Poll: Top priority MFDB specs.

A Large high definition LCD (D3)

21 (17.2%)

Wireless data transfer to a device with a large LCD

6 (4.9%)

Higher ISO (usable up to 1600)

41 (33.6%)

A full frame 30 mp sensor under $30.000

23 (18.9%)

More megapixels - a 100 mp sensor

5 (4.1%)

Higher frame rates (over 2 fps)

2 (1.6%)

A square full frame sensors

9 (7.4%)

A 2:3 ratio sensors

0 (0%)

A completely new format sensor (1:3, 1:4, 2:5)

0 (0%)

A rotating sensor

3 (2.5%)

20, 40, 60, 80 GB of built-in solid-state memory

0 (0%)

Dual memory card slots

0 (0%)

None of the above.

12 (9.8%)

Total Members Voted: 116

[James R Russell]

James,

I will be frank and honest: I know that we are not the 1st player in the USA, not even the second or the 3rd. I know this, you know this and everybody here knows it as well.
We may not have the glitter and shine (understand marketing) of some other players, rightly or wrongly, admitted as well.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212722\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The strange thing is, you have a good product.  If you run into a user that has taken the effort and time to learn it, they will say just that. Same with dealers.  If you find a good dealer like Steve Hendrix he can put a very positive approach to Sinar.  Same with you, you know your product and seem to bend over backwards for the customer.

Atlanta and the Far East are not considered by most people as the center of the world when it comes to photography.  New York, LA, London, Paris, maybe Milan are, but anything past that, rightly or wrongly is considered on the fringe.

So, if your not strongly represented in those markets, (once again rightly or wrongly) your missing sales.

I'm based and live in New York, but for the last few weeks have been in our Dallas studio.

Even in this fringe market, I can buy profoto, Arri, Matthews on the spot.  Yesterday I bought a 1ds3 in 6 minutes, but to buy a medium format back for my cameras (probably about any camera) would take at least a week of waiting.

Here, I can rent a Phase today, maybe a Leaf as long as it's on a H body, but I doubt seriously if I can demo any hy6 or afi in this market on the day, probably not in a few days.

I do not know the dynamics of the medium format camera business (and don't want to ) but I don't know how anyone can sell product, especially expensive product, unless they can easily get it into the hands of the buyer.

I would think all of the information you get here, positive and negative would be appreciated.

People on this forum (potential customers) have given you a lot of honest information on how difficult it is to find much less buy your product and once again, you seem like a good guy, but I would think the proper response to this would be to answer with a plan on how Sinar will remedy this perception, real or not.

I know 8 photographers this year that have either sold, or attempted to sell their medium format equipment.  some because it's a down market, some because they need more useability and some just because they are frustrated with the whole process.

Right now in my inbox I have two e-mails to address on Monday morning where friends want me to help them get a fix with their medium format back issues.  I'm not a dealer or a rep or a camera sales person, but they came to me just because I have the e-mails of someone higher up the chain that might get a resolve.  

I know you want to put your product in a positive light, (we all want to put ourselves in a positive light), but the best way to do this is to address the issues head on and offer more than your competition.  

Being a good guy won't change that.  Getting product into rental and on the shelves will.

JR

[BJNY]

Well, it's August & vacation time for many, hence the quietness.
Also, it's ONLY 6 weeks to go until Photokina,
so I don't expect any manufacturer to fully reveal their cards until then.

[eronald]

The back manufacturers care  about making money and they are using the same trick as Microsoft which is perpetual insatisfaction - "The next version will be the good one". Nikon and Canon make a good part of the profit from lenses, and you only sell lenses when people are happy with the camera.



Edmund

interesting results so far - hardy har har...
actually nothing surprising and very much what i expected.

the one thing i was really interested in, was to see if there would be any reaction to this from the dealer/manufacturer side. anything that resembled an answer or explanation that is.

either
a) okay, over 50% of the mf photographers here are interested in better high iso and better lcd's - we've been working on that for a long time but we can't give it to you because ...

or,

 we'll get on that asap.

or

c) yes, we knew this already, but we are not the least bit interested in what working photographers want. we think that what is wished for by working photographers using mf cameras on forums is completely irrelevant and has nothing to do with who will actually buy our cameras and what they want.

i would actually be thankful for any statement. but instead it's complete silence coupled with marketing hype on product innovations that most people can't afford or don't need.

why is this industry so concerned with things that are freaking irrelevant for the people who actually need and want to use mfdb and so NOT concerned with the things we need?

why do i have to write emails to reps in london to get answers on questions concerning upgrades, when i'm located in hamburg, germany?

why do i have to take a hour out my day to go to calumet and find out that the firewire cable i ordered was dragged through the shop and stepped on? and then order a firewire cable for my leaf camera from a phase-one rep?

why is service soooooo bad on such a hugely expensive piece of equipment?

why should i invest more money in this kind of service and treatment?

does 50% of the people wanting a better lcd and clean iso 800 mean anything to you people making digital backs? is it even on the priority list?

is anybody listening?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212739\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[yaya]

is anybody listening?

Yes, we hear you, If I had proper answers for you be sure that you would have heard them by now.

However:

111 votes
30 posters (inc. Thierry and myself) that not all own a digital back
57 votes in total for high iso and better screens
2,106 views - this is a fair number but this can also be 111 voters reading 20 times (every other post).
Can go one step further to split the posters into genres (can do this with anonymous voters)

Statistically, to base a product's roadmap on this pole will be unreasonable, to say the least, no matter how much we all here agree on these two mentioned features.

Kipling, Hamburg to Köln by train takes 4 hrs and €30 - hopefully we'll see you there. I took note about your firewire cable issue and am making sure that this farce won't happen again.

BR

Yair

PS I know this post will raise havoc, my helmet is ON....

[eronald]

Yair, why not simply give (sell) us what we want ?
Or did your marketing director forget to do a user survey ?
Re. ISO, maybe you have too much light over in Israel?  I was shooting snapshots in the Paris street today and down to F5.6. Depth of field ? Ha!

Edmund

[robert zimmerman]

Yes, we hear you, If I had proper answers for you be sure that you would have heard them by now.

However:

111 votes
30 posters (inc. Thierry and myself) that not all own a digital back
57 votes in total for high iso and better screens
2,106 views - this is a fair number but this can also be 111 voters reading 20 times (every other post).
Can go one step further to split the posters into genres (can do this with anonymous voters)

Statistically, to base a product's roadmap on this pole will be unreasonable, to say the least, no matter how much we all here agree on these two mentioned features.

Kipling, Hamburg to Köln by train takes 4 hrs and €30 - hopefully we'll see you there. I took note about your firewire cable issue and am making sure that this farce won't happen again.

BR

Yair

PS I know this post will raise havoc, my helmet is ON....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212825\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

hi yair,

i'm not silly enough to think that this little poll means anything on a large scale for manufacturers of digital backs. BUT, I think it does show that a majority of mfdb owners are more interested in the things that aren't being spoken about, than the things being propagated in ad campaigns, emails, news letters, etc. etc.

i'm not really interested in a road map at this point, i gave up on that. i'm just baffled that two basic things that would help the client base, are not being addressed, yet revolving chips, new sensor formats, and more and more pixels are.

who asked for the true wide sensor? i'd like to see that poll.
and if this is the road map, where are leaf headed?

i just don't understand the companies selling this stuff i guess, because anyone working with these cameras knows that 50mp and a 2:3 chip aren't on the list. why not just go directly to the square 6x6 chip and sell it for $250.000 and be done with the madness and get back to the real world?

[jing q]

I'm curious, since this board has its fair share of photogs from USA and Europe, how are the demands listed here unreasonable?

I'm curious as to how Leaf or Phase One decides on what features to work on when they update their backs.Do they ask professional photographers, ever?

I don't know who the MFDB people are targetting, and obviously it isn't me,so if anyone wants to buy a less than year old 75S please pm me

Yes, we hear you, If I had proper answers for you be sure that you would have heard them by now.

However:

111 votes
30 posters (inc. Thierry and myself) that not all own a digital back
57 votes in total for high iso and better screens
2,106 views - this is a fair number but this can also be 111 voters reading 20 times (every other post).
Can go one step further to split the posters into genres (can do this with anonymous voters)

Statistically, to base a product's roadmap on this pole will be unreasonable, to say the least, no matter how much we all here agree on these two mentioned features.

Kipling, Hamburg to Köln by train takes 4 hrs and €30 - hopefully we'll see you there. I took note about your firewire cable issue and am making sure that this farce won't happen again.

BR

Yair

PS I know this post will raise havoc, my helmet is ON....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212825\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[E_Edwards]

I think like Morgan Moore said earlier, digital back manufacturers are at the mercy of Dalsa or Kodak.

Do you really think that Leaf, Phase Hass or Sinar would not come up with a high ISO low noise solution as soon as they could? Or a better Live View, etc. They would, if only to be ahead of the competition. But I guess that if the chip is not made to withstand higher sensitivity, there is not much they can do, other than minor tweaks. Ditto with Live View, they would love to have the best in the market, but they just can't, technologically they can't easily do it with what they are given.

I really don't believe they are giving us small incremental improvements deliberately, in order to shift cameras, as in a calculated plot. They are probably doing the best they can.

Then we have another problem of their own doing: Phase announces a higher pixel back. Hasselblad then feels compelled to come up with their own equivalent, and then Leaf, not to fall behind, they also announce their own offering. Maybe they didn't want to go that way, but I guess that if one brand announces, then the other, for marketing reasons, must follow suit. What a charade!

I have some sympathy, frustrated as I may be to see the slow progress.

The future for them doesn't seem so rosy, particularly with Canon, Nikon or Sony making great advances and being able to make their own chips to their own specification and tailored specifically to be used in photographic cameras, not for lab instruments or surveillance or telescopes or Nasa requirements and the like. It's probably a matter of time before we see one of them in a position to challenge the medium format back makers with a better chip, better ISO, better resolution, well, better everything in a compact size and for a lot less money and ready to be bought in any big city in the world in less than 6 minutes.

[jing q]

give us a bloody better digital preview for crying out loud
that is NOT dependent on Kodak or Dalsa

I wish some asian company would come into the MFDB realm and do a Fotoman (ok it's an obtuse reference for some...)

I think like Morgan Moore said earlier, digital back manufacturers are at the mercy of Dalsa or Kodak.

Do you really think that Leaf, Phase Hass or Sinar would not come up with a high ISO low noise solution as soon as they could? Or a better Live View, etc. They would, if only to be ahead of the competition. But I guess that if the chip is not made to withstand higher sensitivity, there is not much they can do, other than minor tweaks. Ditto with Live View, they would love to have the best in the market, but they just can't, technologically they can't easily do it with what they are given.

I really don't believe they are giving us small incremental improvements deliberately, in order to shift cameras, as in a calculated plot. They are probably doing the best they can.

Then we have another problem of their own doing: Phase announces a higher pixel back. Hasselblad then feels compelled to come up with their own equivalent, and then Leaf, not to fall behind, they also announce their own offering. Maybe they didn't want to go that way, but I guess that if one brand announces, then the other, for marketing reasons, must follow suit. What a charade!

I have some sympathy, frustrated as I may be to see the slow progress.

The future for them doesn't seem so rosy, particularly with Canon, Nikon or Sony making great advances and being able to make their own chips to their own specification and tailored specifically to be used in photographic cameras, not for lab instruments or surveillance or telescopes or Nasa requirements and the like. It's probably a matter of time before we see one of them in a position to challenge the medium format back makers with a better chip, better ISO, better resolution, well, better everything in a compact size and for a lot less money and ready to be bought in any big city in the world in less than 6 minutes.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212843\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[thsinar]

James,

I would think all of the information you get here, positive and negative would be appreciated.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212787\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It is obviously appreciated, much, to get all this feedback, including your comments. Don't get me wrong, all serious information is forwarded, then taken care by the responsible.

People on this forum (potential customers) have given you a lot of honest information on how difficult it is to find much less buy your product and once again, you seem like a good guy, but I would think the proper response to this would be to answer with a plan on how Sinar will remedy this perception, real or not.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212787\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, absolutely, and again, I do appreciate all this information, otherwise I would not be here.

My previous post was not meant to say that I believe all to be perfect (concerning Sinar and in this US market), of course not. What I wrote was also not meaning that nothing is done to try to improve things which we believe not working or being a problem.

Much has already changed, and many have certainly noticed it. Other issues are still open and looked into it. It takes time, for certain things to find the right answer, to change it from one day to the next, but don't believe that we are sitting with crossed arms and with the satisfaction and the believe that all is done and perfect.  

I know you want to put your product in a positive light, (we all want to put ourselves in a positive light), but the best way to do this is to address the issues head on and offer more than your competition.  

Being a good guy won't change that.  Getting product into rental and on the shelves will.

JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212787\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm not sure what means "being a good guy". I am not here to be "good", but what I know is that I (we) take ALL issues seriously, check the "facts" out, then try to address and solve the problem myself, if possible, or then forward it to who I believe being the right person to address the issue. And then mostly I do even the follow up. This for "normal" issues.

When it comes to what you are mentioning here, to more general problems like distribution/servicing and support,  and since I am not personally the responsible for this market, these issues are forwarded straight away. Again, do not think that what you are saying is put in doubt : there are people who work on it, but it simply takes time.

All I wish(ed) to make clear, was to clean away the idea spread by some that all is negative, that there is no support, no help, no knowledge about products, etc ...: there are many examples of the contrary, and in reality, I can't remember having seen one single complain about the above in the last months.

There are things which still need to change, obviously, and they shall change.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

[James R Russell]

Yair

PS I know this post will raise havoc, my helmet is ON....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212825\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

There is really not much to say about any of this.

This poll is small.

If we followed everybody's advice we would all go crazy.

I really don't think it matters, if what you have works for you.


JR