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Quentin

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New Phase One / Hartbei super rotating prices
« on: September 07, 2008, 10:15:04 am »

I am interested to read about the "new" F/3.5 45mm Hartblei / Phase one Tilt/shift lens.  Like Michael, I bought mine a few years ago, for $999 direct from Hartblei, and its been pretty good.  Essential this seems to be a tweaked version, but at four times the price.

Is a new lens coating and a few other tweaks worth 4 times the price?  Or are we seeing a Phase One effect, branding it as a luxury item that MF back owners will be happy to shell out for because it does not seem that expensive relative to a new Phase back?

I'd be interested to see a test up next to the old version to see where the extra $3,000 had been spent.

Quentin
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 10:15:44 am by Quentin »
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bcooter

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« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2008, 11:07:21 am »

Quote
I am interested to read about the "new" F/3.5 45mm Hartblei / Phase one Tilt/shift lens.  Like Michael, I bought mine a few years ago, for $999 direct from Hartblei, and its been pretty good.  Essential this seems to be a tweaked version, but at four times the price.

Is a new lens coating and a few other tweaks worth 4 times the price?  Or are we seeing a Phase One effect, branding it as a luxury item that MF back owners will be happy to shell out for because it does not seem that expensive relative to a new Phase back?

I'd be interested to see a test up next to the old version to see where the extra $3,000 had been spent.

Quentin
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


i see medium format as have gone complete crazy.   it seems that all of these costs is the result of every company having their own special contracts for cameras and lens and the sensor.

they can all say about open format, or closed format or say something in between but the very bottom of the line means $900 lens now costs $4,000 and digital backs with a re skin mamiya camera now costs $45,000.

$45,000 is much money for a still photograpy camera and what will it give your business and art life to own such a thing.

for the same money or even many less dollars you can buy this and make a big change to your business and art life.



a good and professional cinema camera and a used medium format camera will allow you to do something as important as this.

[a href=\"http://www.wisdombook.org/]http://www.wisdombook.org/[/url]
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 11:07:54 am by bcooter »
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Quentin

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New Phase One / Hartbei super rotating prices
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2008, 11:26:10 am »

Quote
a good and professional cinema camera and a used medium format camera will allow you to do something as important as this.

The message is always more important than the medium...

Quentin
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 11:26:57 am by Quentin »
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feppe

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« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2008, 11:26:58 am »

Quote
i see medium format as have gone complete crazy.   it seems that all of these costs is the result of every company having their own special contracts for cameras and lens and the sensor.

they can all say about open format, or closed format or say something in between but the very bottom of the line means $900 lens now costs $4,000 and digital backs with a re skin mamiya camera now costs $45,000.

$45,000 is much money for a still photograpy camera and what will it give your business and art life to own such a thing.

for the same money or even many less dollars you can buy this and make a big change to your business and art life.



a good and professional cinema camera and a used medium format camera will allow you to do something as important as this.

http://www.wisdombook.org/
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219970\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Sidestepping the dual astroturfing going on, who on earth thought it was a good idea to put a bunch of actors among some of the most respected intellectuals in the world? All they missed was Keith Richards or Beyonce talking about wisdom.

Seriously.

Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2008, 11:31:27 am »

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James R Russell

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« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2008, 11:59:16 am »

Quote
Sidestepping the dual astroturfing going on, who on earth thought it was a good idea to put a bunch of actors among some of the most respected intellectuals in the world? All they missed was Keith Richards or Beyonce talking about wisdom.

Seriously.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219973\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I guess everyone's a critic, which is fine, because we all are entitled to our opinions.

Still, when you invest many tens of thousands of dollars in equipment you want to be able to produce something you couldn't produce before . . . something that will move your art and career forward.

It's not about the size of the hole in the back of the camera that makes something worthwhile or even  professional.  It's not about what badge or name is on a camera, it's about what you produce and how you allocate your funds to do it.

Photography has nothing to do with camera "size" or brand loyalty.  

We all have a fixed amount of time and  money to dedicate to our art and whether anyone likes it or not things are changing.

Today you can display a parallel project of motion and stills just by producing a simple url and if you do it right you can get millions of people to view it.

This just wasn't possible 10 years ago, at least not withhout a network contract.

Whether anyone here likes or dislikes the Wisdom project is not going to concern the photographer/director one bit, but you have to give him credit for doing the project and moving forward.  

You have to recognize that he had the juice to get these people in a room, many rooms.

If you've ever produced a project on multiple continents you'd know this is a  huge undertaking.

If you've ever tried to schedule one high profile person and work under the "you've got 15 minutes" rule, you'd know how much pressure is involved doing something of this size.

As far as the choice of subjects who is to say that Desmond Tutu has brought more to the world than Dame Judi Dench?  

What I do know is that few people here would not jump through hoops just to have the opportunity to photograph any of these people . . . even Keith Richards.

Then again out of the 1 billion photographers that grace this planet few could produce this project, though 999,999,994 can critique it.

JR
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 12:37:20 pm by James R Russell »
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carl dw

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« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2008, 12:44:46 pm »

Quote
Sidestepping the dual astroturfing going on, who on earth thought it was a good idea to put a bunch of actors among some of the most respected intellectuals in the world? All they missed was Keith Richards or Beyonce talking about wisdom.

Seriously.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219973\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Did you actually watch it?

It had nothing whatsoever to do with intellectual capacity.

As I understand it (and their may be a small clue in the title) it's about the 'wisdom' that comes with age.

Being 'wise' and being 'intellectual' are two completely different things.

Great project, well thought out. An excellent demonstration of stills/video cross pollination.

With respect to Quentin, 'Wisdom' was a tad more interesting than 'Hartbei super rotating prices'!
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Quentin

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« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2008, 02:26:03 pm »

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With respect to Quentin, 'Wisdom' was a tad more interesting than 'Hartbei super rotating prices'!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219985\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I agree, but let's get back on topic and discuss the Wisdom of Wisdom elsewhere (I thought it was excellent).  A 4x price uplift is a topic worthy of discussion in its own right

Quentin
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nad54

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« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2008, 03:06:22 pm »

Quote
I am interested to read about the "new" F/3.5 45mm Hartblei / Phase one Tilt/shift lens.  Like Michael, I bought mine a few years ago, for $999 direct from Hartblei, and its been pretty good.  Essential this seems to be a tweaked version, but at four times the price.

Is a new lens coating and a few other tweaks worth 4 times the price?  Or are we seeing a Phase One effect, branding it as a luxury item that MF back owners will be happy to shell out for because it does not seem that expensive relative to a new Phase back?

I'd be interested to see a test up next to the old version to see where the extra $3,000 had been spent.

Quentin
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219964\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


The price is ridiculous. Better to buy a 'mini-large format' system like the linhof or silvestri and use better quality lenses. Which is why I think the Hasselblad V system/fitting is so good. See my post about what fits / what works. Be creative - buy an arcbody, machine the back to fit a Phase One back and use the 45mm Rodenstock lens.
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samuel_js

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New Phase One / Hartbei super rotating prices
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2008, 04:32:10 pm »

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for the same money or even many less dollars you can buy this and make a big change to your business and art life.

 

I'm with you foto-z.
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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2008, 06:24:02 pm »

Quote
I am interested to read about the "new" F/3.5 45mm Hartblei / Phase one Tilt/shift lens.  Like Michael, I bought mine a few years ago, for $999 direct from Hartblei, and its been pretty good.  Essential this seems to be a tweaked version, but at four times the price.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219964\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The Phaseone guys probably finished smoking the carpet of their own place when they decided on the pricing of the P65+, now they have started smoking the double thickness carpet of their neighbours too.

Cheers,
Bernard

gwhitf

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« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2008, 09:40:11 pm »

What was interesting to me was to see still portraiture and video interviews pretty much side by side -- same white seamless; same basic content. I was just shocked at how much more powerful the video interviews were, over the still images.

I would have no idea how to make the transition from still guy to film guy, or even whether I'd want to, and it's not really about that.

It was just a shocking revelation to me to see how static, forced, and unmoving the still images were, after you'd seen those same people move, and speak, and smile, and pause.

I just don't think I've ever seen a project displayed like that -- where the same basic content was shown in stills and in moving imagery.

I thought the whole "wisdom" topic was bit hokey, but that's not really what this discussion is about.
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James R Russell

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« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2008, 11:50:31 pm »

Quote
The interesting thing about that "Wisdom" project is that it was shot with a very expensive digital photo camera and the video was made with cheap handycams...

I actually liked the video though I thought it would be nice if it had more depth, but 15 minutes a person probably doesn't allow for more.  I do like the complete package and the idea of a single serve website, sort of a digital interactive magazine.

This is not a critique because I understand what a huge undertaking this project was and one that the artist should be proud of.  

http://aphotoeditor.com/2008/09/05/single-...s-a-cool-trend/

I think we'll see a lot more of this.

As far as the actual camera or the technique of the video I do think it demonstrates how difficult it is in stills to carry the same visual look from strobe lit still imagery and transform that over to handicam video.  Color timing can help, multiple parallel light setups can also get closer to matching the looks, but matching strobe and continuous is difficult, especially outdoors, regardless of budget.

Quote
Apart from that I fully agree that a 45k movie camera as shown can buy you a lot of value. Still, the full production costs of movies are generally much higher than photo shoots, so your business risk goes up proportionally. And you will depend on many more complex production factors, compared to photography. Owning just a movie camera doesn't mean much in itself, while a photo camera can be the single tool to make you a good income (unless you shoot for others only, in which case you can rent out yourself with your movie camera. But who wants to be in business to be told by others what and how to shoot exactly?) You could also become a DP. You wouldn't need anything else than a viewfinder. Or you could become the president of the US. You wouldn't need any gear at all then.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


In the terms you described I somewhat agree, though you are talking more along the lines of traditional production where moving imagery and still photography rarely meet on equal terms.

That has changed a great deal in the last few years and the crews on large still productions (and the costs) are not much different than that on smaller cinema or motion productions.  Maybe sound, dialog, even camera format can add a different dynamic but the cost and the size of the crew and production can be very close to the same.  

Owning a 30 or $45,000 digital cinema camera does not immediatly make the owner a film maker, but it also doesn't limit the artist to the roll of a dp.  Many directors and photographers can not only work a motion camera but also can shoot stills, also create and be in command of the story and the visuals.  

The thing I see from the $45,000 digital video investment vs. the $45,000 digital back investment is which one will really move your career and your art?  I am sure each person will answer this differently.

It's not always a black and white world and owning and knowing the complete workings of a dedicated motion camera builds the same intimacy as owning and learning your own personal still camera.

I and many others shoot and produce still productions with gaffers, grips, swings, and a lot of cross purposed crew and once you get deep into the 6 figure range of production, adding another 20 to 30% to produce motion is becoming more than a client request, or an interesting back story,  in some instances it's a requirement and one I believe many of us will see more of.

I think for some projects this is very difficult as just the story, even the camera framing can demand a much different perspective and technique on how you work.  It also is difficult to do both the stills and the motion with equal justice.    On others I think it is very close to the same discipline.

I've posted this clip before from a film editor I work with.

[a href=\"http://ishotit.com/SixMan4.mov]http://ishotit.com/SixMan4.mov[/url]

I don't know how others view it but I can see beautiful stills in this imagery, just like I am sure the film maker and director saw a compelling film.


JR

Quentin,

Sorry about changing the subject.  So how bout' that Russian Lens?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2008, 12:55:28 am by James R Russell »
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ixpressraf

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« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2008, 02:51:35 am »

This is the US in a nutshell, what it is all about.... not only in sports but even more in politics. Brilliant James!!!
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HarperPhotos

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« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2008, 06:51:50 pm »

Gidday,

Hopefully someone out there can do a comparison test between the new and old version. As I have just bought the old version Mamiya mount on EBay for $850.00 AUST dollars a few days ago. Haven't received it yet.

Cheers

Simon
« Last Edit: September 08, 2008, 06:56:02 pm by HarperPhotos »
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Simon Harper
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HarperPhotos

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« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2008, 11:43:31 pm »

Gidday,

Just received my second hand Hartblei lens from Australia and took some comparison shots outside in my car park in between the rain.

Mamiya 645AFDII+Leaf Aptus 75

Cheers

Simon
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Simon Harper
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BobDavid

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« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2008, 11:22:49 am »

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Gidday,

Just received my second hand Hartblei lens from Australia and took some comparison shots outside in my car park in between the rain.

Mamiya 645AFDII+Leaf Aptus 75

Cheers

Simon
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=220488\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I love the way that the Boris lens mushes out the details at the edges of the frame. Very dreamy...
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Quentin

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« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2008, 05:21:38 am »

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I love the way that the Boris lens mushes out the details at the edges of the frame. Very dreamy...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=220590\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

'Tis a tad soft at the edges, but OK elsewhere.  I've used mine a fair bit and had generally decent results.  The question is - how much better (for 4 times the price) will the Phase One version be?

Quentin
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haefnerphoto

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« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2008, 11:20:51 am »

Quote
Gidday,

Just received my second hand Hartblei lens from Australia and took some comparison shots outside in my car park in between the rain.

Mamiya 645AFDII+Leaf Aptus 75

Cheers

Simon
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=220488\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



The new lens looks sharper to me, any chance of a 100% cropped area of the center and a corner?  When you zoom in on the files are you seeing a noticeable difference?  Thanks, Jim
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BobDavid

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« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2008, 11:32:38 am »

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I love the way that the Boris lens mushes out the details at the edges of the frame. Very dreamy...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=220590\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I was being sarcastic. I had a "Boris" for a brief while. I ended up putting it on Ebay and buying the Mamiya 50mm shift lens. The Mamiya lens is sharp and exhibits very little CA, if any. Despite the fact that the Mamiya lens doesn't have  a tilt function, I've been able to correct for parallax problems in Photoshop and still get better results than with the Hartblei. I haven't seen the new Hartblei though.
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