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Author Topic: Leica's new MF system  (Read 331901 times)

Nemo

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Leica's new MF system
« Reply #380 on: September 24, 2008, 10:20:36 am »

These lenses are NOT typical MF lenses. Mamiya and Fuji/Hasselblad are good, no question, but... this is Leica.
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Nemo

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« Reply #381 on: September 24, 2008, 10:23:59 am »

645 Full Frame cameras are much more expensive than the S2.

Hasselblad tried to establish a new (smaller) format based on 36x48 (the 28mm D lens is an example), but finally they were pushed towards the 645 FF model by Phase One/Mamiya. Now they offer "cropped" backs, and future FF backs will be even more expensive. The psychological perception of a "cropped" camera by many customers has some negative bias. Wrong decision?

Due to the same reasons, the 6x6 format of Rollei/Sinar/Leaf will force them to offer a 6x6 FF... In other case you will be "wasting" those 6x6 lenses. Gorgeous and huge format... but very expensive!

Mike Johnston's comments on digital formats are very interesting:

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/t...innovation.html

.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2008, 10:38:34 am by Nemo »
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rainer_v

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« Reply #382 on: September 24, 2008, 10:34:57 am »

Quote
warning! rant coming..

first off I am sick of this association with leica and dentists.. but since it has been brought up..
lets look at dentists.. you know why they can afford a nice new photo toy?  well I just took 2 of my kids the other day to a dentist.. and my rough cowboy math says they are billing 5+ grand a day at this office..and they are booked up, I was "lucky" to get them in on a SAT...well you do the math.
I don't think there is a forum for them where they bitch and moan about not being able to buy that new camera to shoot pictures of teeth and you know that has to make a new leica system look like a bargain..you think they are going to eat the expense of upgrading?..Yeah, lets talk dentists..lets work smart like dentists.  As a 20+ year member of APA I encourage you all to join this or asmp and work " smart".
This new camera looks to be the creme de la creme of small cameras.. should every tom, dick and harry shooter afford it.. no.  So, look in the mirror and ask yourself are you in that top percentage of guys/gals who should even be thinking about this camera..because Leica does not need most of our business for it to succeed, just the best of us and if this forum is a cross section (debatable) then that counts most of us out..So work on your game plan to get a little closer to the folks who bill out 10-100 grand a day(they are out there) and then see if you feel the same about this new camera.
For those of you talented enough and with the business smarts to get those rates and you want to shoot with the canon markwhatever or 5dwhatever great, if it works in your game, perfect, you can use whatever you want, the world is your oyster.  But for the rest of us-- don't let envy cloud your assessment of a camera you haven't seen the final specs on or handled!! and if you do want this camera, then find a way to make it pay for itself.. bill everyday for equipment.. even on little no budget jobs for a friend.. put a line item in for 25 bucks.. something to say hey this is part of my expenses..
and I bill for my expenses. 
The camera is our most import tool we have as photographers to define us visually in the marketplace.. make it an asset not a liability.  and hey, don't even start with "oh my clients won't put up with me charging for that" or " new world economy".." my clients don't care what I shoot with and how many megapixels it has".  About 5 years ago I tried repeating to myself " oh my clients don't care about whether I shoot film or digital" ..that didn't last long. We have to complete with others, and we have to put out the best we are capable of if you don't you are out of business.
There is always room at the top, this new leica S2 will prove that.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223926\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

in which aspect it will be top in your opinion?
i cant see it, but i`ll wait till i see some images or till the camera will meet the stores.

even in the good ol times when i felt enough talented to use leicas i never could understand the hyteric fits of their users about their uncomparable qualities.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2008, 10:39:28 am by rainer_v »
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rainer viertlböck
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mcfoto

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Leica's new MF system
« Reply #383 on: September 24, 2008, 10:42:48 am »

Quote
In the Farkas Blog I found an interesting comment about the new S lenses:
http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223933\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Quote
(The S2 boasts the ability to simultaneously shoot DNG+JPG in camera, and produce exceptional quality JPGs to boot. Most MFD systems aren’t able to generate decent JPGs in real time. This feature and the ability to shoot 1.5 fps start to separate the S2 from the MFD pack.)

Hi
Is 1.5 fps the shooting speed of the S2?

Denis
« Last Edit: September 24, 2008, 10:44:47 am by mcfoto »
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Denis Montalbetti
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paulmoorestudio

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« Reply #384 on: September 24, 2008, 10:48:02 am »

Quote
Quote
(The S2 boasts the ability to simultaneously shoot DNG+JPG in camera, and produce exceptional quality JPGs to boot. Most MFD systems aren’t able to generate decent JPGs in real time. This feature and the ability to shoot 1.5 fps start to separate the S2 from the MFD pack.)

Hi
Is 1.5 fps the shooting speed of the S2?

Denis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223949\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

as of today they are saying 1.5fps.. but they were quick to ad that it is still a prototype and some things are not fixed yet..I think they would love it to be 2+fps as a lot of shooters would as well.
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tho_mas

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Leica's new MF system
« Reply #385 on: September 24, 2008, 11:00:12 am »

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i really think that they have built this around the concept of ultimate image quality in a hand holdable, non studio camera.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223883\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Saw the mock-up today. The Contax645 (or Mamiya/Phase) is a lean camera compared to the S-Leica. With a 80mm lens and a Phase back the Contax is even as deep as the S-Leica with one of the two mock-up lenses shown at Photokina (one of it a 70mm if I remember correctly - huge!). So existing MF cameras are as hand holdable as the Leica (as far as the dimensions of the mock up really tell something).
At Phase One someone said that there will be 5 Leica lenses for the Phase One camera in about half a year (for the Phase One, not for the Leica; if it's already mentioned somewhere in this thread... sorry for double post).
As to the prices... maybe offtopic... but just read the new prices of Hasselblad:
Hasselblad H3DII-50 - € 17.995,-
Hasselblad H3DII-39 Multishot - € 19.995,-
Hasselblad H3DII-39 + HC80 - € 14.995,-
Hasselblad H3DII-31 + HC80 - € 11.995,-
So Phase One seems to be alone at (and over) the top with regard to prices.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2008, 11:01:02 am by tho_mas »
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gwhitf

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Leica's new MF system
« Reply #386 on: September 24, 2008, 11:08:41 am »

Today, to all my clients, I am announcing a new style of photography for my portfolio. I haven't really perfected it, and I don't have it in my portfolio that I could Fedex to them today, but I have an idea of how I might actually perfect it. I will run ads in Archive and Communication Arts, announcing my idea for my new style that one day I might actually be able to show in my portfolio. Maybe by the end of 2009 or so, I might actually have shot one frame and have one print in my book with this new style. But it is vitally important that I announce it now, even though I have nothing concrete to show.

This announcement will make my clients feel certain about my ideas, even though I haven't really produced anything yet. But the most important thing is that I'm talking about my new style, even though I'm not really doing it.

This action today will make clients think good things about me, and my work style.

I can't really take jobs based on this style; maybe by Fall 2009. But the main thing is -- they are talking about me.

My marketing people tell me this is a solid approach to business, and to generating customer loyalty.

This is the Leica way, thus, it must be good.
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paulmoorestudio

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« Reply #387 on: September 24, 2008, 11:10:41 am »

Quote
in which aspect it will be top in your opinion?
i cant see it, but i`ll wait till i see some images or till the camera will meet the stores.

even in the good ol times when i felt enough talented to use leicas i never could understand the hyteric fits of their users about their uncomparable qualities.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223948\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

boy I thought still-life photographers were staid...

Look, I have not handled the camera so I am only a looker like the rest of us.. I have used their r9/dmr for the past 3 years and have found the camera the best 35mm camera I have ever shot with.. but I never said or would say it is "uncomparable" nor would I describe myself as "hysterical", as you are implying in your statement.  
I hope you have found in your career some equipment you have been really happy with, bonded with, tools which used day in and day out mold to you like a custom made leather shoe.. call me weird but I have an affinity with some of my cameras.. I still have a technika that I can't part with because it was part of my style at one time..more than just an optical devise to capture light.. it helped define me as a creative photographer and was an intregal part of the experience of photographing, something which is often lost in the day to day life of a commercial photographer shooting the same old box on white seamless or the same old box on the street corner.  As silly as it seems, a new camera or process can shake you out of that bland rut and reignite the passion, .. passion not hysteria.  even still-lifers can have it.
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nik

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« Reply #388 on: September 24, 2008, 02:44:12 pm »

Does anyone know if it uses an AA filter?
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Sean Reginald Knight

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« Reply #389 on: September 24, 2008, 02:52:45 pm »

Quote
Today, to all my clients, I am announcing a new style of photography for my portfolio. I haven't really perfected it, and I don't have it in my portfolio that I could Fedex to them today, but I have an idea of how I might actually perfect it. I will run ads in Archive and Communication Arts, announcing my idea for my new style that one day I might actually be able to show in my portfolio. Maybe by the end of 2009 or so, I might actually have shot one frame and have one print in my book with this new style. But it is vitally important that I announce it now, even though I have nothing concrete to show.

This announcement will make my clients feel certain about my ideas, even though I haven't really produced anything yet. But the most important thing is that I'm talking about my new style, even though I'm not really doing it.

This action today will make clients think good things about me, and my work style.

I can't really take jobs based on this style; maybe by Fall 2009. But the main thing is -- they are talking about me.

My marketing people tell me this is a solid approach to business, and to generating customer loyalty.

This is the Leica way, thus, it must be good.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223955\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The Don King School of Marketing.
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narikin

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Leica's new MF system
« Reply #390 on: September 24, 2008, 04:52:42 pm »

Quote
then i remembered all that filter/magenta mess with the M camera, and I just bet, (as with version 1.0 of anything), there will be problems with the S Leica.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223903\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
undoubtedly some teething problems, but with Phase behind it, there wont be the same mess as there was with the M8. I expect that (digital) bit to be very good.

Quote
to be honest, NONE of these cameras is very exciting to me. none of them. the canon works, but it's still got that 35 vibe to it. the H1 had that mirror slap; the Contax ate batteries and had a tiny dark viewfinder. i still want a camera that feels like a Mamiya 7 in my hands, but has a four inch LCD, and has a 645 frame proportion. (once I realized the Leica was still that awful 35 frame shape, that was the final dagger).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223903\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
agreed Mamiya 7 amazing - we need the ZD2 badly with Phase input
agreed 35mm shape is an error on Leica part - its not a press camera - they made the mistake of keeping a 'traditional' format when they were claiming to be 'new'

also single point AF - a big disappointment- Leica just don't have the expertise to handle multi point AF and compete with the Japanese producers
« Last Edit: September 24, 2008, 04:59:03 pm by narikin »
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Snook

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Leica's new MF system
« Reply #391 on: September 24, 2008, 05:17:21 pm »

Quote
undoubtedly some teething problems, but with Phase behind it, there wont be the same mess as there was with the M8. I expect that (digital) bit to be very good.
agreed Mamiya 7 amazing - we need the ZD2 badly with Phase input
agreed 35mm shape is an error on Leica part - its not a press camera - they made the mistake of keeping a 'traditional' format when they were claiming to be 'new'

also single point AF - a big disappointment- Leica just don't have the expertise to handle multi point AF and compete with the Japanese producers
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224079\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Those so called Dentist better be buying a lot of HD's to back up all those pretty shot's of teeth..:+]
Snook
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Conner999

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« Reply #392 on: September 24, 2008, 05:40:10 pm »

Before anyone gets to excited about the Phase relationship:

Checkout the Leica interview on Calumet's website:

http://www.calumetphoto.co.uk/photokina?t=CM02&a=CM02

Well known Leica dealer David Farkas (Dale Photo) has an interesting blog from Photokina folks may want check out re: the deal and a hands-on with the S2 (looks sweet).

BUT, there is a LOT (and I mean a LOT) of apparent confusion and miscommunication surfacing between Leica's version of what is happening, Phase's version and each firm's communications to their respective dealer re: relationship:

- Phase indicates Phase tech inside, yet multiple Leica Execs openly state to various interviewers, dealers that it's 100% Leica, Phase relationship started after S2 fully developed and depth of relationship is still very nebulous.

- Phase understands exclusive sales channel, yet Leica (non-Phase) dealers advertising the S2 and taking pre-orders.

- It goes on...

There are also some threads on www.getdpi.com that also discuss/debate/express frustration over the issue.

I'd put a question mark beside the depth of the Phase involvement/support until better and more coherent information from both parties emerges.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2008, 05:51:20 pm by Conner999 »
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rainer_v

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« Reply #393 on: September 24, 2008, 06:51:25 pm »

Quote
boy I thought still-life photographers were staid...

Look, I have not handled the camera so I am only a looker like the rest of us.. I have used their r9/dmr for the past 3 years and have found the camera the best 35mm camera I have ever shot with.. but I never said or would say it is "uncomparable" nor would I describe myself as "hysterical", as you are implying in your statement. 
I hope you have found in your career some equipment you have been really happy with, bonded with, tools which used day in and day out mold to you like a custom made leather shoe.. call me weird but I have an affinity with some of my cameras.. I still have a technika that I can't part with because it was part of my style at one time..more than just an optical devise to capture light.. it helped define me as a creative photographer and was an intregal part of the experience of photographing, something which is often lost in the day to day life of a commercial photographer shooting the same old box on white seamless or the same old box on the street corner.  As silly as it seems, a new camera or process can shake you out of that bland rut and reignite the passion, .. passion not hysteria.  even still-lifers can have it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223956\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
paul i was not referring my leica critic  to you. sorry if i was implying this,- i even wasnt conscient that you shoot with a R9.
i used in my film days several leicas too, aside my linhof 4x5 and 6x17 cameras,- and i liked them a lot especially cause i liked their "feel".  but there was some attitude in certain leica forums which was so elitist that i couldnt stand it.
btw.: similar than several months ago the one or other mf contra 35mm treat, there was some talk that a "real" professional or even a real quality demanding photographer needs to use mf tools for it, as if there wouldnt enough great photos shot with 35mm cameras, if thge photographer i a great one. ( beside the funny  35mm users who needed to convince themselves in 1000 posts  that there is no need to use mf gear ). i hated all this  attitudes and allways thought they are wrong, arrogant and stupid.
( pls. note that  i am not referring to you or even to any of the active posters which are here in LL/ Mf at the moment - seems so that most of these guys already have found other places to enjoy.)
« Last Edit: September 24, 2008, 07:21:24 pm by rainer_v »
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rainer viertlböck
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paulmoorestudio

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Leica's new MF system
« Reply #394 on: September 24, 2008, 09:53:51 pm »

Quote
paul i was not referring my leica critic  to you. sorry if i was implying this,- i even wasnt conscient that you shoot with a R9.
i used in my film days several leicas too, aside my linhof 4x5 and 6x17 cameras,- and i liked them a lot especially cause i liked their "feel".  but there was some attitude in certain leica forums which was so elitist that i couldnt stand it.
btw.: similar than several months ago the one or other mf contra 35mm treat, there was some talk that a "real" professional or even a real quality demanding photographer needs to use mf tools for it, as if there wouldnt enough great photos shot with 35mm cameras, if thge photographer i a great one. ( beside the funny  35mm users who needed to convince themselves in 1000 posts  that there is no need to use mf gear ). i hated all this  attitudes and allways thought they are wrong, arrogant and stupid.
( pls. note that  i am not referring to you or even to any of the active posters which are here in LL/ Mf at the moment - seems so that most of these guys already have found other places to enjoy.)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224136\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Okay, I misread you, seems that since I started shooting with leica I have heard way too much talk about only doctors and lawyers shoot with it..I have always came to the defense of the professional quality the camera has..and now it looks they have a real player in the professional market with the S2. I know a lot of guys have the m8 as a secondary camera but very few use it as their main camera system and in this day and age of AF the r9/dmr is oldschool.. but so am I and for a small camera, one you can easily hand hold, it suits me but I always had to go to my mfdb/ rolleiflex or xact  if I needed something better..the S2 camera would make redundant the rolleiflex and r9/dmr. but I would still need a traditional view camera.
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eronald

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« Reply #395 on: September 25, 2008, 05:45:46 pm »

What is interesting is the degree of preparation of Leica at Photokina .  The stand area Leica is occupying is huge.  The S2 area is like a luxury clinic, with VIP backstage passes issued to you, smiling receptionists and a wait in a reception area with a drink until your personal demonstrator is free.  This is clealry a first class professional PR operation.

Concerning the S2 itself, again the degree of preparation is considerable. The bodies don't look like prototypes, they feel like production models. The finish is impeccable. My impression is that mechanical tooling is in place, and the production line for the body mechanics and lens mechanics is being used already for what are called prototypes.

As for the product itself, pricing will be based on the equivalent Hasselblad (same MP) I am told. Lenses are still being developed, in particular a fast portrait lens. Leica definitely see this as a carry around camera, built for hard weather and knocks.

My own impression is that the camera and its lenses feel too large. This is not a lightweight by any standard. In the end, I think the S2 will stand or fall based on its high ISO ability, and the quality of the AF. In any case, I'm pretty sure that production is going to get ramped up competently, and the body price will be almost affordable.

Edmund
« Last Edit: September 25, 2008, 06:28:04 pm by eronald »
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thsinar

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« Reply #396 on: September 25, 2008, 06:04:02 pm »

I just wish to say as much:

Jenoptik has not "done so" for the Leica S2, which is a 100% Leica "in-house" development.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Interestingly, Leica has also formed a "strategic alliance" with... Jenoptik! Jenoptik is supposed to assist with "development, integration, manufacturing and delivery of parts for digital image processing". And it sure looks that they have done so for this S2. So now the owner of the Hy6 and the owner of the missing back for that camera are both the supporting pillars of the company trying to make the product competing with MF systems. I cannot get my brain wrapped around it, yet.

The Jenoptik/Leica support-deal was announced last summer:
http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Leica-und...tik-kooperieren
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223709\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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thsinar

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« Reply #397 on: September 26, 2008, 02:02:17 am »

Quote
Thierry,

If this is the case, what exactly does Leica need Jenoptik for?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

EPd,

I guess this should be asked to Leica directly, isn't it? My role is to put things straight when somebody speaks about Jenoptik, especially if not right, not explaining Leica's needs and strategies.

Quote
And now that you are in clarification mode, would you please be so kind to comment on this posting of mine: [a href=\"http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28104&view=findpost&p=224140]http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....ndpost&p=224140[/url]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224414\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
May be the same answer as above: ask F&H concerning your post. I have given the information I (Sinar) have about the different products available or to come.

Best regards,
Thierry
« Last Edit: September 26, 2008, 02:02:49 am by thsinar »
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Thierry Hagenauer
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EricWHiss

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« Reply #398 on: September 26, 2008, 02:53:19 am »

Maybe Leica is using Jenoptic's services for projects other than the S2?  R10, lower priced rangefinder are just two projects rumored to be in the works.  Could it also be possible that Leica did the design but needs help with manufacturing?
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thsinar

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« Reply #399 on: September 26, 2008, 04:02:29 am »

Quote
Thierry,

Let me rephrase my question then: what exactly is Jenoptik doing for Leica?

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224512\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

EPd,

I have nothing to add to what I have said, otherwise I would have said it by now.

Quote
And as for my other question: does this cable release for the Sinar Hy6 have mirror lockup or not?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224512\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The cable does not have a classical mirror-lock-up, HOWEVER:

- when used in "ultra-fast mode", a push down locks the mirror up (and prepares all functions) and releasing the knob then releases the camera.
- in normal function, the cable release does activate the AF with the first push, then release.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Have some nice days overthere in Cologne!

EPd
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224512\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks EPd, we do have very nice days, even if busy. Such an exhibition as Photokina is always a nice time, definitively, being it only to meet some people you have not seen for a long time.

Best regards,
Thierry
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