Shifting with a Digital Back

[retintin]

Hi, I am used to shoot with my Linhof 4x5" camera and I really enjoy the slowness and the precision of this mode of work. Now I bought a P45+. I use it with a Mamiya 645 AFDII system. Since I have made this investment I think about using the back also in the fields where I am used to work with the Linhof. So shortly: I need a system to shift with. I am going back and fourth with different solutions. Can someone explain me the main differences between the following systems:
1) A field camera like the Linhof M679 cs
2) A flat camera like the Alpa, the Cambo, the Horseman, etc ...
3) A Silvestri camera (appears to me like a mix between the first two)
One of my questions is, if controling the image (like I am used from the Linhof) is possible with a flat camera like the Cambo with a viewfinder? On the field camera I am used to control everything precisely on the screen before taking the picture. How should this be possible with an external viewfinder? How can you get a similar precision?
Are there any other advantages or disadvantages on one of those systems? Any recommondations. I don't want to spend tons of money any more.
Hasselblad is selling a shift/tilt adapter for all wide lenses now. Has anyone heard about Mamiya/Phase One coming out with a similar one? This would save a lot of money.
Thanks for any posts.
Peter

[eronald]

Phase/Mamiya is widely assumed to have a shift design based on the Hartblei mechanics come out. It remains to be seen what the optics there would be, particularly now that the bigger sensors make using a regular Zeiss/Hasselblad  lens pretty useless for long-axis shift.

http://www.hartblei.de/en/index.htm

Edmund

Hi, I am used to shoot with my Linhof 4x5" camera and I really enjoy the slowness and the precision of this mode of work. Now I bought a P45+. I use it with a Mamiya 645 AFDII system. Since I have made this investment I think about using the back also in the fields where I am used to work with the Linhof. So shortly: I need a system to shift with. I am going back and fourth with different solutions. Can someone explain me the main differences between the following systems:
1) A field camera like the Linhof M679 cs
2) A flat camera like the Alpa, the Cambo, the Horseman, etc ...
3) A Silvestri camera (appears to me like a mix between the first two)
One of my questions is, if controling the image (like I am used from the Linhof) is possible with a flat camera like the Cambo with a viewfinder? On the field camera I am used to control everything precisely on the screen before taking the picture. How should this be possible with an external viewfinder? How can you get a similar precision?
Are there any other advantages or disadvantages on one of those systems? Any recommondations. I don't want to spend tons of money any more.
Hasselblad is selling a shift/tilt adapter for all wide lenses now. Has anyone heard about Mamiya/Phase One coming out with a similar one? This would save a lot of money.
Thanks for any posts.
Peter
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=217177\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[tho_mas]

... [{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Some thoughts of someone who has checked some solutions but still is waiting for the order...

- Do you want just Shift or do you want Tilt/Swing, too?
Here's a good discussion about the implications of Tilt: [a href=\"http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=26843]http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=26843[/url]

- Lenses: according to the pixel pitch of the P45 you probably should use Schneider.
Resolution of the Rodenstock Sironar digital series is perfect up to 9 micron pixel pitch. I've seen some captures with the 35 Sironar digital and the P25 and they were really good.
But the resolution of the P45 is much higher. Though maybe some of the (longer) Sironar digital lenses will be fine for the P45, too.
But me I've checked the 35 Sironar digital with my P45 ... and my Contax lenses are by far superior. And with shift the edges were terribly washed out.
Resolution of the Rodenstock HR line is up to 5 microns but the HR lenses have smaller picture angles. No shift with the wide angle lenses!
Resolution of the Schneider is up to 6 microns so they should be fine for the P45.
I've checked the Schneider 47 digitar on a Linhof 679 and even with wide shift the images were sharp (enough).
From this point of view the Horseman is maybe not the way to go as the regular lens panels are made for the Rodenstocks (too, the SWD-II Pro is somehow flimsy).

- Do you want to stitch multiple images? From my point of view it's better if you do all the shift movements with the digiback while the lens is in fixed position.
Cambo Wide DS and Alpa can not shift the back in four directions (not quite sure about the Alpas but I think so); it's a combination of vertical shift of the lens and horizontal shift of the digiback. But for double capture stitching this is fine certainly.
The Horseman and the Cambo WRS100 can do back shift in four directions.

- You can not see the final image in the view finder. In the finder there are masks for the lens so that you can see the composition roughly. But of course the finder does not take notice of lens or back adjustments.
What about guestimate the shift and than just taking a capture and look on the display?
But e.g. the Cambo WRS has a ground glass independent of the camera mount. So you can work in a similar way you are used to.


I've decided to try the small Cambo WRS 1000 http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=26695 as I want to benefit from the four directions shift of the back and definitly don't want Tilt/Swing.
Too, I am looking for something really small and light.

Thomas

[retintin]

Thanks for your reply. I am not interested into stitching neither in swing/tilt. If Cambo also has a groundglass this could be interesting for my purposes. I think I have to try a camera with a viewfinder to see how this feels. Any experience with Silvestri? Is this serious? I had a Bicam in my hands this morning, and I wasn't sure about it.
Peter

[tho_mas]

If Cambo also has a groundglass this could be interesting for my purposes.[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

But just for the WRS: [a href=\"http://www.cambo.com/Html/products_photo/set01/english/internet/Group6818.html]http://www.cambo.com/Html/products_photo/s.../Group6818.html[/url]
The WDS has a gorundglass just for Hasselblad mount: http://www.cambo.com/Html/products_photo/s...t/Group502.html

Any experience with Silvestri?[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=217192\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

No, sorry.
Thomas

[lance_schad]

But just for the WRS: http://www.cambo.com/Html/products_photo/s.../Group6818.html
The WDS has a gorundglass just for Hasselblad mount: http://www.cambo.com/Html/products_photo/s...t/Group502.html

 No, sorry.
Thomas
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

On any of the solutions you can get a V-mount and use the ground adapter from the SWC. These are still around on the used market.
It is relatively inexpensive on the Horseeman since the digital back mounting plate is the PhaseOne FlexAdapter plate and retail for about $350 new.
I have many clients even though they use an H or 645M mount back do this with the Horesman.
Here is a picture of the adapter.
L[attachment=8070:attachment]
Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
Direct: 305-534-5701 x1 | Cell: 305-394-3196
[a href=\"http://www.captureintegration.com]Capture Integration [/url]

[SeanBK]

Recently I played around with Horseman, Rodenstock & V96 series back from Hasselblad. The results were nothing short of real impressive..WOW!!

[thsinar]

hi Thomas,

I just wish to jump in here and give my information and experience with the Rodenstock Digital HR lenses, which is in opposition to yours.

The HR lenses are incredibly sharp throughout the edge of the image circle, and this with full open aperture. The equivalent Schneider lenses are sharp as well BUT have to be stopped down by 2 stops.

Concerning image circles, e.g. the Rodenstock 28mm HR has a 70mm circle which allows 12 to 13mm shift at f4, without significant loss of sharpness at the edge, although the specifications give less (specifications given for 60lp/mm).
This makes it a lens which has no particular problem to be used with any current sensor and can still be used with real 645 sensors, giving still shift possibilities of 3/4mm.

The same applies for all the other Rodenstock HR lenses.

The same experience has been published here many times by rainer-v, an architecture photographer using these lenses daily.

Best regards,
Thierry

Resolution of the Rodenstock HR line is up to 5 microns but the HR lenses have smaller picture angles. No shift with the wide angle lenses!
Resolution of the Schneider is up to 6 microns so they should be fine for the P45.

Thomas
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=217189\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[Martin Kristiansen]

I would like to ad support and encouragement for anyone sticking a MFDB on a view camera. I am using a Leaf Aptus 7 on a Cambo and it is a wonderful way to work. Not pushing one system over another. I think they will all pretty much do the job and the results will be excellent.  The working methodology with view cameras and digital back is a delight.

[tho_mas]

Hi Thierry,

I just wish to jump in here and give my information and experience with the Rodenstock Digital HR lenses, which is in opposition to yours. The HR lenses are incredibly sharp throughout the edge of the image circle, and this with full open aperture.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=217242\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That might be right, I do not doubt about that - the HR lenses must be really great. As to IQ (sharpness) I referred to the Apo Sironar digital line, therefor to the non-HR lenses.
The non-HR Sironar digital 35mm was... disappointing poor compared to my Contax Distagon 35 (even after correction of the Distagons distortion) on my P45.

Concerning image circles, e.g. the Rodenstock 28mm HR has a 70mm circle which allows 12 to 13mm shift at f4[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=217242\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks for clarifying this!
I want to stitch a least 2 images with the back turned vertical. Too, of what I have figured out even for single shots I need about 15mm or 17mm shift frequently. So they do not fit my needs with regard to the image circle and and this is why anytime I just stopped thinking about the HR lenses; didn't have in mind that there is still a shifting array of 12mm.

[thsinar]

Hi Thierry,
 That might be right, I do not doubt about that - the HR lenses must be really great. As to IQ (sharpness) I referred to the Apo Sironar digital line, therefor to the non-HR lenses.
The non-HR Sironar digital 35mm was... disappointing poor compared to my Contax Distagon 35 (even after correction of the Distagons distortion) on my P45.
 Thanks for clarifying this!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=217254\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Alright, I misunderstood, my apologies.

I want to stitch a least 2 images with the back turned vertical. Too, of what I have figured out even for single shots I need about 15mm or 17mm shift frequently. So they do not fit my needs with regard to the image circle and and this is why anytime I just stopped thinking about the HR lenses; didn't have in mind that there is still a shifting array of 12mm.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=217254\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, 12 to 13mm shift, and this at f4, full open, which means even more when stopped down.

Best regards,
Thierry

[dirkpieters]

Does Anyone use a (V) Flexbody with an Aptus 65/75
Dirk

[free1000]

Cambo Wide DS and Alpa can not shift the back in four directions (not quite sure about the Alpas but I think so); it's a combination of vertical shift of the lens and horizontal shift of the digiback.
Thomas
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=217189\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Sorry you are wrong about the Cambo Wide DS.  You can shift left/right,  plus rise/fall with this camera.

Quad stitching is therefore possible and indeed I have done it.

Unless you meant something different?

[Kumar]

Sorry you are wrong about the Cambo Wide DS.  You can shift left/right,  plus rise/fall with this camera.

Quad stitching is therefore possible and indeed I have done it.

Unless you meant something different?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=217742\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think Thomas meant that on the Cambo WideDS the back shifts left/right and the lens shifts up/down, leading to an occasional parallax problem if objects are close to the lens. The new Cambo RS has all shifts on the back, like the Horseman and the Alpa XY and Max.

Cheers,
Kumar

[tho_mas]

I think Thomas meant that on the Cambo WideDS the back shifts left/right and the lens shifts up/down, leading to an occasional parallax problem if objects are close to the lens. [{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Exactly.
[attachment=8109:attachment]

The new Cambo RS has all shifts on the back, like the Horseman and the Alpa XY and Max.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=217745\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Are you sure about the Alpa Max?
Shifting options look to me the same as the Cambo WDS:
[a href=\"http://www.alpa.ch/image.php?file=images/products/267/000/ALPA12MAX_DSC_0345.JPG&width=550&height=550&scale=aspect_ratio&output=thumb]Front[/url]
Back
Back 2
Or do they have different back inserts?

[Kumar]

Exactly.
[attachment=8109:attachment]

 Are you sure about the Alpa Max?
Shifting options look to me the same as the Cambo WDS:
Front
Back
Back 2
Or do they have different back inserts?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[a href=\"http://www.alpa.ch/index.php?path=products/cameras&detailpage=267]http://www.alpa.ch/index.php?path=products...&detailpage=267[/url]

"Shifting with fixed lens position is possible - only the back moves within the lens’ image circle. This is the basis for any high-end stitching."

Cheers,
Kumar

[tho_mas]

http://www.alpa.ch/index.php?path=products...&detailpage=267
"Shifting with fixed lens position is possible - only the back moves within the lens’ image circle. This is the basis for any high-end stitching."[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=217753\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thank you!
But... I'm still wondering how the back can be shifted up and down with this back panel?
"Shifting with fixed lens position is possible" - maybe they just refer to lateral shift?

[eronald]

Thank you!
But... I'm still wondering how the back can be shifted up and down with this back panel?
"Shifting with fixed lens position is possible" - maybe they just refer to lateral shift?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=217757\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The trick with the Alpa XY is that the back mount is suspended on xy screw threads inside a frame; the lensboard is attached to the external frame, if I remember rightly. I expect the Max has similar trickery.

[tho_mas]

The trick with the Alpa XY is that the back mount is suspended on xy screw threads inside a frame; the lensboard is attached to the external frame, if I remember rightly. I expect the Max has similar trickery.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=217760\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Possibly could be the answer. Makes sense :-)
But if so... there is no scale that shows the ammount of the shift. So you would have to guess the millimeters... and therefor you would have to capture the lens cast calibration pane for each shot... Hmh, does not sum up 100% to me.
But maybe one of the Alpa owners can clarify this.
Thomas

[free1000]

Exactly.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=217750\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Fair enough. I would add though that these parallax differences are fairly small in practice if you use CS3 automated stitching. Though I often have to make a few manual mask edits following the merge. I would expect this would still be the case with all the movements on the back... I'd be interested to try sometime with the Cambo RS and see how much of a practical difference there is.

Sometimes the edits reflect minor parallax error, sometimes they reflect taste and changing lighting.