Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: Who will make first 21st century m.f. camera?  (Read 26058 times)

narikin

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1371
Who will make first 21st century m.f. camera?
« on: September 14, 2008, 12:59:07 pm »

the amazing technology coming out in consumer level cameras, leaves me questioning when we are going to see our first real 21st century MF digital camera?

This for example:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0809/08091202...onic_DMC_G1.asp

has no more mirror - but uses continuous 'live view' in an electronic viewfinder to show exactly what the sensor sees, and will cost under $1000. So - for our many thousands in MF shouldn't we expect the same level of innovation, rather than the same 1980's design film camera with the lenses now re-branded 'digital'?

no mirror = simpler camera, no mirror box, less moving parts, lens design freedom with great wide-angle lenses instead of compromised retrofocal designs -  Biogon rather than Distagon style, better tilt-shifts, etc, etc.

so where are the designers for a radically new MF camera?  I want full time live view with electronic finder, and the ability to instantly zoom to 100% to check focus on any part of my image, plus multi zone AF, with Canon like levels of customisation...  Hasselblad H3 and the new Rollei-Leaf or Mamiya options just don't bring us forward much from 20 years ago!
Logged

Graham Mitchell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2281
Who will make first 21st century m.f. camera?
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2008, 01:21:39 pm »

How are we supposed to focus manually without an optical viewfinder? LCD screens are not nearly good enough.
Logged

James R Russell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 992
    • http://www.russellrutherford.com/
Who will make first 21st century m.f. camera?
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2008, 01:28:32 pm »

Quote
How are we supposed to focus manually without an optical viewfinder? LCD screens are not nearly good enough.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221397\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Video has been focusing off lcd's forever and even the lower prosumer models have a quick magnifier and peaking for focus.

If you have the Nikon D3 you can tell that lcd's are not that much of a leap, if any from most optical ground glass (plastic?).

I think it won't be long until we will see some major change in cameras, probably coming from  Japan.

Now they all offer some form of Live View, next they have video and I'm sure the next leap is to either bypass completely or offer the option to bypass the optical viewfinder.

I played around with the live view on the 1ds3 and it is possible to manually focus even hand held.

After all it's all relative.  The Contax never has that pop in focus look, though it only takes a few minutes of working it to know when you are in focus.

I don't know if we will ever have one camera that does everything perfectly, but I do know that even with the 1ds3, that is one camera that covers a lot of territory.

Now that Canon has real competition from Sony and Nikon I think we'll see changes in leaps rather than baby steps.

JR
« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 01:43:51 pm by James R Russell »
Logged

Graham Mitchell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2281
Who will make first 21st century m.f. camera?
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2008, 01:46:29 pm »

Quote
Video has been focusing off lcd's forever and even the lower prosumer models have a quick magnifier and peaking for focus.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221399\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Irrelevant. Consumer video resolution is so low that the LCD screen can nearly match it.

How are you supposed to know if your 60 MP image is in critical focus on a 640x480 screen? Not possible.
Logged

James R Russell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 992
    • http://www.russellrutherford.com/
Who will make first 21st century m.f. camera?
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2008, 02:06:37 pm »

Quote
Irrelevant. Consumer video resolution is so low that the LCD screen can nearly match it.

How are you supposed to know if your 60 MP image is in critical focus on a 640x480 screen? Not possible.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221401\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I'd suggest trying it.

I have a 1ds3 in my hands right now and on live view you can manually focus with a 50mm 1.2 from across the studio.  

Actually, depending on the contrast and distance there isn't that much of a difference manually focusing through the lcd than their is the optical viewfinder, other than at a distance the live view can be more accurate.   If there is contrast or backlght the focus just pops on the lcd due to the contrast change.

The Nikon lcd is even more detailed and this is just the start of where these cameras can go.

If medium format had the portable live view feature of the Canons or could shoot video like the newer cameras that are coming out it would be a stop the presses moment.

JR
Logged

uaiomex

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1211
    • http://www.eduardocervantes.com
Who will make first 21st century m.f. camera?
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2008, 02:11:27 pm »

As far as I'm concerned, the Afi/Hy6 is the 21 Century first true medium format camera.

Video will never match real life, hence electronic viewfinders wll always yield inferior resolution and refresh to optical. At least in this dimension and in this millenium.
Although some people may eventually prefer electronic finders for other reasons.
Eduardo

Quote
Irrelevant. Consumer video resolution is so low that the LCD screen can nearly match it.

How are you supposed to know if your 60 MP image is in critical focus on a 640x480 screen? Not possible.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221401\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Logged

Mark Regan

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13
    • http://
Who will make first 21st century m.f. camera?
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2008, 02:13:00 pm »

It seems that Panasonic uses the LCD viewfinders of their top of the line video cams in their new DMC G1. I really can't wait to check this one out.
No mirror slap, no noise ...
Logged

Graham Mitchell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2281
Who will make first 21st century m.f. camera?
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2008, 02:23:40 pm »

"If it aint broke, don't fix it"
Logged

Morgan_Moore

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2356
    • sammorganmoore.com
Who will make first 21st century m.f. camera?
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2008, 02:33:22 pm »

Quote
How are you supposed to know if your 60 MP image is in critical focus on a 640x480 screen? Not possible.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221401\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

How are you supposed to know if your 60mp (3meter by 2 meter?)  image is critical focus by looking through a 645mm hole !

Not to mention the mechanical errors in alligning the chip with the mirror

The future of focus has to be a decent LCD screen and inteligent zooming of details

I was playing with live view in Exposure today with the little zoom boxes - now thats a way to focus - way better than my eye

Take the mirror away and lose its vibration and the requirement for retrofocal lenses that make wides so hard to construct

It is nearly possible to use the D3 with live view (although it is designed by dummies because it doesnt twist - so you might as well look through the finder - you cant use it to help you shoot over your head or off the floor)

The zoom function in the Live view of the D3 is amazing for tripod shooting (but pointless because the D3 is not a tripod camera)

I would love my sinar to have d3 quality live view on an Iphone size screen - or just decent quality live view at all for that matter


I want to drag my focus point anywhere on the image - even the D3 doesnt do that

And the real thing that cuts resolution is poor focus accuary 60mp out of focus does not resolve as much as 11mp in focus

Roll on a 21C camera hopefully at 1985 prices

SMM
Logged
Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

Morgan_Moore

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2356
    • sammorganmoore.com
Who will make first 21st century m.f. camera?
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2008, 02:40:12 pm »

Quote
As far as I'm concerned, the Afi/Hy6 is the 21 Century first true medium format camera.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221404\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The Hy6 is pretty 1980s as far as I am concerned - ONE FOCUS POINT

The whole thinking behind the HY6 is no step on from any other MF camera - nicely implemented maybe - but the thoughts design is 1990s

Of course the designers of the HY6 didnt actually get the chance to think - thier breif was to stuff an old rollei in a nice new box

no R+D budget for anything else

C21 design is all about the chip talking back to the camera and driving its funcitions , AF, Exposure, ISO etc

----------

I was shooting today with my D3 in a waterhousing with a 14mm - the focus kept locking onto drips on the dome port or bubbles as they floated by - losing my focus on the subject

The bottom line is I will go back to gaffer taping the focus to a hyperfocal guess - it will beat all current technology

Now why cant I tell my camera 'focus between' 2m and 5m , or 4.37m and 8.21m if I want - I know there are switches on super tele lenses -but the 14 was not a super tele last time I looked - SWITCHES ?? -  thats 60s stuff

I want to write or download my own firmware setting my own specs for everything  - meter wiegting, when auto ISO ramps up - whatever - thats C21

S
« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 02:57:49 pm by Morgan_Moore »
Logged
Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

Graham Mitchell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2281
Who will make first 21st century m.f. camera?
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2008, 02:59:34 pm »

Quote
How are you supposed to know if your 60mp (3meter by 2 meter?)  image is critical focus by looking through a 645mm hole !
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221410\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well I don't have a 60MP back, but I don't have much difficulty focusing at f2 with my WLF and 22MP back. The resolution of the optical finder is very high.

Are you really going to start fooling around with liew view mode while shooting models?
Logged

Morgan_Moore

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2356
    • sammorganmoore.com
Who will make first 21st century m.f. camera?
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2008, 03:04:54 pm »

Quote
Well I don't have a 60MP back, but I don't have much difficulty focusing at f2 with my WLF and 22MP back. The resolution of the optical finder is very high.

Are you really going to start fooling around with liew view mode while shooting models?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221416\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

No I want decent multipoint AF for models !

I have a great deal of difficulty manually focusing to be honest - which is strange because I rarely used AF when shooting film

My conclusion is that my eyes are good for about 16mp in a hole that size - no way 60mp

Of course currently looking through a H1 or HY6 no doubt - whacks the vieing experience of a G9 whatever

But we are rambling about the future here...

SMM
« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 03:05:40 pm by Morgan_Moore »
Logged
Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

cyberean

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 161
Who will make first 21st century m.f. camera?
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2008, 03:34:30 pm »

Quote
How are we supposed to focus manually without an optical viewfinder? LCD screens are not nearly good enough.
don't knock it till you try it ...
(just make sure it's a good screen, if an when you do)

and depending on your application, a good LCD screen
can be as good as an optical VF, if not better.
Logged

MarkL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 475
Who will make first 21st century m.f. camera?
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2008, 04:17:06 pm »

Quote
This for example:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0809/08091202...onic_DMC_G1.asp

has no more mirror - but uses continuous 'live view' in an electronic viewfinder to show exactly what the sensor sees, and will cost under $1000.

Just about every digicam has this and EVFs are horrible.
Logged

revaaron

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 333
Who will make first 21st century m.f. camera?
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2008, 04:22:41 pm »

Quote
"If it aint broke, don't fix it"
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221408\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

narikin

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1371
Who will make first 21st century m.f. camera?
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2008, 04:29:00 pm »

Quote
"If it aint broke, don't fix it"
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221408\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

thats what the people who use film said.
Logged

Graham Mitchell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2281
Who will make first 21st century m.f. camera?
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2008, 04:35:27 pm »

Quote
thats what the people who use film said.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221429\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Very poor analogy.

Some guys here remind me of the self-appointed prophets who predicted that by the year 2000 we would all have robots doing our work for us, and we'd be living in space. Hmmm...

Logged

gwhitf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 855
Who will make first 21st century m.f. camera?
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2008, 04:40:48 pm »

All this is a moot point.

By the time that something like this would be designed by a MF company, Nikon/Canon/Sony/Red will long have gobbled up the MF market.

It's silly to even consider.

If you want a MF camera, just buy one today, and start shooting. My bet is that what you see on the marketplace right now is about as advanced as you're going to get. If a CCD could produce really good ASA 800 or 1600, it would already being doing by now. It's simply not going to happen. So leave this in the hands of CMOS.

If you want a George Jetson camera, just wait for Red to design it. Or Nikon. Or Canon. It's simply too expensive to do what you want, for the tiny volume of MF marketplace to justify it. You've got to have the Canon/Nikon/Sony volume to do this.

I'm just saying, my prediction is that MF Digital is now peaking. If you like what you see out there, buy one and get to work. (And buy a back-up too, so you don't get caught short). Or just keep dreaming, and shoot no photographs.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 04:44:16 pm by gwhitf »
Logged

narikin

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1371
Who will make first 21st century m.f. camera?
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2008, 04:44:37 pm »

Quote
How are we supposed to focus manually without an optical viewfinder? LCD screens are not nearly good enough.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221397\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
instant live view zoomed to 100% would surely be much superior to any optical screen.
press one button to 100% zoom, check focus with absolute certainty, one touch back to full screen, shoot away - voila!
Logged

Graham Mitchell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2281
Who will make first 21st century m.f. camera?
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2008, 04:46:07 pm »

Quote
If a CCD could produce really good ASA 800 or 1600, it would already being doing by now.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

...and it is. [a href=\"http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1683]http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1683[/url]
Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up