the Treasury. However, it did not alter the implicit guarantee that Washington will bail the companies out if they run into financial difficulty; that perception enabled them to issue debt at significantly lower rates than their competitors"
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225069\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

ROFLMAO!  A word of advice for you BF.  When you are up to your neck in a hole the best thing you can do is stop digging.

CFA was started under President CARTER.  That was FOUR administations ago.

Regardless that bill was ADDITIONAL regulation on the banking industry.  It was NOT deregulation.  

Deregulation:  "The reduction or elimination of government power in a particular industry, usually enacted to create more competition within the industry."

CFA did exactly the opposite.  It was a mandate that banks and mortage companes extend credit to minority and low income communities and small business. It also based decisions about a banks growth on its actions in regard to CFA.  It was added yet onemre ADDITIONAL layer of regulation, it sure did not deregulate anything.

In 03 GW Bush, along with others saw the problem with Freddy and Fanny growing out of control and he wanted to create EVEN MORE regulation to reign them in.  Congress said no.   We will never know if this ADDITIONAL regulation would have changed the course of history, but facts are quite clear.  Your claims that DEREGULATION by "my administration"...whatever that means..was the cause of the  current problems is just plain wrong.

Now if you want another shovel, I'll be glad to give you one.  But given the size of hole you are in I might suggest a ladder and a nap.
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Craig Lamson

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« Reply #109 on: September 28, 2008, 12:41:36 am »

Quote
There is one thing American citizens should be very careful about. Since it is also going to impact many non Americans, we should all be very concerned.

Sept 11th was used by various entities to push agendas way farther than would have been thinkable days before the attacks.

What we have here is a very similar event, and I am concerned that once more, the fear of American citizens might be used to pass various reforms that would not have had a chance to be adopted in normal times.

What needs to be understood is who exactly is paying for the proposed 700 B$ aimed at stabilizing the banking system and what will be the impact in the coming years. Among these, a key aspect is the managment of the interest of this debt. What is the interest rate, and how is this going to be funded?

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225079\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I agree.  this bailout is really bad news.  US history is littered with really bad laws created in the heat of hte moment of a crisis or precieved crisis without an understanding of the long term potential for problems.  

US public opinion is running quite high against the bill.  I just read that one congressman (I'm not sure who) wanted to make it a requirement that the entire bill be posted on the internet for at least 24 hours befire the vote so the people can read it and respond.  I truly hope that happens.
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Misirlou

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« Reply #110 on: September 28, 2008, 02:49:55 am »

Quote
All govt's, no matter what, exist at the whim of their people. The U.S. govt. does what it does by pre-dumbing its people, softening them up for the screwing they get. Look around at your neighbors. They sit on their fat behinds watching their big fat TV's, and when they leave the big fat house they take their big fat SUV. Europeans by and large rejected much of this decades ago. Americans actually went *backwards* in the past 30 years thanks in part to fascist-loving Gen-X and their fascination with Dumb-and-Dumber (Mike Myers, Beavis & Butthead et al).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225025\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

dalethorn, you brought up these same points a few months ago on a completely different topic. I though Beavis & Butthead dried up years ago. Does 1990s slapstick entertainment prove to you that american culture has declined terribly? So back in the golden age, when all was right and true, we didn't have vaudeville, Al Jolsen and the Three Stooges I guess.

Also, please be a little careful with the "f" word. Many of us have friends who lost families in the holocaust, which was clearly not an american invention. Complain about the current administration if you wish, but political dissapointment must surely be somewhat less severe than being marched off to a gas chamber along with your children. That's authentic fascism.

And europeans "rejected" the opportunity to buy expensive wasteful thing years ago? Really? Seen the price on an Aston Martin or Ferrari lately? Then there's the Porsche Cayenne, BMW X5 and the latest Range Rovers. Last time I was in London, those kinds of things were everywhere. By and large, the really expensive, decadent stuff all comes from europe, Cuban cigars notwithstanding. Seems to me the europeans like the high life as much as much as we do, it's just that most of them can't afford as much of it as we can.

Quote
We Americans are going to have to pay for our greed, and I don't think there's any escape. If you don't understand the depths of depravity of the American psyche, here's ONE tiny example: I had a Honda car in 1987 that got 62 mpg highway, and Honda continued making those until circa 1995. Nowdays you can get 45 mpg only in a hybrid with a $7,000 battery. All gas cars - 30 mpg max. So we've gone way backwards. But physical recovery isn't possible without a mental fix first, and you can see from Fox news and the other rightwing talk shows that America is still deep in denial. There's probably no hope. Remember the famous words of Rodney King: "Can't we all get along?"
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225052\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yeah, my '67 XKE got 30 on the highway, but it had no airbags and no emissions controls equipment whatsoever. It was certain to require extremely expensive body work in even the most minor of accidents. Let's not even consider what might happen to the occupants in one of those that crashed at high speed.

Since '87, there have been a raft of pollution, repairability and safety mandates on the auto manufacturers that add lots and lots of weight and bulk to cars, which works against fuel economy. Was that an example of the evil government trying to screw the taxpayer, the greedy auto companies refusing to sell anything worthwhile, or the public just wanting to clean up their air and face better odds in collisions? Which party was more stupid? And, in case you forgot, Hondas and Toyotas are all designed in Japan.

I'm tired of being told I'm a dimwit compared to all those sophisticates elsewhere in the world. I've lived other countries for years, worked in every country in Europe and most in Asia, been to Australia, New Zealand, and most of the larger islands in the Pacific. So far, though I've met wonderful people everywhere, and seen admirable things all over the world, I'm still convinced that I prefer our way of life. Call me blind if you wish, but if you insist I must be stupid or uninformed, consider what that says about your own tolerance of others' opinions and your respect for their life experiences.

We certainly have no corner on ignorance. An associate of mine from Africa tried to convince me that he had to leave his home country because its president was posessed by four demons, all of which had names that were discussed by everyone in his country. An educated man in Cambodia, one the savage Khmer Rouge had allowed to live, told me he was sorry he could never come to the US because he knew that he'd be given a blood test on landing here, and then thrown in prison for life because he'd used marijuana in the 60s. Sure, these extreme misconceptions aren't common in Europe, but I have two words to remind you that europeans aren't completely perfect either: soccer hooligans. Ignorance, evil and stupidity know no borders, sir.

I'm not as pessimistic as you appear to be. I believe we'll get through this crisis, and the next, and the one after that. I'm not even suffering much over the oil spike; I bought a Vespa.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2008, 02:52:08 am by Misirlou »
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BernardLanguillier

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Are we going into another depression?
« Reply #111 on: September 28, 2008, 04:26:46 am »

Quote
US public opinion is running quite high against the bill.  I just read that one congressman (I'm not sure who) wanted to make it a requirement that the entire bill be posted on the internet for at least 24 hours befire the vote so the people can read it and respond.  I truly hope that happens.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225113\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I guess that what needs also to be taken into account is the impact on individuals savings, etc... so I am personnally not saying that the governement shouldn't do anything, just that there is a need to be very careful about understanding what is being proposed and the consequences.

Among these things, as I have already mentioned several times, where does the money come from? Then, by who and how will the amounts commited be paid back?...

Very few people seem to understand in the US how exactly the Federal Bank is creating/lending money and how this money is paid back. Considering the lack of liquidity of the private banks making up the Federal Reserve, there are probably 2 possibilities:

1. This money is created out of thin air without any real backing -> what are the consequences? It can only result in a further weaking of the US$ and more inflation in the country, correct?
2. This money is lend by non US banks -> what are the consequences? The actual result if basically the sell out of US assets to non US entities, among which China is probably a major player, correct?

Besides, isn't the money proposed in the end going to be used to help the banks making up the Federal Reserve itself?

I would love to hear a clear explanation on this.

Cheers,
Bernard

cgf

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« Reply #112 on: September 28, 2008, 06:33:31 am »

I watch on from afar, but sadly the impact is travelling the distance, our retirement accounts are crashing (most have a least some exposure to the US economy).

An interesting opinion on the situation can be found here.

In case the blog is updated, it's the entry on September 23rd.

And if we go back to Paul's March 19 post (in the same blog) we find my insight-of-the-year contender: "Giving money to institutions that failed at their only job, which was to have money, may not be the best strategy."

Fergus.
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Mike Louw

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« Reply #113 on: September 28, 2008, 06:53:16 am »

Good old Darwinian capitalism in action.

I have a feeling that a future Gibbon, writing his "Decline and Fall of the American Empire", will mark this decade's events as significant accelerants of the collapse.

Edit: I'm not US-bashing! Just sad. I love the place and the people.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2008, 07:48:51 am by mikelouw »
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Craig Lamson

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« Reply #114 on: September 28, 2008, 08:43:28 am »

Quote
I guess that what needs also to be taken into account is the impact on individuals savings, etc... so I am personnally not saying that the governement shouldn't do anything, just that there is a need to be very careful about understanding what is being proposed and the consequences.

Among these things, as I have already mentioned several times, where does the money come from? Then, by who and how will the amounts commited be paid back?...

Very few people seem to understand in the US how exactly the Federal Bank is creating/lending money and how this money is paid back. Considering the lack of liquidity of the private banks making up the Federal Reserve, there are probably 2 possibilities:

1. This money is created out of thin air without any real backing -> what are the consequences? It can only result in a further weaking of the US$ and more inflation in the country, correct?
2. This money is lend by non US banks -> what are the consequences? The actual result if basically the sell out of US assets to non US entities, among which China is probably a major player, correct?

Besides, isn't the money proposed in the end going to be used to help the banks making up the Federal Reserve itself?

I would love to hear a clear explanation on this.

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225134\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm afraid there is going to be an impact on the individual and its going to be bad, long term.  How can it not?  But that is really the crux of the current negative feelings toward this bill.  It bails out the big guys who played badly and forces the little guy to pay the tab.  

Of course this is mostly speculation as we really don't know what is in the bill.  As of this morning (Sunday) the word is that an agreement has been reached in principal but the bill has yet to be drafted and voted upon.  I'm not holding my breath that the bill is a good one and I'm not convinced it is needed.  There are a bunch of competeting plans for fixing this crisis out there that don't involve a 700B  (or more) bailout.

The sad but true fact is that there is going to be some real pain involved in this correction.  As I stated eariler I'm living it.  For the past 25 years my career and business was based on the RV, Marine and Cargo Trailer industries.  It was a very good business for many years but the products were either toys or tied to the construction trades.  Toys required people with good incomes and an access to credit..and cheap fuel.  Construction the same.  For the most part those things are gone and the industries are way way down.  I've had  to close my large studio and regroup.  Thats life.  I'm not asking anyone to fix it for me.  I was fully aware of costs, risks and rewards.  Thats all I expect from the guys they are trying to bail out.  

I'm sorry for writing a book, but this is complicated stuff.  Sadly this is a worldwide problem.  EVERYONE has been living large for a long time and to borrow a phrase, the chickens are coming home to roost.  I don't believe there is a quick fix and I don't think the correction will be a soft landing.  I really hope I'm wrong.

Here is the best "easy" explanation of the Fed and money I have read. Of course this is an huge topic , the subject of many many books...

1. where does the money come from
What we call money in the USA is actually Federal Reserve notes (take a look at the bills in your pocket). All outstanding Federal Reserve notes are considered liabilities of the Federal Reserve. The Federal Reserve has to match liabilities with assets, so it can't simply "print money" when it want to increase the money supply.

However, it can buy Treasuries, either directly from the U.S. Treasury or private banks. Since Treasuries are considered assets, the Fed can pay for the treasuries with newly created Federal Reserve notes.

The Fed can also temporarily increase the money supply by borrowing securities and lending new notes for a short time. These are known as repos (repurchase agreements). The most common repos last either overnight or for two weeks. At the end of this time, the bank gives back the money, which is destroyed (since the Fed no longer holds an offsetting asset), plus a bit of interest which helps pay the Feds costs.

These increases - both from repos and treasury sales - are greatly magnified in the economy, because all of the new money is placed in a bank where it can be loaned out (less reserves). Since a bank only needs to keep 10% of its deposits on reserve, the banking system can essentially loan out each dollar 9 times over. This is called the money multiplier.

If you take a look at the Fed Balance Sheet (I'm referring to the 8/16/07 version, but the link will take you to the most current one), you'll see that the Fed is holding assets of $867 billion in Treasuries, $36 billion in repos and a few odds and ends like $11 billion in gold. Their liabilities are dominated by $812 billion in "Currency in circulation."

The effect of the money multiplier can be seen be comparing the currency in circulation with M2, the Fed's most all-encompassing published measure of all the money in the economy. The last published M2 data is for August 6, when M2 was $7.3 trillion.

2. who gets this money
First banks and the U.S. Government, then everyone through loans from banks, interest payments from the government and government spending.

3. how do they pay back
4. is there an interest they have to pay
Yes, people and businesses and banks pay interest on their loans and the government pays interest on Treasuries.

5. who is eligible to use the discount window
Banks. The window (think bank teller window) is a Fed program where banks can get overnight loans at slightly higher than market rates. Banks will normally borrow these funds from each other, but in times when more money in aggregate is being withdrawn from banks than deposited, Fed loans through the discount window help ensure there is enough money to go around.

6. is that free money
No, Fed overnight loans are fully secured and the bank does pay a premium (typically 1%) for these loans. But the discount window provides an important safeguard in a credit freeze, by allowing the bank to raise money by borrowing against collateral that might be impossible to sell in the open market.
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rdonson

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Are we going into another depression?
« Reply #115 on: September 28, 2008, 09:07:38 am »

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US public opinion is running quite high against the bill.  I just read that one congressman (I'm not sure who) wanted to make it a requirement that the entire bill be posted on the internet for at least 24 hours befire the vote so the people can read it and respond.  I truly hope that happens.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225113\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

US public opinion is funny.  A very tiny percentage of people understand anything about these issues.  The US public is enamored with sound bites and thinks that what they see on TV is news rather than opinion.  

We're happy as long as our jobs and lives aren't threatened.  Its easy to be outraged with the executives and corporate boards who seem responsible for this mess.  Who doesn't love a scapegoat?  Its harder to see the hundreds of thousands or millions of people who are or will be deeply impacted by the current economic crisis.

Everyone is a free market capitalist until it backfires and causes them pain.  Be careful what you ask for.  You may actually get it.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2008, 09:11:52 am by rdonson »
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Regards,
Ron

dalethorn

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Are we going into another depression?
« Reply #116 on: September 28, 2008, 09:11:15 am »

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.......I though Beavis & Butthead dried up years ago.......
.......Also, please be a little careful with the "f" word.......
.......That's authentic fascism.......
.......Seen the price on an Aston Martin or Ferrari lately?.......
The point of B&B is the longterm effect on culture, which is beyond you. Real fascism is corporate rule, which is why we invested so much in Hitler (Bush, Harriman et al), also beyond you. And your cars of the rich is a straw man, since I spoke of cars of the common person. Come to think of it, one of Hitler's significant legacies was the car for everyone. Kinda like his pal Henry Ford, author of anti-Jewish propaganda.
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BernardLanguillier

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Are we going into another depression?
« Reply #117 on: September 28, 2008, 09:26:39 am »

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Here is the best "easy" explanation of the Fed and money I have read. Of course this is an huge topic , the subject of many many books...
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Craig,

Thanks for spending the time writing this.

Cheers,
Bernard

Craig Lamson

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Are we going into another depression?
« Reply #118 on: September 28, 2008, 09:54:02 am »

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Craig,

Thanks for spending the time writing this.

Cheers,
Bernard
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Just to be fair, and in case you missed it in my post I did not write the explanation about  the fed, it came from another  forum I visit and was written by a member there.


here is the link
[a href=\"http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5233&mrr=1187878088]http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic....&mrr=1187878088[/url]
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Craig Lamson

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Are we going into another depression?
« Reply #119 on: September 28, 2008, 10:01:27 am »

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US public opinion is funny.  A very tiny percentage of people understand anything about these issues.  The US public is enamored with sound bites and thinks that what they see on TV is news rather than opinion. 

We're happy as long as our jobs and lives aren't threatened.  Its easy to be outraged with the executives and corporate boards who seem responsible for this mess.  Who doesn't love a scapegoat?  Its harder to see the hundreds of thousands or millions of people who are or will be deeply impacted by the current economic crisis.

Everyone is a free market capitalist until it backfires and causes them pain.  Be careful what you ask for.  You may actually get it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225175\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You are quite right to a degree.  However I believe far more Americans are well informed that you give credit.  20 years ago, maybe, today, not so much.  We have the net to thank for that.

And people don't need to look far to see the effects, foreclosed houses in most every neighborhood stand as stark reminders.
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