MFDB aproach to location food photography

[Robin Balas]

I currently own and use a Leaf Aptus 65 back on a Mamiya AFDII system for general out of studio use. And I have just started a once every month 2-3 day assignment outside my studio shooting food for a weekly magazine. The first shoot was an eye opener to the shortcomings of a fixed lens design and not having T/S available, as I have always shot food either in my studio or brough a LF solution out.

Now I have to decide if I should start using my 1DsII again with the 90mm TS-E or get a suitable lens for the Mamiya if one exists or lug along the Sinar P2 using the live view adapter. I think the 1DsII should be allowed retirement as the files are not up to par compared to the Aptus back.
I do not have suitable optics yet for the Mamiya, and I do need sharper optics if the P2 should be resurrected for real jobs and not just my privet projects. So I will need to spend some money on both alternatives to be happy.

I really dislike the idea of not having tilts and also sometimes shifts for this kind of work, hence my 1DsII still see a lot of use in the outside world.
I also have a though that maybe I could use a RZ67ProIId with the 75mm tilt/shift lens and get a AFDII  adapter plate OR I could get the  Mamiya 120mm Macro and forget T/S capabilities OR use the Sinar P2 and get a 80mm Digitar for that particular use.

The shoots will be mostly indoors, but not always. It will be mostly in the same location but again not always. I feel the Sinar could be ok for the indoor regular location work, but a nightmare for outdoors or foreign locations as I use a live view solution. I do need to get a sliding back for that use, or?

I would really appreciate some thoughts about shooting food with fixed lens, not having tilts available. The though is not appealing to me, but I haven't  tried that as I never have been in a situation where proper T/S optics isn't available to me for my normal bread and butter camera. I have tried the Hartblei 45mm for Mamiya, but it is an awkward focal length and crap in the corners for CA and softness even on the Aptus 65.

Any thoughts are welcome, and the budget for this series of shots is decent but not that good, spending more than 4-5000$ with a one year look ahead is about the limit. Then I rather use the 1DsII and do away with my personal bias against those files. I will be renting some equipment to try out, but getting LF rental equipment in Norway is a hassle and expensive as I do not live in the capital. So any experiences with T/S solutions which is portable and MFDB adaptable is welcomed.
Regards
Robin Balas

[Graham Mitchell]

You get so much more flexibility and better image quality with a view camera, that it seems the obvious solution for your needs. Having live view makes it even easier. For outdoor locations I'd shoot tethered. I'm not sure about Leaf live view but the Sinar version works nicely with a laptop. No ground glass or focus screen necessary.

[thsinar]

Robin,

I just want to remind about the possibility to convert your p2 into a p3, simply by changing the 4x5" frames and getting the 100mm ones, or the front (lens) 100mm frame with the sliding adapter in the back (Mamiya mount): this is a cost effective solution.

Your lenses can then be mounted on a p3 100 lens mount, or else there are all the current Sinaron Digital lenses which are available in CPL mount (Copal).

For more information you can get in touch with our distributor:

Askim Fag-Import AS
P.B 44
3163 Nøtterøy

Phone: (+47) 333 20 389
Fax: (+47) 333 23 080
E-mail: jarle@mamiya.no
Website: www.mamiya.no

Or then you can contact our Area Sales Manager (helga.frorath@sinarcameras.com).

Best regards,
Thierry

I currently own and use a Leaf Aptus 65 back on a Mamiya AFDII system for general out of studio use. And I have just started a once every month 2-3 day assignment outside my studio shooting food for a weekly magazine. The first shoot was an eye opener to the shortcomings of a fixed lens design and not having T/S available, as I have always shot food either in my studio or brough a LF solution out.

Now I have to decide if I should start using my 1DsII again with the 90mm TS-E or get a suitable lens for the Mamiya if one exists or lug along the Sinar P2 using the live view adapter. I think the 1DsII should be allowed retirement as the files are not up to par compared to the Aptus back.
I do not have suitable optics yet for the Mamiya, and I do need sharper optics if the P2 should be resurrected for real jobs and not just my privet projects. So I will need to spend some money on both alternatives to be happy.

I really dislike the idea of not having tilts and also sometimes shifts for this kind of work, hence my 1DsII still see a lot of use in the outside world.
I also have a though that maybe I could use a RZ67ProIId with the 75mm tilt/shift lens and get a AFDII  adapter plate OR I could get the  Mamiya 120mm Macro and forget T/S capabilities OR use the Sinar P2 and get a 80mm Digitar for that particular use.

The shoots will be mostly indoors, but not always. It will be mostly in the same location but again not always. I feel the Sinar could be ok for the indoor regular location work, but a nightmare for outdoors or foreign locations as I use a live view solution. I do need to get a sliding back for that use, or?

I would really appreciate some thoughts about shooting food with fixed lens, not having tilts available. The though is not appealing to me, but I haven't  tried that as I never have been in a situation where proper T/S optics isn't available to me for my normal bread and butter camera. I have tried the Hartblei 45mm for Mamiya, but it is an awkward focal length and crap in the corners for CA and softness even on the Aptus 65.

Any thoughts are welcome, and the budget for this series of shots is decent but not that good, spending more than 4-5000$ with a one year look ahead is about the limit. Then I rather use the 1DsII and do away with my personal bias against those files. I will be renting some equipment to try out, but getting LF rental equipment in Norway is a hassle and expensive as I do not live in the capital. So any experiences with T/S solutions which is portable and MFDB adaptable is welcomed.
Regards
Robin Balas
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=217276\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[Martin Kristiansen]

I would also try to get the back working on location on a view camera. It wont cost too much I think. I use my Leaf back on a Cambo and even carry it up mountains and such. I used a 1DS MKII for a long time and thought I was doing OK with the set of 3 TS lenses but really they don't compare to a view camera. I am selling them now.

I use a sliding back adapter when untethered and live view when tethered.

[PdF]

I'm using a P2 with the Sinarcam2 shutter, who works very good... when I don't need fast exposure times (1/30 maximum). But I work quite allways with flashes.

The rotating back of the P2 mount is a very attractive element of this combination. It's more complicated with a P3 (and with the Sinar m, of course).

The 4 shots (or 16 shots) mode is also very important to give best results. But, in food applications, it can make some problems with non-stabilisated parts of the subject, when they are present...

I only would know when will the eXposure program be available for "old" Sinarbacks.

PdF

[snickgrr]

Have you thought about using the Leaf on the Fuji 680?  When I first got into MFDB I was coming out of using large format 95% of the time and thought the Fuji would fit the bill.  The Fuji does have two constraints..one being a lack of a wider lens than a 50mm and the other being the swings/tilts and rise and fall are somewhat restricted and only available on the front standard.  

I shoot a fair amount of food with it and you're right, it is problematic without having the focusing abilities afforded through using tilts and the like.

[michele]

For what do you need a tilt/shift lens? If you need averything in focus a tilt lens it's not so good...also with a small sensor like your Leaf 65, you will always can use few degrees of tilt, that's because alla digital backs have many problems with the light coming from the very deep corner of a lens; so if you want the very best quality I think you should shot different frames with different focus points and then marge everything with photoshop...just an exemple...

[free1000]

I currently own and use a Leaf Aptus 65 back on a Mamiya AFDII system for general out of studio use. And I have just started a once every month 2-3 day assignment outside my studio shooting food for a weekly magazine. The first shoot was an eye opener to the shortcomings of a fixed lens design and not having T/S available, as I have always shot food either in my studio or brough a LF solution out.

Now I have to decide if I should start using my 1DsII again with the 90mm TS-E or get a suitable lens for the Mamiya if one exists or lug along the Sinar P2 using the live view adapter. I think the 1DsII should be allowed retirement as the files are not up to par compared to the Aptus back.
I do not have suitable optics yet for the Mamiya, and I do need sharper optics if the P2 should be resurrected for real jobs and not just my privet projects. So I will need to spend some money on both alternatives to be happy.

I really dislike the idea of not having tilts and also sometimes shifts for this kind of work, hence my 1DsII still see a lot of use in the outside world.
I also have a though that maybe I could use a RZ67ProIId with the 75mm tilt/shift lens and get a AFDII  adapter plate OR I could get the  Mamiya 120mm Macro and forget T/S capabilities OR use the Sinar P2 and get a 80mm Digitar for that particular use.

The shoots will be mostly indoors, but not always. It will be mostly in the same location but again not always. I feel the Sinar could be ok for the indoor regular location work, but a nightmare for outdoors or foreign locations as I use a live view solution. I do need to get a sliding back for that use, or?

I would really appreciate some thoughts about shooting food with fixed lens, not having tilts available. The though is not appealing to me, but I haven't  tried that as I never have been in a situation where proper T/S optics isn't available to me for my normal bread and butter camera. I have tried the Hartblei 45mm for Mamiya, but it is an awkward focal length and crap in the corners for CA and softness even on the Aptus 65.

Any thoughts are welcome, and the budget for this series of shots is decent but not that good, spending more than 4-5000$ with a one year look ahead is about the limit. Then I rather use the 1DsII and do away with my personal bias against those files. I will be renting some equipment to try out, but getting LF rental equipment in Norway is a hassle and expensive as I do not live in the capital. So any experiences with T/S solutions which is portable and MFDB adaptable is welcomed.
Regards
Robin Balas
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you don't mind limiting yourself to a minimum focal length of about 90mm you can use a standard Ebony field camera with a Cambo sliding back. You need an adapter to join the parts together which I made myself. Cambo would make a properly engineered one if requested.  

I've used this with a 72XL with some movements. With 90+ you get good movements.  An ebony 23 or 45 could probably be got for about $2000 second hand. A Cambo sliding back is about $2000 (there might be a cheaper alternative). I like the Cambo sliding back because it has a built in loupe that works well.  I have the version with a 'stitching' mask in the loupe, you can get standard masks as well.

Here is some pictures of my set up.  I wouldn't recommend it for most purposes, but for selective focus (eg: food) it could work I think.

[a href=\"http://archive.paulfreeman.net/c/prwfreeman/gallery-show/G00008ojDtv6buUo]http://archive.paulfreeman.net/c/prwfreema...00008ojDtv6buUo[/url]

I don't use this for much, its a side project and it doesnt fit with my architectural work.

[Robin Balas]

For what do you need a tilt/shift lens? If you need averything in focus a tilt lens it's not so good...also with a small sensor like your Leaf 65, you will always can use few degrees of tilt, that's because alla digital backs have many problems with the light coming from the very deep corner of a lens; so if you want the very best quality I think you should shot different frames with different focus points and then marge everything with photoshop...just an exemple...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=217296\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Limiting DoF and for extending DoF where I want it to be, I don't have time to go more into the benefits of T/S. If it don't suit ones shooting style its ok by me, but I am insisting on having it and using it sometimes subliminally and sometimes creativly. Mostly its about putting the sharpness where it is supporting the Logo/Name on products and enforcing a softer background by deliberately tilting the plane of focus the correct way.

Aptus 65 is not so small as you think, do the math and you will see that the difference from 645 to Aptus 75 is more than the difference from Aptus 75 to 65, and in my opinion it doesn't restrict or become a hindrance at all for this particular purpose or the other uses I have for it, and then the price difference didn't make sense to me. Its like the 1DII vs. 1DsII cameras I used to use, the 1DII would force me out of the sloppy corners of Canons wide optics. The alternative when I decided this would have been an Aptus 22 back, and I had some hands-on experience with the 22 prior to my decision and I choose the 65 because I had some issues with the 22 over the 65 back then (base ISO25 and real life shots in twilight was impossible on ISO 200), and it was way less expensive. Today I wouldn't have chosen either but I am stuck with my investment for some time to come now, in a year or two it will be time to decide again. Then I might get a RED Epic instead - only time will tell what happens then.
MHO.

[wollom]

For what do you need a tilt/shift lens? If you need averything in focus a tilt lens it's not so good...also with a small sensor like your Leaf 65, you will always can use few degrees of tilt, that's because alla digital backs have many problems with the light coming from the very deep corner of a lens; <snip>
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=217296\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Michele,  You've kind of 'hit the nail on the head' three times in your post...NOT!  Tilting the lens tilts the plane of focus: sometimes that's the only way to get the right result in professional photography, the amount of tilt required is not sensor-dependant, tilting does not change the sensor-light incident angle so some of the high angle of incidence/sensor effects do not apply.

The reality is that for those folk who relied on the movements of a large format camera for a living recent 'digital' cameras have been good and bad.  Digital is like universal film and Polaroid in miniature.  But I don't think there is a camera with 'miniature' precision and the same range movements of LF cameras from 40 years ago.

Bear with me, this might sound perverse, remember tilting controls the plane of focus.   That means what's in focus AND out of focus.  Sometimes out of focus control is the goal.  For example, on a P65 the photographer might be using f5.6 to limit the depth of field and tilting to get the appropriate plane of focus.

Finally, photographers' eyes haven't miniaturised.  The Canon TSE's are fantastic but for accurate tilt control everything is too small.  Same with MF.  Live View and a portable external screen are probably the answer.  But right now a 'small' camera with a computer and six hour power supply is no longer 'small', or as simple as a 4x5.

end-of-lesson

Wollom

[Larry_Menzin]

I'm using an Arca-Swiss F-Metric 6x9 with a Rotaslide sliding back and this is a great camera with full movements and reasonable size/weight. A P2 would be a monster to carry around. The Rotaslide can be fitted with a Mamiya plate.

Larry

I currently own and use a Leaf Aptus 65 back on a Mamiya AFDII system for general out of studio use. And I have just started a once every month 2-3 day assignment outside my studio shooting food for a weekly magazine. The first shoot was an eye opener to the shortcomings of a fixed lens design and not having T/S available, as I have always shot food either in my studio or brough a LF solution out.

Now I have to decide if I should start using my 1DsII again with the 90mm TS-E or get a suitable lens for the Mamiya if one exists or lug along the Sinar P2 using the live view adapter. I think the 1DsII should be allowed retirement as the files are not up to par compared to the Aptus back.
I do not have suitable optics yet for the Mamiya, and I do need sharper optics if the P2 should be resurrected for real jobs and not just my privet projects. So I will need to spend some money on both alternatives to be happy.

I really dislike the idea of not having tilts and also sometimes shifts for this kind of work, hence my 1DsII still see a lot of use in the outside world.
I also have a though that maybe I could use a RZ67ProIId with the 75mm tilt/shift lens and get a AFDII  adapter plate OR I could get the  Mamiya 120mm Macro and forget T/S capabilities OR use the Sinar P2 and get a 80mm Digitar for that particular use.

The shoots will be mostly indoors, but not always. It will be mostly in the same location but again not always. I feel the Sinar could be ok for the indoor regular location work, but a nightmare for outdoors or foreign locations as I use a live view solution. I do need to get a sliding back for that use, or?

I would really appreciate some thoughts about shooting food with fixed lens, not having tilts available. The though is not appealing to me, but I haven't  tried that as I never have been in a situation where proper T/S optics isn't available to me for my normal bread and butter camera. I have tried the Hartblei 45mm for Mamiya, but it is an awkward focal length and crap in the corners for CA and softness even on the Aptus 65.

Any thoughts are welcome, and the budget for this series of shots is decent but not that good, spending more than 4-5000$ with a one year look ahead is about the limit. Then I rather use the 1DsII and do away with my personal bias against those files. I will be renting some equipment to try out, but getting LF rental equipment in Norway is a hassle and expensive as I do not live in the capital. So any experiences with T/S solutions which is portable and MFDB adaptable is welcomed.
Regards
Robin Balas
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=217276\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[dirkpieters]

I currently own and use a Leaf Aptus 65 back.
Robin Balas
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=217276\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Robin

At the moment I shoot for our 2 best food mags in South Africa with the MK III/ 90mm TS and I get great results.Its interesting that you posted this because I want to buy an Aptus 65 because I am looking for the Hasselblad lens tonality again (even though I have never had a complaint from clients)
I have had GX680, Mamiya,Nikon Digital and still have the Haselblad/Flexbody system.
These pics were taken with the D2X but the Canon 5d is far better for sharpness and the Mk III even better.I'm also wondering though how much better a Flexbody/Aptus 65 setup would be?

I would choose the Mark III/TS90 system over any other option if you're shooting location.For me the ultimate lenses for food are Zeiss  but there is no easy TS Zeiss option for 35mm.
Whats it like shooting food with the Aptus 65 ? (other than the lack of movements)And are you generally happy with the Aptus 65?

Regards
Dirk

[geesbert]

here's another happy food shooter with a 1dsmk3 and the 90tse. great combo, especially when tethered to a big screen with live view....

if the 90 tse is not good enough for you maybe you want to give the new hartblei/zeiss lenses a try?

(http://hartblei.de/en/index.htm)

they do exist, i handled them at my dealer here in munich, but have no idea about their quality, but as the zeiss lenses are well kown and tried, there should be no problem.

another possibility is the mirex adapter with hasselblad or mamiya lenses

(http://www.mirex-adapter.de/)

i have the mamiya 120mm macro/mirex combo, but prefer the 90tse.

[PdF]

I'm using an Arca-Swiss F-Metric 6x9 with a Rotaslide sliding back and this is a great camera with full movements and reasonable size/weight. A P2 would be a monster to carry around. The Rotaslide can be fitted with a Mamiya plate.

Larry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=217329\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Very interesting !

What kind of shutter do you use with the Arca-Swiss ? Do you have a performant live-image ? Can all the system be managed by the computer ? Are they other plates than the Mamiya to have the rotation ? Is this rotation only on 90°, or all around (without limitations) ?

PdF

[Robin Balas]

here's another happy food shooter with a 1dsmk3 and the 90tse. great combo, especially when tethered to a big screen with live view....

if the 90 tse is not good enough for you maybe you want to give the new hartblei/zeiss lenses a try?

(http://hartblei.de/en/index.htm)

they do exist, i handled them at my dealer here in munich, but have no idea about their quality, but as the zeiss lenses are well kown and tried, there should be no problem.

another possibility is the mirex adapter with hasselblad or mamiya lenses

(http://www.mirex-adapter.de/)

i have the mamiya 120mm macro/mirex combo, but prefer the 90tse.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=217372\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The TS-E 90 is good enough for me, its my 1DsII (Mark2) which isn't up to the Aptus 65 Standard.
I own the 45mm Hartblei and it is mechanically very good but average optically and the 45mm is way too wide for my style of shooting. The other two Hartblei's is not for Medium format.
Getting a 1DsIII now is not going to happen, too much for too little at this point in time, as something will arrive relatively soon.
I could of course rent a 1DsIII for a few days every month. But I hate relaying on rented kit when there is so much at stake.

[dirkpieters]

The TS-E 90 is good enough for me, its my 1DsII (Mark2) which isn't up to the Aptus 65 Standard.
I own the 45mm Hartblei and it is mechanically very good but average optically and the 45mm is way too wide for my style of shooting. The other two Hartblei's is not for Medium format.
Getting a 1DsIII now is not going to happen, too much for too little at this point in time, as something will arrive relatively soon.
I could of course rent a 1DsIII for a few days every month. But I hate relaying on rented kit when there is so much at stake.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=217392\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi again Robin
Have you ever used a MK III to compare?
Regards
Dirk

[Robin Balas]

Hi Robin

At the moment I shoot for our 2 best food mags in South Africa with the MK III/ 90mm TS and I get great results.Its interesting that you posted this because I want to buy an Aptus 65 because I am looking for the Hasselblad lens tonality again (even though I have never had a complaint from clients)
I have had GX680, Mamiya,Nikon Digital and still have the Haselblad/Flexbody system.
These pics were taken with the D2X but the Canon 5d is far better for sharpness and the Mk III even better.I'm also wondering though how much better a Flexbody/Aptus 65 setup would be?

I would choose the Mark III/TS90 system over any other option if you're shooting location.For me the ultimate lenses for food are Zeiss  but there is no easy TS Zeiss option for 35mm.
Whats it like shooting food with the Aptus 65 ? (other than the lack of movements)And are you generally happy with the Aptus 65?

Regards
Dirk
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=217367\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You will be shocked by the increase in pixel sharpness as there is no OLPF in the medium format backs, but you are doing quite good with the 1DsIII and 90mm TS-E, so I wouldn't expect miracles. The MF files holds up way better than the Canon ones when you process them and have a smoother tonality into the whites. But it is angels on pin heads etc. when comparing so yes there is a definitive improvement but only that much. The 65 is dirt cheap right now so I would consider it a safe bet as you don't go broke on it. But for how long will the vultures allow you to upgrade from it to future products and still get a decent price reduction with it? Mechanically the Aptus is pretty straightforward, you need to treat it like a new girlfriend - no slapping and dropping it (or yelling as the software is Windoze CE style - at least it has a microsoft serial number sticker on the bottom). Mine is fixed to my camera with duct-tape as it isn't 100% rock solid seated in the AFdII mount as it is supposed to do (my college have a Aptus 22 which is like glued onto the AFd)
If you can keep your 1DsIII and get an Aptus 65 it might be a good solution, but only having an APTUS (of any kind) will frustrate you like crazy for the moments you need robustness and whether sealing and quick response. And forget about long exposures as 30sec looks specked if it its hot. And any longer than 32 sec makes the back crash or hick-up. For me that was a bad experience as I do some light painting with food and Champagne regularly for one of my clients. But I get it done in 15 sec. exposures and a heap of them and mashing them together in PS.
Would I buy the 65 today? No, I would get a 1DsIII and the few lenses I miss for the EOS range. But that is me with my needs for a quite robust dust and water proof camera for the industrial shoots I do for the local industry.
MHO.

[Robin Balas]

Hi again Robin
Have you ever used a MK III to compare?
Regards
Dirk
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=217395\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes I have and I do see significant difference in some shots and not so much in others, but using the 90 and 45 TS-E as I do you do see a difference and I feel I get a slightly more tolerant file out of the 1DsIII. Shadows doesn't crap up on you as fast.
I hope for an updated 1DsIIIn or whatever soon as I am getting crazy by the small LCD screen I have. The clients much prefer the huge LCD on the APTUS.
MHO.

EDIT:
Sorry, I misunderstood you - no I haven't compared the APTUS and 1DsIII side by side, only the 1DsII and the APTUS and quite a few timeas as I use both regularly. If I extrpolate my experience I think you would see a real improvement in pixel sharpness and still having a very strong tolerant file, not so much as I did with the mark II but still some.
But seriously consider other brands if long exposure times is something you rely on with the Canon. Phase have an offering with microlenses if you need that along with ISO 800, but no T/S.
MHO.

[dirkpieters]

Would I buy the 65 today? No, I would get a 1DsIII and the few lenses I miss for the EOS range. But that is me with my needs for a quite robust dust and water proof camera for the industrial shoots I do for the local industry.
MHO.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=217401\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks for the help.
I must just add that although I also found the Mark III better than the 5d, it was less impressive than expected but still worthwhile and perhaps when the new 5d (or 6d or whatever its going to be called) comes out, it might tempt you with its unbelievably low price and exceptionally high quality.
Regards
D

[Dan Gaye]

I couldn't afford a P3 setup so I got a Flexbody with a 120 Macro. I have a Sinar 54m with the LC shutter and they all work great together both in the studio or on location. The Flexbody has it's limitations but it may be what your looking for.

Dan