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Author Topic: Should I get a RIP?  (Read 7025 times)

SteveZ

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Should I get a RIP?
« on: August 04, 2008, 01:46:02 pm »

I was recently at an art show where a fellow photographer strongly urged that I purchase either ImagePrint or Colorburst RIP to ensure better printer output quality especially for color.

I mostly print monochrome images using 3800 stock drivers and ABW, and I’ve been very happy with the results, but lately I’ve been getting requests for color.  

Do I go ahead and take the plunge? And which version - postscript or raster?
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Martin Kristiansen

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« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2008, 02:20:09 pm »

I am using an Epson 4800. After doing research on the rip question it seemed to me most people using rips encouraged me to do the same. I thought that it was a lot of money and the advantages I was given for purchasing a rip where not so great. Then I received a tax refund and thought why not give it a go.

I purchased the ImagePrint rip and it has made a huge difference. The quality of the prints I am producing improved a great deal and ease of use is way up. I change between papers a lot and with image print I get good consistency as the same outfit creates the profiles for all the paper types. If I bought another printer I would for sure cost in a rip for it. With the rip printing went from being a chore to a pleasure.

As to the raster or postscipt issue I believe that if you only print images then get a raster rip that is not PS enabled. I am no expert that is what I think is correct.
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canlogic

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« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2008, 02:24:45 pm »

I have the Imageprint RIP for my epson 4000. When I got my 7880 last fall and I called them about getting the upgrade for it the price was crazy. I ended up buying the Datacolor system and I now make my own profiles. If you only use a few different papers I would recommend doing your own profiles. Now that programs like LR2 have the ability to print packages the other main feature of a RIP are not needed. Imageprint does do a great job with very good profiles but it is just too expensive now that making your own is fairly easy and LR or Aperture are so good at printing.
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TylerB

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« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2008, 04:01:27 pm »

download and try QTR for your B&W. If you like it, just pay the $50. At a B&W digital printing workshop in Berkeley in May, we had people quickly and easily making B&W prints with QTR and a 3800 far better than the ABW prints they had walked in the door with.

http://www.quadtonerip.com/html/QTRoverview.html

user group here-

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/QuadtoneRIP/

Out of the box, with the supplied curves and profiles, it worked flawlessly and beautifully with the 3800.

Tyler
http://www.custom-digital.com/
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SteveZ

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« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2008, 05:44:56 pm »

Thanks Tyler, I've used QTR before but find I get great results using ABW and Eric Chan's ABW profiles which are downloadable from his website. Neither of these  solutions really address the colour printing  issue though.


Quote
download and try QTR for your B&W. If you like it, just pay the $50. At a B&W digital printing workshop in Berkeley in May, we had people quickly and easily making B&W prints with QTR and a 3800 far better than the ABW prints they had walked in the door with.

http://www.quadtonerip.com/html/QTRoverview.html

user group here-

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/QuadtoneRIP/

Out of the box, with the supplied curves and profiles, it worked flawlessly and beautifully with the 3800.

Tyler
http://www.custom-digital.com/
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213044\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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TylerB

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Should I get a RIP?
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2008, 08:03:24 pm »

Quote
Thanks Tyler, I've used QTR before but find I get great results using ABW and Eric Chan's ABW profiles which are downloadable from his website. Neither of these  solutions really address the colour printing  issue though.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213056\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

My apologies... well I'd have to ask- are you up against some color quality issue you are trying to overcome? Rips are expensive, and some will require CMYK profiling if they don't come with canned profiles, and learning things like limiting, total ink, etc.. Big learning curve and no good prints until you nailed it.
You do not need postscript, just raster for images. I have and use Ergosoft StudioPrint. But I print for others, I use the RIP extensively for all kinds of reasons.
Many of the OEM drivers have gotten very very good, and I think most people's challenge getting good color are simply good profiles, and learning the workflows. I've seen a wide variety of quality from the profiles provided from the paper manufacturers. Often they are worth what you paid for them. Less than optimum profiles can introduce problems that nothing can undo, and no workaround will help.
You have to ask what shortcomings you are up against, and look into what will address them. It's easy to feel intimidated by not having all the gadgets, but often they are not necessary in my opinion.
Tyler
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eronald

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Should I get a RIP?
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2008, 12:03:15 am »

Quote
Thanks Tyler, I've used QTR before but find I get great results using ABW and Eric Chan's ABW profiles which are downloadable from his website. Neither of these  solutions really address the colour printing  issue though.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213056\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Steve,

 I think that you will get decent color if you use Colormunki, or alternatively buy one of the HP Z-series printers with a built-in spectro. If you want to see the difference a profile makes, I will be glad to make one for you for free.

 I'm currently testing a new software package (actually I'm building it), and I'll be delighted to make a free profile for anyone on the forum who requests one.

 One reason that RIPs are holding their ground is that color management at OS/printer level has been getting unreliable of late.
 
Edmund
« Last Edit: August 06, 2008, 12:11:34 am by eronald »
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BruceHouston

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Should I get a RIP?
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2008, 12:33:48 am »

Quote
Hi Steve,

 I think that you will get decent color if you use Colormunki, or alternatively buy one of the HP Z-series printers with a built-in spectro. If you want to see the difference a profile makes, I will be glad to make one for you for free.

 I'm currently testing a new software package (actually I'm building it), and I'll be delighted to make a free profile for anyone on the forum who requests one.

 One reason that RIPs are holding their ground is that color management at OS/printer level has been getting unreliable of late.
 
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213326\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Edmund,

I will take you up on that generous offer in a heartbeat!  (Hmm, I wonder if I could justify a trip to Paris as part of the deal...)

I have an Epson R2400 and would very much appreciate a custom profile for Ilford GFS.  Please send the color patch file(s) to: bhouston1@satx.rr.com.  (Or please advise where/how to download and any other instructions.)

BTW, what software are you working on?  I need to buy a wider printer (probably 7880 or 7900) and a profiling solution one of these days.

Best regards,
Bruce
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smthopr

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Should I get a RIP?
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2008, 02:07:11 am »

Quote
I was recently at an art show where a fellow photographer strongly urged that I purchase either ImagePrint or Colorburst RIP to ensure better printer output quality especially for color.

I mostly print monochrome images using 3800 stock drivers and ABW, and I’ve been very happy with the results, but lately I’ve been getting requests for color. 

Do I go ahead and take the plunge? And which version - postscript or raster?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213014\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Steve,

I don't know the answer to your question because I don't have a RIP but I do get excellent color prints with the epson rgb driver and superb B&W with the AB&W driver.

I do have a question though.  I've noticed that the advanced b&w driver can print darker blacks than the color driver.  So I'm guessing that a RIP could get the same result in color?  Also do the RIPs available allow printing longer than the Epson driver?  And lastly, what do these RIPs cost?

Thanks!
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SteveZ

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Should I get a RIP?
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2008, 03:57:09 pm »

Quote
Hi Steve,

 I think that you will get decent color if you use Colormunki, or alternatively buy one of the HP Z-series printers with a built-in spectro. If you want to see the difference a profile makes, I will be glad to make one for you for free.

 I'm currently testing a new software package (actually I'm building it), and I'll be delighted to make a free profile for anyone on the forum who requests one.

 One reason that RIPs are holding their ground is that color management at OS/printer level has been getting unreliable of late.
 
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213326\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Hi Edmund, yes, I'd be definitely interested in trying out one of your Free profiles.
Let me decide for which paper and I'll contact you on PM.

Thanks!
SteveZ
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SteveZ

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Should I get a RIP?
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2008, 04:12:18 pm »

Quote
I do have a question though.  I've noticed that the advanced b&w driver can print darker blacks than the color driver.  So I'm guessing that a RIP could get the same result in color?  Also do the RIPs available allow printing longer than the Epson driver?  And lastly, what do these RIPs cost?

[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Bruce, I'm also no expert on RIPS, but you can find a comparison of the different brands [a href=\"http://www.crucialservice.com/products/rips/rips_home.htm]here.[/url]
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Bill Koenig

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Should I get a RIP?
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2008, 06:15:40 pm »

Quote
Thanks Tyler, I've used QTR before but find I get great results using ABW and Eric Chan's ABW profiles which are downloadable from his website. Neither of these  solutions really address the colour printing  issue though.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213056\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


How does a ICC profile work with the Epson 3800 ABW mode. The way I understand it, ABW doesn't use ICC profiles, I have "No color management" checked in Photo Shop when I use ABW, the only setting that needs to be set is the Epson paper type.
So, how do you use a ABW profile?
Do you have the link to Eric's profiles?
Thanks for any help.
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Geoff Wittig

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Should I get a RIP?
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2008, 07:49:05 pm »

Quote
I was recently at an art show where a fellow photographer strongly urged that I purchase either ImagePrint or Colorburst RIP to ensure better printer output quality especially for color.

I mostly print monochrome images using 3800 stock drivers and ABW, and I’ve been very happy with the results, but lately I’ve been getting requests for color. 

Do I go ahead and take the plunge? And which version - postscript or raster?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213014\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I would defer to TylerB's extraordinary expertise overall, but can offer my opinion. As of about 5 years ago, it made a lot of sense to invest in a RIP for good color output, if only because the canned profiles and OEM drivers were so lousy. This began to change with Bill Atkinson's profiles for the Epson 7600/9600, which at least for my color work were quite satisfactory. I still found QTR much better for black & white. Since that time each generation of OEM drivers and canned profiles seem to be a little bit better. If you print on a paper for which Epson provides a decent profile and your color results satisfy your needs, there's no reason to spend serious $ on a RIP. And if you're using a third-party paper, the paper company's canned profile is worth trying; a few are pretty decent, others genuinely bad. A really good custom profile won't cost more than $50 or $100, which is a lot cheaper than ImagePrint! The RIP's you mention provide a very high degree of output control; but they also have a steep learning curve on top of Photoshop and your printer's native driver, adding another "fritter factor" to mess with before you get a good print. At this point I think a RIP only makes sense if you need it for custom ink mixing or fine-tuning ink limits beyond what the OEM driver provides, or if you use so many different third party papers that the cumulative cost of custom profiles makes something like ImagePrint attractive.
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eronald

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« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2008, 11:04:37 pm »

- If you use a native driver you should have a profiling tool. Native drivers tend to go wierd.
- If you use a RIP, life will probably be ok, provided you stick to brands of paper which they support.
- You need a screen profiler anyway. ColorMunki anyone ?
I think I have 6 spectros now. And I can never get those precious Epson drivers to work for very long.

Edmund

Quote
I would defer to TylerB's extraordinary expertise overall, but can offer my opinion. As of about 5 years ago, it made a lot of sense to invest in a RIP for good color output, if only because the canned profiles and OEM drivers were so lousy. This began to change with Bill Atkinson's profiles for the Epson 7600/9600, which at least for my color work were quite satisfactory. I still found QTR much better for black & white. Since that time each generation of OEM drivers and canned profiles seem to be a little bit better. If you print on a paper for which Epson provides a decent profile and your color results satisfy your needs, there's no reason to spend serious $ on a RIP. And if you're using a third-party paper, the paper company's canned profile is worth trying; a few are pretty decent, others genuinely bad. A really good custom profile won't cost more than $50 or $100, which is a lot cheaper than ImagePrint! The RIP's you mention provide a very high degree of output control; but they also have a steep learning curve on top of Photoshop and your printer's native driver, adding another "fritter factor" to mess with before you get a good print. At this point I think a RIP only makes sense if you need it for custom ink mixing or fine-tuning ink limits beyond what the OEM driver provides, or if you use so many different third party papers that the cumulative cost of custom profiles makes something like ImagePrint attractive.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213542\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: August 06, 2008, 11:05:18 pm by eronald »
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SteveZ

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« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2008, 11:30:59 pm »

Bill, here's the link to Eric Chan's profiles. I believe they are made to work only for the epson 3800 printer.

http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Ep...bwprofiles.html

Quote
How does a ICC profile work with the Epson 3800 ABW mode. The way I understand it, ABW doesn't use ICC profiles, I have "No color management" checked in Photo Shop when I use ABW, the only setting that needs to be set is the Epson paper type.
So, how do you use a ABW profile?
Do you have the link to Eric's profiles?
Thanks for any help.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213518\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: August 06, 2008, 11:34:43 pm by SteveZ »
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peterpix2008

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« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2008, 12:29:49 pm »

I got the  Colorburst rip  that was a 3800 option and it works great ;was $200. Often I get  better prints using it than not using it.

Peter
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Bill Koenig

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« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2008, 01:45:55 pm »

Quote
Bill, here's the link to Eric Chan's profiles. I believe they are made to work only for the epson 3800 printer.

http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Ep...bwprofiles.html
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213576\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks Steve.
So with these icc profiles, do I now print from Photoshop, with "No color management" set in the printer driver?
The part that's confusing me, are the tone settings that are listed with each profile. Normally these would be set in the ABW driver, but I'm not using the printer driver, if I'm printing from PS, or, maybe I'm just totally confused.
Could someone clarify this for me.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2008, 03:34:59 pm by Bill Koenig »
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SteveZ

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« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2008, 09:22:16 am »

Quote
Thanks Steve.
So with these icc profiles, do I now print from Photoshop, with "No color management" set in the printer driver?
The part that's confusing me, are the tone settings that are listed with each profile. Normally these would be set in the ABW driver, but I'm not using the printer driver, if I'm printing from PS, or, maybe I'm just totally confused.
Could someone clarify this for me.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213692\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Bill -  Eric Chan explains the printing workflow on his website. I could try and explain it, but Eric's tutorial really simplifies it.

Check it out.
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wesley

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« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2008, 12:03:25 pm »

Quote
Thanks Steve.
So with these icc profiles, do I now print from Photoshop, with "No color management" set in the printer driver?
The part that's confusing me, are the tone settings that are listed with each profile. Normally these would be set in the ABW driver, but I'm not using the printer driver, if I'm printing from PS, or, maybe I'm just totally confused.
Could someone clarify this for me.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213692\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

In Photoshop (CS2 for me), I check 'Photoshop manages color' and Eric's B&W profile is selected in Print Preview. In the printer setup, use ABW on 'Light'. Assuming that your screen is calibrated, the B&W print should come out perfectly.

Best
Wes
« Last Edit: August 08, 2008, 12:05:41 pm by wesley »
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Bill Koenig

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« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2008, 11:16:03 am »

Quote
In Photoshop (CS2 for me), I check 'Photoshop manages color' and Eric's B&W profile is selected in Print Preview. In the printer setup, use ABW on 'Light'. Assuming that your screen is calibrated, the B&W print should come out perfectly.

Best
Wes
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213926\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks, Wes, Steve,

Now I understand, I've always used the ABW driver with color management turned OFF in PhotoShop. I didn't realize that I could use a icc profile "With the ABW driver"  
All is well now.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 11:23:24 am by Bill Koenig »
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