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Author Topic: Output Print Sharpening  (Read 6261 times)

MDaniels80

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Output Print Sharpening
« on: August 27, 2008, 09:47:09 pm »

I've been trying to print photos in LR2 (in LR1 I always sent it to CS3 because I wasn't thrilled with the results).  I've been hoping in version 2 I would be able to eliminate the step of moving to cs3 for all my photos, and do this when only necessary.
So I've been using the sharpening in Develop to sharpen for the softness of RAW.  Then when printing I would use output sharpen.  My first sample, I already have problems.  It is a photo of a stature made of stone that has a very grainy look.  When using the output sharpening, I came across two problems. One is that edges look jagged, or pixilated, and are not smooth.  Also, in this one example, in a smooth area of the face where there is a grain, I can see a faint checkerboard pattern.  This is not from the printer.  At high output sharpening, it is more pronounced.  This is not in the original photo, and does not print out when choosing No Output Sharpening.  
Either I am doing something wrong, or there is a problem with the output sharpening.  From what I hear, people are really happy with the output sharpening, so I can't imagine what I could be doing wrong, but it def. is a possibility that I am.
I had also printed a photo last week in LR 2, of a curved foot bridge.  I remember looked at it, a seeing a pixilation/jaggedness to this as well.  So it is not the only photo I have noticed the problem.

Anyone have any ideas or insight???
Thanks.
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Schewe

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Output Print Sharpening
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2008, 12:46:12 am »

What is the source image, what are your detail settings? What is the cell size in Print, what is the resolution? Is the image naturally the correct orientation or do you have auto-rotate on? Need a LOT more info to go on...

Some people seem to be having issues with output resolution, see: Loss od Sharpness Printing Actual Size from Lightroom on the Lightroom forums...
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MDaniels80

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Output Print Sharpening
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2008, 09:33:47 pm »

Quote
What is the source image, what are your detail settings? What is the cell size in Print, what is the resolution? Is the image naturally the correct orientation or do you have auto-rotate on? Need a LOT more info to go on...

Some people seem to be having issues with output resolution, see: Loss od Sharpness Printing Actual Size from Lightroom on the Lightroom forums...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=217727\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
 

Hi is the information- hope it helps.
I am printing a landscape photo- LR orients it to portrait and it prints in portrait mode.  
Zoom to fill and Rotate to fit at both checked.
Margins are .11/.12
Page Grid is 1:1
Call size is 5.76 by 3.76
Print Job:
Print Resolution 240ppi
Print sharpening Med or High
Media Type Glossy (Epson Prem Glossy)
Profiled to Spr1800 Permium Glossy
Redering Intent, Perceptual

Raw File 12MP
If you need additional info, let me know.

Really hoping it is just me!  Thanks.
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Nill Toulme

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Output Print Sharpening
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2008, 09:45:59 pm »

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...Is the image naturally the correct orientation or do you have auto-rotate on?...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=217727\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That's an interesting question.  Are you suggesting that rotating an image 90 degrees can affect its output quality?

Nill
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Schewe

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Output Print Sharpening
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2008, 11:31:07 pm »

Try changing your page setup to landscape, uncheck the rotate and setting a specific cell size (not zoom to fill) and set the resolution OFF (with a 12 MP capture, you are seriously wasting resolution for a 5x3 print).
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MDaniels80

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Output Print Sharpening
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2008, 04:19:27 pm »

That seems to be the problem. I  was printing a landscape in Portrait mode and when it auto rotates, it does not print properly.  I also have the problem of a slightly noticeable checkered pattern in one part of the photo, but it could be possible it is the image and not LR.  Its also very very hard to see it, but when printed in portrait, it did become more noticeable.  I am not to concerned, but will probably see if this shows in CS3.  
I am wondering if this portrait/landscape mode is a bug, or is this just a normal problem, and should always print in the orientation the photo was taken in.  I also think the Page Setup is in an odd spot on the left.  Took me forever to finally find it, since everything else is on the right side of the window.  But at least now I can start printing, and I do like the output using Output sharpening.  Thanks for all the help.
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Schewe

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Output Print Sharpening
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2008, 05:22:38 pm »

Quote
I am wondering if this portrait/landscape mode is a bug, or is this just a normal problem
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218326\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Bug...
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rdonson

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Output Print Sharpening
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2008, 07:02:00 pm »

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Bug...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218337\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Jeff, since you seemed to have spotted this right off is it fair to assume that Adobe is aware of this and its on a bug/fix list?
« Last Edit: August 31, 2008, 09:35:42 am by rdonson »
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Regards,
Ron

Schewe

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Output Print Sharpening
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2008, 07:07:50 pm »

Yep, they are looking into it...
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rdonson

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Output Print Sharpening
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2008, 09:36:17 am »

Thanks, Jeff.
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Regards,
Ron

walter.sk

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Output Print Sharpening
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2008, 11:54:09 am »

I hope this is related enough to the topic.  I would like to have control over the Develop default settings, especially the sharpening settings.  I much preferred the setting available in the Browser, where I was able to save a Camera Raw setup as a default, with sharpening set for Preview Only.  I had found that the setting of 50 for the amount gave me a good idea of how my 1DMkii images would actually look in terms of sharpness.

I use Focus Magic to replace Capture Sharpening, and I let Qimage's smart sharpening do the output sharpening on the fly.  Regardless of the "advisability"  of this workflow, it is my preference.  Right now, I have to remember to set the sharpening amount in Develop to 0.  I know I can save a preset to apply a Develop setting to other images, but I would like to set up my own "default" preset, as before.

I also would like to be offered the choice of my RGB values to be expressed in the old way, from 0-255 rather than percentages.  I realize that the 0-255 is a fiction with 16-bit Prophoto color, but I understand it better and it has become much more intuitive for me.

If LightRoom is about facilitating the way photographers work, why cut down on the flexibility that was already in Photoshop/the Browser?  I don't think being able to choose the readout in Levels or Curves, or the default sharpness settings would present a large problem to the LightRoom programmers.
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Schewe

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Output Print Sharpening
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2008, 01:51:24 pm »

Quote
I would like to have control over the Develop default settings, especially the sharpening settings.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218495\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


RTFM...there is already a method of changing your "default" to anything you want and you can do so based on camera serial number and even ISO.

Quote
I also would like to be offered the choice of my RGB values to be expressed in the old way, from 0-255 rather than percentages.

And this would be based on WHAT color space? The processing pipeline is using ProPhoto RGB in linear gamma and the readouts and histogram are based on ProPhoto RGB and an sRGB tone curve (Melissa RGB) so what color space would YOU suggest Lightroom be using to give the 0-255 readouts?

You would prolly do better by not trying to fight the way Lightroom works and learn how to use it without trying to compare it to Photoshop.
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Mark D Segal

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Output Print Sharpening
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2008, 09:27:45 pm »

Jeff, I seem to be noticing small differences between image appearance as it is in LR after all my adjustments, and after it's rendered in PSCS3 (before soft proofing). It's not huge, but it's noticeable - slightly more contrast and slightly lighter in the LR version. I'm wondering whether this is something quirky related to the set of images I'm working on now (very contrasty night stuff), systematic or my imagination. In any case, once I activate soft-proof subtle adjustments are usually needed, so this is not a train-smash, but I'm wondering about it.

Cheers,

Mark
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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madmanchan

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Output Print Sharpening
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2008, 10:29:08 am »

Mark, can you take screen captures and compare directly?

In general, the background is darker in LR so this may give you the impression that its preview rendering is lighter by comparison.
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Eric Chan

Mark D Segal

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« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2008, 11:56:37 am »

Quote
Mark, can you take screen captures and compare directly?

In general, the background is darker in LR so this may give you the impression that its preview rendering is lighter by comparison.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218690\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Eric,

I'll do that and report back. Two salient aspects of this, however are (i) yes - background makes a difference to colour perception for sure, but the shades of grey in LR2 and my CS3 set-up are close; (ii) the RGB numbers differ between the LR2 read-out and the CS3 read-out. While both are in ProPhoto, I'm wondering whether "Melissa" is a factor?

Cheers,

Mark
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2008, 12:45:25 pm »

Eric,

This gets interesting - haven't done the screen grabs yet - I'll do those next. But I did something more in-depth. Important background data - I'm printing with the Epson 3800 using 13*19 inch Ilford Gold Fibre Silk and a custom profile (a paper and inkset combination which puts far less demand on soft-proofing than would a matte paper). I'm working with challenging high contrast images - huge Chinese lanterns lit-up at night by the shore of Lake Ontario. Exposure at capture and then luminosity settings in LR had to be done carefully to get a satisfactory balance between dark tones, mid-tones and highlights, while avoiding clipping important highlight detail.

I decided to conduct two parallel workflows (A) Straight through in LR2 simply activating the print module, setting it all up for the printer, paper size, margins, choice of paper profile, "Standard" Output Sharpening, 300 PPI and push Print. It did a very good job even without soft-proofing. Export the same image to PSCS3 and once there, activate soft proof, make the compensating Curves adjustments, implement PK Inkjet Output Sharpener for 300 PPI and push Print.

Comparing the two images, I couldn't really say that one is overall decisively better than the other in any respect. There are minor differences of tonality in different parts of the image - most likely on account of how I curved for the soft-proof; sharpness was pretty much the same. Needless to say, the CS3 route is more labour-intensive. So bravo to Lightroom.

The advantage of this methodology, while not a fully consistent treatment, is that it replicates my characteristic workflow in each application. To be fully consistent, I printed the CS3 version straight as received from LR2 with no tweaking at all, save for PK Output Sharpening. The two prints - the one printed from LR2 and the other from CS3 un-tweaked after exporting from LR are virtually indistinguishable.

Of course this is a sample of one. I may try several more comparisons over the next while (on smaller less costly sheets of paper!) to see whether these observations hold. But so far it looks as if there is a high degree of final results consistency regardless of this differing display appearance observation, which I shall test with screen grabs as you suggest.

Cheers,

Mark
« Last Edit: September 01, 2008, 12:46:46 pm by MarkDS »
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2008, 02:15:42 pm »

Eric,

I've done the screen grabs, and layered the CS3 grab on top of the LR2 grab. The register is off perhaps a couple of millimeters because the grab framing was very close but not identical between the two mages. The sizes of the grabs are not the same because the LR image is smaller on the display than is the CS3 image, so I downsized the CS3 version from about 8.5 inches to 6.5 inches at 96 PPI. The Background is the LR2 version. When I turn off the CS3 layer, there is a very slight brightening. Same settings for creating the screen grabs and same background. The difference is noticeable but very small and easy to deal with.

Cheers,

Mark
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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