treatment plan at estimating stage?

[mcfoto]

Hi
This has come up a few times for quotes with AD agencies here in Sydney Australia. Where when you send in your estimate/quote with how you plan to approach the project. At the same time you are in a competitive quote with two other photographers. Is anyone doing this? My biggest challenge with a treatment plan is that you are giving up too much before you get the job. They could use some of your ideas with the photographer of choice. But at the same time is there a simple way of doing a treatment plan.
Thanks Denis

[amsp]

If you're giving away some really unique idea you could always seal a signed copy of it in an envelope (the kind that can't be opened without ripping it) and mail it to yourself. That way you will have a date stamped proof of your idea in case they steal it and you want to take legal action. Don't know if this is something that works in your particular country though.

[TSJ1927]

I refer to this as a "hollow bid" . Just another AD trying to get a photo bud the job with the obligatory multiple bids.  This happend for several years from one AD on an annual report.   I just quit responding to her email request for bids..... wasn't going to get it even if I did it for free.  Move on look up!

[gwhitf]

http://www.heathermorton.ca/blog/?p=180

good Comments too.

[elitegroup]

Kia Ora,

I've used Adobe Acrobat 9 Pro Extended to create a treatment plan. Merge flash, movies, animation, jpeg and media rich files into an interactive portfolio. You then have the option to encrypt the pdf document with a password and a modification date. I believe You can specify 24hr access after which the client will no longer have permission to use/view the document.

This is one way to protect your storyboard from being plagiarized  

There is a flash tutorial here http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobatproextended/

Hope this helps!

[DiaAzul]

Hi
This has come up a few times for quotes with AD agencies here in Sydney Australia. Where when you send in your estimate/quote with how you plan to approach the project. At the same time you are in a competitive quote with two other photographers. Is anyone doing this? My biggest challenge with a treatment plan is that you are giving up too much before you get the job. They could use some of your ideas with the photographer of choice. But at the same time is there a simple way of doing a treatment plan.
Thanks Denis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218188\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What you are describing is quite common outside of the Photographic industry - it's just the way that corporate business works. You will find that the degree to which people treat information you give them ethically (i.e. give you compensation and credit for anything you contribute) varies greatly depending on companies and individuals. It may sound like a cliché but 'Know your customer' and form personal relationships. This gives you the insight to pitch at the correct level (either to win the business or avoid being ripped off). The better your personal relationship the more chance you have of winning - not because there is any underhand favouritism - but because you end up only bidding for those jobs you are going to win and pitching at the correct level to profitably win business when you will win.

It is vague and woolly advice (and may be teaching egg sucking), but this is a Zen thing - you will know how to do the right thing, once you understand who you are doing it for.

[amsp]

Kia Ora,

I've used Adobe Acrobat 9 Pro Extended to create a treatment plan. Merge flash, movies, animation, jpeg and media rich files into an interactive portfolio. You then have the option to encrypt the pdf document with a password and a modification date. I believe You can specify 24hr access after which the client will no longer have permission to use/view the document.

This is one way to protect your storyboard from being plagiarized   

There is a flash tutorial here http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobatproextended/

Hope this helps!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218251\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The problem with "high-tech" solutions like this is that there are always ways around it, you can take a screen shot of the PDF or just open it in a non-Adobe PDF reader and the security features will be nullified. At least that's how it's been in the past.

[Snook]

The problem with "high-tech" solutions like this is that there are always ways around it, you can take a screen shot of the PDF or just open it in a non-Adobe PDF reader and the security features will be nullified. At least that's how it's been in the past.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218262\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I agree and it is very fustrating... to say the least..
Happens to me all the time..
I usually send them a HUGE budget just to show them I know they are fishing for Budgets plans..
I never send Ideas.. that is their friggin JOB..

A lot of these stupid agency get all the money and usually do not do crap!!

I have a local guy here who wins all his art directors from the agency by buying them nice gifts fro x-mas.. I cannot stoop that low. One of the bad things about living in a "almost" 3rd world country!!

Snook

[Dustbak]

Interesting read...

I have never worked for an agency but by now have worked for clients that used to go to agencies. I guess I have stepped on several agencies toes with that. I did find out that the agencies typically charge 100% to 200% on top of what I charge (I am not expensive nor cheap).

I have been in pitches when I used to work for an agency myself. Never liked that because you do tend to loose a lot of time with a big uncertainty of getting the account and with certainly knowing they will use your ideas if they like. This 'treatment' sounds like the same kind of thing. We did install things like, letting the potential client pay for the pitch and discount it when the offered us the job. This did work very well. Only with very big clients and extremely big budgets we just went and did the pitch, several of these we also won BTW but fortunately the costs for these pitches were not on my budget

I now rarely do things as test shoots or other 'proof-myself' things. Than again, I don't do major productions. Not sure whether I ever will or want to again (as a photographer).

[James R Russell]

The problem with "high-tech" solutions like this is that there are always ways around it, you can take a screen shot of the PDF or just open it in a non-Adobe PDF reader and the security features will be nullified. At least that's how it's been in the past.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218262\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Most of this comes down to common sense.

I had three meetings this week with clients whose motives and questions are valid.  They want to know our process, how we work, how we approach a job from the creative to the final delivery.

They can talk numbers, production, how they've worked in the past, what they want to see in the future.

For those clients who are doing honest, serious business, going the extra effort to prepare treatments and presentations are worth the investment.  You also know that going forward with a client that is up front and honest about their motives  and will be a pleasure to work with.

I understand this level of client asking for as much clarification as possible.

JR

[Studio12NYC]

It comes and it goes.  There are people you know will be straight up and honest and there are the ones that are not.  If it is the first time you are working with them, I would just throw it out there and see what happens.  If they continue to call for BS quotes year after year with no work, then you just blow them off as another suggested.

The whole copying of work was discussed in earlier threads that were locked.  Copying happens from everyone and AD's are the least original at times.

On the whole gift part.  It is one of the stupidest comments I have ever heard.  If I am making 100,000.00 a year off someone, you can bet that they will receive gifts.  No AD or CD will hire me just because of my gifts.  They'll hire me because of the work I deliver and how much fun it is to hang on set.  I have given gifts from as little as an iPod to a fully customized Macbook Pro loaded with their favorite music an iPod and a Canon Elph.  It shows the time and care you put into the clients surroundings.  I supply them with concert tickets to favorite shows that I know they want to go to and anything I think they may enjoy.  I pay attention to all of my surroundings at all times to pick up little tidbits of information.  Then I surprise them out of the blue and they are floored that I knew or remembered.

They supply me with the greatest gift possible, the ability to shoot and work on a constant basis.  Now mind you, they don't hire me for everything.  We go for drinks, hang and talk about jobs they have going on.  I realize I am not appropriate for all jobs.  That comes with maturity, what many people lack.  I completely understand when they ask for a budget sometimes and I don't get it.  At the end of the day, it is not the decision of one person.

[Brent Daniels]

Hi Denis

I am really surprised you are "just" having this come up. I know that your agent (or past agent) has done treatments before. For just about every decent sized job there is usually a request for a treatment.

Most times it is for the agency to justify the client's "bloody hell it is only a photograph" cost concerns with why you & Gay cost so much more that junior next door. However there are agencies that will pass your treatment to a cheaper photographer and then say "Here is how to do it" .

You could try putting in a non disclosure agreement but then that can be viewed negatively. However most people with honest intentions do not complain as loudly.

Right now you have two choices. Do the treatment and be in the game, or not do the treatment and walk away.

I keep all treatments and now can do some cut & paste to speed up the bullshit.

Give me a call if you want to discus.

Cheers
Brent Daniels

[hs0zfe]

In most cases, the whole process is a charade. They need you as an also ran.

I know of such a relationship which won't be interrupted on quality or price.

Whether to bid might come down to your gut feeling. Often, the hardest part is getting a job! Once you get the chance to impress them favorably, then you can keep bidding without worries or doubts. But first, you need a chance... which will require to jump through hoops.

[mcfoto]

Hi Denis

I am really surprised you are "just" having this come up. I know that your agent (or past agent) has done treatments before. For just about every decent sized job there is usually a request for a treatment.

Most times it is for the agency to justify the client's "bloody hell it is only a photograph" cost concerns with why you & Gay cost so much more that junior next door. However there are agencies that will pass your treatment to a cheaper photographer and then say "Here is how to do it" .

You could try putting in a non disclosure agreement but then that can be viewed negatively. However most people with honest intentions do not complain as loudly.

Right now you have two choices. Do the treatment and be in the game, or not do the treatment and walk away.

I keep all treatments and now can do some cut & paste to speed up the bullshit.

Give me a call if you want to discus.

Cheers
Brent Daniels
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218623\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Brent
Thanks for that & yes I have been caught out giving our treatment/ideas & the job going to another photographer using part or most of our approach. In this case we did give a treatment but it was less in depth in comparison to the other photographers. Personally I am not keen on treatments. I will call you next week as we are busy on another project to talk about treatments as they are becoming part of the woodwork like it or not.
Thanks Denis