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mike_botelho

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OBAs and Canvas
« on: August 11, 2008, 07:35:43 pm »

A recent post of mine instigated a very interesting thread about OBAs.  Since then, I've been looking into glossy canvas.  I figured I'd post my experience and findings.  Perhaps someone will find it helpful, and perhaps it will instigate a little more productive discussion.

I had previously tried Breathing Color Glossy Chromata Canvas.  As I mentioned in these forums once, I had a problem with flaking (which was confirmed by others who had used this canvas).  Breathing Color no longer even lists the product on their website, and I was told, in a previous thread, that it was being re-formulated and would re-appear.  But it hasn't re-appeared, and I'm moving on.

Anyway, after the interesting thread about OBAs, I figured I'd investigate a little in regard to the glossy canvasses I was interested in.  I had narrowed my interest down to IJ Technologies Black Diamond Gloss Canvas, Lexjet Sunset Select Gloss Canvas, BF Inkjet's TruPalette Grand Photographer Gloss Canvas, and the newest of the bunch, the Innova Photo Canvas Ultra Gloss.  Here's what I found out regarding OBAs:

Innova Photo Canvas Ultra Gloss:  I contacted Wayne Connelly at Innova's US division, and he replied immediately.  He informed me that the Ultra Gloss hasn't been launched yet in the US, but he also immediately offered to send me samples, which was great.  As for OBAs, there are some brighteners in the gesso layer, but none in the inkjet receptive layer.  He claims a far greater stability vs OBA use in the top layer.

Lexjet Sunset Select Gloss Canvas:  I talked to Dustin Flowers at Lexjet, he was quite responsive and, ultimately, very helpful.  Unlike IJ Technologies and BF Inkjet that sell sample rolls, and unlike Innova, where I was immediately sent some samples, here I was told that LexJet didn't believe in sample rolls and that they would instead require me to buy a full roll, and then would refund my money if I wasn't satisfied.  After telling them, however, that this didn't suit me since I was sampling various canvases and didn't care to buy a full roll to test a swatch or two, I was offered a bit of canvas that was around the office, Which later became a full 17" roll.  So, great result after a bit of work.

As for OBAs, I was given a decent explanation of how OBA are only used in the gesso layer, and only to the extent that they are needed to make the whiteness level of the product consistent from batch to batch.  I was also told that they achieved a 6 on the blue wool scale, despite the small amount of OBAs.  I have to admit, though, that, at first, the product was described as OBA-free, and that I received the above explanation only when I specifically inquired about the gesso layer.  

IJ Technologies Black Diamond Gloss Canvas:  I talked with Keith Walker at IJ Technologies.  He was quite helpful, and, when I inquired about their claim of no OBAs and asked specifically about the gesso layer and the inkjet-receptive layer, he informed me that the Black Diamond canvas has no OBAs in either layer.  Good news for those seeking a totally OBA free-option, it seems.

BF Inkjet's TruPalette Grand Photographer Gloss Canvas:  I have to admit, getting a response from this company isn't easy.  This was, I believe, the third e-mail I sent them in a few months, and it was the only one of those three e-mails that I got a response to, a very brief sentence that said the coating on their product does contain OBAs.  I received no more detail than that, and, given how long it took for me to get an answer, I'm, personally, not going to inquire further. (I also contacted them once about samples, got a brief reply saying they could supply samples for a fee, and then never received ordering information after I asked for it.  So my not persuing this product doesn't reflect on the product itself, just my lack of wanting to bother any further with their customer support.)

So, evidently, OBAs are present in canvas products, at least to some degree, more than I anticipated.  I'm not exactly sure why this is so.  Jim Doyle, in my previous thread about OBAs, mentioned that paper mills are now experimenting with producing papers with white pigment in them.  This would seem to be a more difficult process, since the pigment would have to be incorporated into the paper itself.  But, with canvas, where there is a gesso layer between the canvas itself and the inkjet receptive coating, I don't see why anyone even bother to opt for the problems connected with OBAs.  Since the main ingredients of gesso are titanium dioxide and filler (that is essentially plaster), I don't see where OBAs would really be needed to either obtain certain whiteness levels or maintain consistency between batches.  Could it be used to allow a cheaper formulation with less titanium dioxide?  (Considering the outrageous cost of inkjet canvas vs the cost of similar canvas without an inket receptive layer, I have no sympathy with this motive.  If you're going to charge three, four, or five times the amount of money for a roll of poly/cotton or cotton canvas simply because it has an additional coating on it, I wouldn't expect frugality.)  Or could it be due to the fact that these companies are simply applying their paper-producing methods to canvas, without considering that canvas is a different animal that has traditionally obtained high levels of whiteness with pigment based gessos with no OBAs?  I'd be interested in speculation, information on this.

Anyway, the moral is that I, and others, obviously can't make assumptions about OBAs in inkjet canvas.  Obviously, also, this does not suggest one way or the other how much OBA are present in certain products and how much the substrate's characteristics would change over time.  Still, if my inquiries prove anything, it's that canvas is indeed a special animal, and that canvas described as OBA-free can still contain OBAs in the gesso layer.  Certainly, this would seem to be less critical than large amount of brighteners in the inkjet receptive layer, but, to me, it's pertinent anyway, and I will from now on always inquire about both the gesso layer and injket layer in regard to canvas.

It'd be interesting to see blacklight photos (such as those done with papers in the other OBA thread) of canvases with no OBAs at all, those with OBAs only in the gesso, and those with OBAs in the inkjet receptive layer.  Particularly, it'd be interesting to see the differing effects of OBAs in the gesso layer and OBAs in the top layer, to see if the gesso-layer OBAs really provide a minimal effect or not.  (If, by the way, anyone would like to perform such a test, I will, as mentioned, be obtaining free samples of both the LexJet and Innova canvases, and will be purchasing a sample roll of the IJ Technologies canvas.  I'd be happy to send someone a piece of all three if they'd like to do this and post the results here.)

Anyway, the above has just been some info and experiences, and not a heap of scientific test results... but, as this is an area that a number of people, like me, are exploring, I figured I'd offer this little bit in case it might help someone.  I don't think I've seen a discussion of OBAs in canvas, so, if this opens up the topic for consideration a bit, that'd be great.

Kind Regards,

Mike
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Ernst Dinkla

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OBAs and Canvas
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2008, 04:48:28 am »

Quote
So, evidently, OBAs are present in canvas products, at least to some degree, more than I anticipated.  I'm not exactly sure why this is so.  Jim Doyle, in my previous thread about OBAs, mentioned that paper mills are now experimenting with producing papers with white pigment in them.  This would seem to be a more difficult process, since the pigment would have to be incorporated into the paper itself.  But, with canvas, where there is a gesso layer between the canvas itself and the inkjet receptive coating, I don't see why anyone even bother to opt for the problems connected with OBAs.  Since the main ingredients of gesso are titanium dioxide and filler (that is essentially plaster), I don't see where OBAs would really be needed to either obtain certain whiteness levels or maintain consistency between batches.  Could it be used to allow a cheaper formulation with less titanium dioxide?  (Considering the outrageous cost of inkjet canvas vs the cost of similar canvas without an inket receptive layer, I have no sympathy with this motive.  If you're going to charge three, four, or five times the amount of money for a roll of poly/cotton or cotton canvas simply because it has an additional coating on it, I wouldn't expect frugality.)  Or could it be due to the fact that these companies are simply applying their paper-producing methods to canvas, without considering that canvas is a different animal that has traditionally obtained high levels of whiteness with pigment based gessos with no OBAs?  I'd be interested in speculation, information on this.


Kind Regards,

Mike
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Some additions of what I have heard and experienced.
Paper, canvas and coatings will be much more complex products than how I describe them here but I would be on thin ice if I attempted to give a better description. If one just checks what is available in paper chemicals (and patents on them) you get an idea of the complexity.

About two years we talked with some canvas distributors on the Photokina. Their common complaint then was that it was so hard to get enough good canvas from India. I don't think the shortage has been ended yet. As a manufacturer there's always the problem that you like to have enough supply of consistent quality but preferably from more suppliers to have some control on price and to be less dependent on one source. Shortage increases the manufacturer's problems.

The Hahnemuhle canvas varieties have either two or three coatings. It makes a difference in drying. The actual inkjet coating at the top in the best quality has a lot of similarity with the coating on their best papers. At least the profiles come so close that I (and others) have used art paper profiles for that canvas on occasions.

Paper substrate could have no coating at all before it is coated for inkjet printing. The Hahnemühle art papers get 3 layers of coatings in the process. I have been told that while they are still using T-shirt waste etc along with cotton manufacturing waste the variation of OBA in the rag pulp exists and a certain level of OBA is needed to get consistency in paper color.

There's a lot of paper around for other printing processes that have a kaolin coating + TiO2 + OBA content in varying quantities. Most white offset paper is like that. All three ingredients can be considered as whiteners though the kaolin has other purposes too (smooothing the top layer, absorption, reduce bleeding, etc). The kaolin and the TiO2 are described as pigments in other cases, the OBAs are dyes. It wouldn't surprise me if similar coatings are used on inkjet papers + an additional inkjet ink receptor. Even bulk offset stock with an added inkjet layer is possible. So when there's talk about adding pigment to paper it doesn't have to be in the pulp mass but just as one of the coatings like it is done for many years.

There's a difference in sizing of papers and something of that can be observed when you print uncoated (art) papers on an inkjet printer. The image quality will never be high but there's some variation in quality between papers. Like there's variation between the inkjet ink types used on the papers. The plain Bockingford Tub sized Aquarel paper printed quite good with Generations pigment ink (sample of 2003 in my archive). In that period an inkjet quality of Bockingford Aquarel was distributed with the claim that inkjet ink recption was improved by adding chemicals to the pulp and no other coating was added. There is a review of that paper on the net somewhere. I always wondered how much different that paper was to the plain stock.

Canvas filler will have more polymer ingredients like PVA to create a better bond and flexibility on the weaving I guess. I had some further experience with plaster(ers) in my house this summer :-)


Ernst Dinkla

Try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 04:50:12 am by Ernst Dinkla »
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mike_botelho

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OBAs and Canvas
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2008, 01:21:06 pm »

Quote
Some additions of what I have heard and experienced.
Paper, canvas and coatings will be much more complex products than how I describe them here but I would be on thin ice if I attempted to give a better description. If one just checks what is available in paper chemicals (and patents on them) you get an idea of the complexity.

About two years we talked with some canvas distributors on the Photokina. Their common complaint then was that it was so hard to get enough good canvas from India. I don't think the shortage has been ended yet. As a manufacturer there's always the problem that you like to have enough supply of consistent quality but preferably from more suppliers to have some control on price and to be less dependent on one source. Shortage increases the manufacturer's problems.

The Hahnemuhle canvas varieties have either two or three coatings. It makes a difference in drying. The actual inkjet coating at the top in the best quality has a lot of similarity with the coating on their best papers. At least the profiles come so close that I (and others) have used art paper profiles for that canvas on occasions.

Paper substrate could have no coating at all before it is coated for inkjet printing. The Hahnemühle art papers get 3 layers of coatings in the process. I have been told that while they are still using T-shirt waste etc along with cotton manufacturing waste the variation of OBA in the rag pulp exists and a certain level of OBA is needed to get consistency in paper color.

There's a lot of paper around for other printing processes that have a kaolin coating + TiO2 + OBA content in varying quantities. Most white offset paper is like that. All three ingredients can be considered as whiteners though the kaolin has other purposes too (smooothing the top layer, absorption, reduce bleeding, etc). The kaolin and the TiO2 are described as pigments in other cases, the OBAs are dyes. It wouldn't surprise me if similar coatings are used on inkjet papers + an additional inkjet ink receptor. Even bulk offset stock with an added inkjet layer is possible. So when there's talk about adding pigment to paper it doesn't have to be in the pulp mass but just as one of the coatings like it is done for many years.

There's a difference in sizing of papers and something of that can be observed when you print uncoated (art) papers on an inkjet printer. The image quality will never be high but there's some variation in quality between papers. Like there's variation between the inkjet ink types used on the papers. The plain Bockingford Tub sized Aquarel paper printed quite good with Generations pigment ink (sample of 2003 in my archive). In that period an inkjet quality of Bockingford Aquarel was distributed with the claim that inkjet ink recption was improved by adding chemicals to the pulp and no other coating was added. There is a review of that paper on the net somewhere. I always wondered how much different that paper was to the plain stock.

Canvas filler will have more polymer ingredients like PVA to create a better bond and flexibility on the weaving I guess. I had some further experience with plaster(ers) in my house this summer :-)
Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214568\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks for the added info, Ernst.

Just to clarify my 'plaster' comment... I wasn't commenting on the vehicle, just the particulate base, if you would.  Traditional gesso is TiO2 and CaSO4.2H20 (calcium sulfate dihydrate, which is essentially plaster), plus natural glues, sugar, water.  Acrylic gesso is the same, with a polymer vehicle.  I was assuming that gesso that is placed between canvas and an injet-receptive layer (or layers), would be TiO2 and CaSO4.2H20 as well, with polymer ingredients as you mentioned, perhaps altered from a usual acrylic formulation.  I was commenting on the substances making the gesso white, as opposed to the vehicle these things were added to.  I wasn't assuming that it was TiO2 and an aquious plaster solution like they used in your house. :-)  I suppose I wasn't too clear on that.

Kind Regards,

Mike
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