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Pantoned

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« on: September 01, 2008, 11:01:03 am »

I usually don't care about speculations rumors but this is simple a matter of money, Photokina is coming and the next 5D is supposed to have 20mp sensors and digIV precessor, better image quality, bla bla... I don't want to enter in details but let's for a moment asume it will have the same (or better) image quality as the 1dsmIII (I repeat, please don't discuss it, just assume it, either it's true or not). Then asuming this and if you have already bought a 1dsmIII just last february and you still need a backup, what would you do?

a) Keep 1dsmIII and buy a 5d2 for backup
 Sell 1dsmIII right now before photokina and buy two 5d2
c) Keep 1dsmIII and buy a 50d as a backup.

I do mostly advertising photography so I always need as much resolution as I possible. MF solutions are out of the question, I've decided to step out of medium format, keep all my mamiya lenses in a box and wait for the market to settle. I don't want large investments, I think the best business plan is just buy the minimum and change it fast.

When I made numbers last year for the 1dsmIII my worst estimations was that I should be able to sell it a year after it was bought at half the price I bought it, but now that prediction looks too much optimistic.

So I have a dual problem, first when canon presents the new 5d at photokina the prices of second hand 1dsmIII will drop. The second problem is that last time I ordered a canon camera it took more than three months to arrive, either because canon supplied the cameras later and scarce or because there was too much of a demand and I was down the line, so I don't want to sell the markIII and have to wait months before the other arrives, but that is the more plausible case. If I sell the markIII now and canon starts shipping lets say... january? I will have to borrow some 1dsmarkII for the meanwhile.

One last question: What is the life cycle of your cameras? Put it in another way: how many cameras have you had in the last let's say four years?

Any suggestions from people in the same situation would be appreciated.

Arnau.
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jerryrock

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« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2008, 12:17:55 pm »

How about waiting until the 5D replacement is actually announced before making your decision.
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Rob C

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« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2008, 01:36:34 pm »

Quote from: Pantoned,Sep 1 2008, 03:01 PM

I do mostly advertising photography so I always need as much resolution as I possible. MF solutions are out of the question, I've decided to step out of medium format, keep all my mamiya lenses in a box and wait for the market to settle. I don't want large investments, I think the best business plan is just buy the minimum and change it fast.




Hola

As you are a professional  photographer, have you tried prices from ARPI in Barcelona? They were very good with me a couple of years ago.

Telefono: 93 301 74 04; Fax: 93 317 95 73

Ciao

Rob C

Pantoned

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« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2008, 02:03:16 pm »

Thanks Rob, yes I know them, and I have a pretty good idea of current digital back prices, I had a ZD before the Canon, and I decided to wait until a digital back could offer me a clean 1600 ISO, with current storage solutions, more than 31mp is too much for me unless it's a multi resolution back like the new p1 is supposed to be, but I think most photographers want to see other improvements besides resolution, being ISO range, low noise and dynamic range improvements the top priorities.

Arnau.


Quote from: Rob C,Sep 1 2008, 06:36 PM
Quote from: Pantoned,Sep 1 2008, 03:01 PM

I do mostly advertising photography so I always need as much resolution as I possible. MF solutions are out of the question, I've decided to step out of medium format, keep all my mamiya lenses in a box and wait for the market to settle. I don't want large investments, I think the best business plan is just buy the minimum and change it fast.
Hola

As you are a professional  photographer, have you tried prices from ARPI in Barcelona? They were very good with me a couple of years ago.

Telefono: 93 301 74 04; Fax: 93 317 95 73

Ciao

Rob C
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Kagetsu

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« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2008, 05:45:28 pm »

Personally, I think it's a little too early to judge if the "1DsIII train is crashing".
There has been a lot of speculation over what we should expect from the next 5D camera from Canon, and the 21mp thought so far has had more basis in rumor thanks to web forums, and constant banter.

Looking at the situation, Canon doesn't need a 21mp 5D replacement to make it a competitive camera. People are once again getting held up in the belief that the higher the model the higher the MP's... Which I'm often quick to point out, that Canon has never followed that trend.

Remember, the 30D, was a super tweaked 20D really (Still 8.2mp) then the 40D came out, and it wasn't all that much of a jump, with the 400D out resolving it by two megapixels.

Even when the 5D was released, many people thought it would canabalise the 1Ds II sales, but if anything, it opened up the full frame market to people it was previously too expensive for. From memory, the price of the 1Ds II didn't drop drastically in the time after its release.

At the end of the day, the only camera the 5DII has to compete with is the D700... And if it does, it'd more realistically be a 15mp sensor or very close to that of the 50D but in full frame form. That way you'll get the 6.3 fps capture, you'll have excellent dynamic qualities, and really after that, the rest is standard.

---

What I'm getting at with the above bits, is that people are getting worried over nothing. If you've made the move to invest in a 1Ds III and it does the job, the chances are that a new 5D replacement will not be any better at doing the same job. Photokina is only a few weeks away, so it'd be a pretty safe bet to say we'll know by then.
It's only three weeks away.

EDIT2: Remember, the only reason people have been suggesting that a 21mp 5D replacement is going to happen is based purely on Sony's entering the full frame market.

There are a few points to remember about Sony's full frame entrance... Firstly, Sony haven't really proven themselves as far as professional photography is concerned... We all watch with a keen eye, but there haven't been a whole lot of 'pros' who've made the switch to them at this point.
Delays are NOT beyond Sony... While they've lead us to believe we'll definantly see their A900 this Photokina in its final or near final trim, there's no reason we'll see it on the market in due time. While the gaming devision is a seperate entity really, the PS3 was delayed substantially, and working prototypes and models were already out more then a year in advance. Even now, the console has very little as far as unique gaming is concerned.
12bit DAC... There's a lot to say about this point, and while it may not be the ultimate deciding point, a lot of people who are interested in the 5D and above, understand the possitive aspects of a 14bit DAC (except those who shoot mostly JPG). The Sony sensor is a 12bit DAC sensor, and while it's been a norm in the 35mm industry up until recently, it may be seen as outdated.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2008, 05:54:46 pm by Kagetsu »
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Derryck

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« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2008, 09:33:22 pm »

I'd be sticking with the 1DsIII and buying the 5DII when it becomes available. I'm sure that the 1DsIII is still going to be made of higher grade materials than the 5D replacement and while it may lack in some areas eg. higher resolution LCD etc it's still going to be a great workhorse.

I just finished shooting a catalog last week for a regular client that up until this time round was shooting it on a Contax with a 17MP Imacon back. Since I purchased the 1DsIII it takes care of 90% of the work with increased speed. I was able to shoot an average of 20-25 shots a day instead of 15-20 and when you're being paid by the shot this is a huge difference.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 09:34:00 pm by Derryck »
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Pantoned

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« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2008, 08:37:24 am »

I'm still on holidays, three days left and the 1dsmIII started giving me error99 yesterday, (better on holidays than working), there is nothing I can do right now, I have tried everything I though on, from removing all batteries, cleaning contacts, reset settngs, changing cf cards...nothing, it's either a shutter or mirror problem. I have to wait for service, this is just the proof that all cameras need a backup.

I think I'm gonna follow your advice and buy a 5dII as a backup, having another full frame makes more sense in order to use the same lense with equal FOV, etc..

Thanks for the coment.

Arnau

Quote
I'd be sticking with the 1DsIII and buying the 5DII when it becomes available. I'm sure that the 1DsIII is still going to be made of higher grade materials than the 5D replacement and while it may lack in some areas eg. higher resolution LCD etc it's still going to be a great workhorse.

I just finished shooting a catalog last week for a regular client that up until this time round was shooting it on a Contax with a 17MP Imacon back. Since I purchased the 1DsIII it takes care of 90% of the work with increased speed. I was able to shoot an average of 20-25 shots a day instead of 15-20 and when you're being paid by the shot this is a huge difference.
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aaykay

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« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2008, 12:09:06 am »

Quote
EDIT2: Remember, the only reason people have been suggesting that a 21mp 5D replacement is going to happen is based purely on Sony's entering the full frame market.

There are a few points to remember about Sony's full frame entrance... Firstly, Sony haven't really proven themselves as far as professional photography is concerned... We all watch with a keen eye, but there haven't been a whole lot of 'pros' who've made the switch to them at this point.
Delays are NOT beyond Sony... While they've lead us to believe we'll definantly see their A900 this Photokina in its final or near final trim, there's no reason we'll see it on the market in due time. While the gaming devision is a seperate entity really, the PS3 was delayed substantially, and working prototypes and models were already out more then a year in advance. Even now, the console has very little as far as unique gaming is concerned.
12bit DAC... There's a lot to say about this point, and while it may not be the ultimate deciding point, a lot of people who are interested in the 5D and above, understand the possitive aspects of a 14bit DAC (except those who shoot mostly JPG). The Sony sensor is a 12bit DAC sensor, and while it's been a norm in the 35mm industry up until recently, it may be seen as outdated.

I think the word on the street is that the Sony A900 is supposed to hit the shopshelves right around the time of announcement (around a week or so away).   Dozens of Sony reps have already handled the finished version, worldwide (multiple continents).   There are also talk that Sony is in fairly advanced stages of picking up some companies that will effectively function along the lines of the Canon/Nikon Service centers, specifically for their Alpha dSLR line.

I think the body with its 25MP sensor, and a 100% viewfinder and estimated 5FPS at its full resolution, with its built-in IS, is supposed to hit the ground at a sub-$3K pricing, which makes it pretty interesting, when one can pair it with the class leading lenses like the Carl Zeiss 24-70 f/2.8 SSM Vario-Sonnar (PopPhoto rated its resolution and micro-contrast higher than even the new Nikon 24-70 f/2.8)  and/or the 24-105 f/4 G SSM (expected to be announced) and the Carl Zeiss 16-35 f/2.8 SSM Vario-Sonnar (expected) and maybe a couple of Zeiss primes with AF, like the 85mm f/1.4 Planar or the 135mm f/1.8 Sonnar.  Also expected are several Zeiss and "G" primes in the 35mm f/1.4SSM, 24mm f/1.4SSM etc specification.  There is also a rumor that a Carl Zeiss 70-200 f/2.8 SSM Vario-Sonnar is also in the final stages of development.

In addition to these, remember that the upcoming longer lenses like the 600mm f/4G SSM along with the 70-400 f/4.5-5.6G SSM etc are all 2008 designs that have been benchmarked and specifically designed for high pixel density Full-frame sensors, with terrific telecentricity, corner-to-corner high-performance on FF Digital sensors and specific optimization for Digital sensors.

I think the whole package of Zeiss lenses above, with the A900 body, would come in at a price that is roughly the same as the 1DSMKIII body alone.  That is pretty tempting, especially when one can have stabilized shots with one's 50mm, 85mm and 135mm primes. The price is cheap enough that it might even tempt some people to shoot dual-system for a while.  

But you are right.  Sony is yet to be a "proven" force in the professional 35mm landscape, like Canon and Nikon but I doubt a giant like Sony, with its sheer breadth and depth in electronics par none (touching every aspect of the "D" in a DSLR), picked up a traditional camera company like Konica-Minolta, to sit around and play in the side-lines for too long.   Every single one of their introductions (including the upcoming A900) have been dot on schedule over the 2 years that they have entered this business, with the availability of the product on shopshelves, almost immediately after the announcement of the product.

All I am saying is, competition is nice.  The more competition that exists, the less the  possibility of Canon sitting on its backside, like they did with the 5D over the past 3 years with absolutely no update whatsoever to the product.   Also, you can bet your bottom dollar that the ONLY reason you are finding the 21MP FF sensor in the upcoming 5DII, with FAR more advanced specification than they normally would have added into it,  is specifically due to the long shadow  cast on it, by the Sony A900....the decision by Canon is not a coincidence by a long shot.
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Kagetsu

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« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2008, 09:03:51 am »

You certainly make a strong point... I'm reconsidering my opinion, but more moving into the "I just wouldn't have a clue at this stage" arena... it'll be interesting to see just what is announced on the 9th/10th...

In any case though, you're absolutely right... Competition is definantly what is required in todays market.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 09:04:55 am by Kagetsu »
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Dennishh

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« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2008, 12:56:39 pm »

The 1dsMKlll is performing above my expectations and has for many jobs now. I would not think of replacing it. I sold my 5D 4 months ago and now need a backup camera. The 7D and 5D both could meet that need, we have to see what the images look like from both these cameras. Right now I am more interested in the 1DsMK4. The last cycle I sold the 5D and kept the 1DSMKll, which I wouldn't do again, but I will sell the MKlll about 6months before the release of the MK4 and shoot with the 3D. This will probably get me about a $1000 more. "A bird in hand is better than two in the bush" seems to apply to this new competitive market. The one wild card in all this is the competition between Canon,Nikon and Sony, anything goes!
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BFoto

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« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2008, 08:24:19 pm »

Maybe this will start some salivation....

You'll see it apears there is no pop-up flash.

http://www.canon.com/moon/en/index.html

yoni

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« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2008, 12:40:24 pm »

If you tweak the evolution image you would see it has a grip. Not clear if detachable or not.  So 1 series camera to clear the air of bad publicity on the mark III? the fabled 5DII?  

Destined Evolution somewhat of an oxymoron.  Evolution in either biological or engineering (as in genetic algorithms) sense is an optimization process whose end product cannot be said to be destined. The process of evolution can be said to be destined but not the product.  If they are telling us that the product to be released is the evolutionary offspring of a prior product, I would say that tells nothing more (or less) exciting than saying 'hey guys we are coming out with a new version'. If they mean to say this is a de novo product that will evolve, than they are saying 'hey guys we are coming out with version .9, want to pay to be beta testers?'. Of course, they could mean that they have encorporated biomemetic components and expect the camera to go forth and multiply and eventually speciate autonomously.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2008, 12:42:40 pm by yoni »
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Kagetsu

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« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2008, 06:12:55 pm »

Quote
If you tweak the evolution image you would see it has a grip. Not clear if detachable or not.  So 1 series camera to clear the air of bad publicity on the mark III? the fabled 5DII?

Actually, on that topic... I too did that, and found a lot more detail on the camera...
I then pulled out the image file, which isn't actually in Flash itself, the original JPG. After boosting the levels, there isn't nearly as much detail in the original image file, but from what it did show, there doesn't appear to be a grip... It simply looks as though Canon have blured something out on the bottom of the webpage screen capture.
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mcfoto

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« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2008, 05:19:52 am »

Hi
The 1DsMKIII handles & feels like the EOS 1 film cameras. we have shot jobs under stress  & the camera plus software have been bullet proof. I am amazed at the file quality from this camera.
Thanks Denis
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Pantoned

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« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2008, 09:27:13 am »

It's not that I don't like the markIII, I do, this is just a matter of money, I bought the camera end of march for 6000€, in september will be 6 months, and I'm sure that when the 5dII goes on streets I won't be able to sell it for 3000. Yesterday I took my camera for service after the error99 and my dealer told me they are selling second hand mark II for around 1200€, I made a quick look in ebay and they are not wrong in prices. So, for what is worth I will keep the markIII with me.

BTW I saw that canon have an extension plan for warranty to 2 years (europe customers) for 1d and 1ds markIII cameras. You just have to register the camera on the web. http://canon2yearwarranty.onlinerebates.com/


Arnau.
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Lust4Life

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« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2008, 08:20:35 am »

Reading the fine print on the web site and you learn that the 2 year warranty is NOT available to cameras purchased in the USA!!  Only covering Euro countries.

Hopefully USA will be added????



Quote
It's not that I don't like the markIII, I do, this is just a matter of money, I bought the camera end of march for 6000€, in september will be 6 months, and I'm sure that when the 5dII goes on streets I won't be able to sell it for 3000. Yesterday I took my camera for service after the error99 and my dealer told me they are selling second hand mark II for around 1200€, I made a quick look in ebay and they are not wrong in prices. So, for what is worth I will keep the markIII with me.

BTW I saw that canon have an extension plan for warranty to 2 years (europe customers) for 1d and 1ds markIII cameras. You just have to register the camera on the web. http://canon2yearwarranty.onlinerebates.com/
Arnau.
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dirkpieters

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« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2008, 02:31:33 pm »

Quote
Reading the fine print on the web site and you learn that the 2 year warranty is NOT available to cameras purchased in the USA!!  Only covering Euro countries.

Hopefully USA will be added????
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Its too late the Mk3 train has crashed and derailed
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heinrichvoelkel

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« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2008, 03:24:14 pm »

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my dealer told me they are selling second hand mark II for around 1200€,
Arnau.
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Which dealer is this? Casanova?

I'm in BCN as well, very intersting statement of you....

Regards
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Ken R

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« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2008, 11:34:41 am »

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Even when the 5D was released, many people thought it would canabalise the 1Ds II sales, ntly, it may be seen as outdated.
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It did. I am an example. I purchased the 5D and didnt buy the 1Ds mk2 even though I wanted it. Few years pass and the 1Ds mk3 came out and I purchased it thinking the top canon dog wouldnt be bested in a while, being an advertising / architectural photographer the 5D resolution was just barely enough at times (and really marginal other times) even with perfect technique and using the best glass at optimum appertures. So I got the 1Ds mk3 and wow. Large difference in image quality. Low and behold the 5D mk2 comes out 6 months after I fork $8k for the 1Ds mk3 and only costs $2600. If the 5D mk2 had been out I would have NEVER purchased the 1Ds mk3. Dont get me wrong I love the 1Ds mk3 but no way Canon should be charging 8k for it. 5K maybe.

Am I gonna sell my 1Dsmk3 and get a 5Dmk2 even though I would take a hit? Well, right now no. I would have to wait until the 5D mk2 is widely available and thoroughly tested / proven out and about. If I do that would I miss the 1Dsmk3? Probably. Its an awesome camera with great performance and handling. But, the $3000 in my pocket would feel pretty good too...
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 11:43:45 am by sneakyracer »
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Christopher

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« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2008, 01:06:05 pm »

Quote
It did. I am an example. I purchased the 5D and didnt buy the 1Ds mk2 even though I wanted it. Few years pass and the 1Ds mk3 came out and I purchased it thinking the top canon dog wouldnt be bested in a while, being an advertising / architectural photographer the 5D resolution was just barely enough at times (and really marginal other times) even with perfect technique and using the best glass at optimum appertures. So I got the 1Ds mk3 and wow. Large difference in image quality. Low and behold the 5D mk2 comes out 6 months after I fork $8k for the 1Ds mk3 and only costs $2600. If the 5D mk2 had been out I would have NEVER purchased the 1Ds mk3. Dont get me wrong I love the 1Ds mk3 but no way Canon should be charging 8k for it. 5K maybe.

Am I gonna sell my 1Dsmk3 and get a 5Dmk2 even though I would take a hit? Well, right now no. I would have to wait until the 5D mk2 is widely available and thoroughly tested / proven out and about. If I do that would I miss the 1Dsmk3? Probably. Its an awesome camera with great performance and handling. But, the $3000 in my pocket would feel pretty good too...
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sry, if it sounds dump, but that is life.
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