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Author Topic: Digital Rangefinders  (Read 6076 times)

MiamiPhotog

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Digital Rangefinders
« on: July 28, 2008, 11:02:31 pm »

What is preventing the major camera makers from creating a real digital rangefinder? Personally, I don't want to carry a large SLR or a low IQ compact (Ricoh GX100 or Canon G9). I want a "digital" Bessa, Zeiss, or Nikon rangefinder.
Is it technology? I don't think it is. Just drop a CCD or CMOS in it. Most people that really need and want it will buy it even at $1,500 and higher. And when it comes to size, I think it is a better solution to small camera size than the 4/3 system.
A nice digital rangefinder using these small lenses...I can't wait 'till someone gets their act together and gives many photographers what they have been wishing for.
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DarkPenguin

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Digital Rangefinders
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2008, 11:34:50 pm »

The leica m8 isn't good enough for you?
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MiamiPhotog

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« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2008, 12:46:11 am »

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The leica m8 isn't good enough for you?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211300\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The Leica is good to those who can afford it...$5000 body and absurdly expensive lenses. I even think the M8 could also be improved on in some ways.
I would like to see something a little within reach of the less than affluent photographer and enthusiast.
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klane

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« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2008, 03:14:13 am »

epson r-d1 is a digital bessa basically.
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MarkL

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« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2008, 07:30:28 am »

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Is it technology? I don't think it is. Just drop a CCD or CMOS in it.

It isn't that simple.

The very close lens to sensor distance means that the light is hitting the sensor at a very acute angle causing all sorts of problems. Leica once stated that a digital M would be impossible but developed some offset microlens technology to get round this issue but even then they had to go for a cropped sensor because the edges were still an issue. What used to be an asset allowing better lenses is now a problem with digital.

Look at all the issues the M8 has had, it really isn't easy. Rangefinders have always been a niche market anyway. Not many companies are going to go through the pain and expense of solving the technical issues for such small sales.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2008, 07:31:00 am by MarkL »
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BJL

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« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2008, 12:08:42 pm »

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The very close lens to sensor distance means that the light is hitting the sensor at a very acute angle causing all sorts of problems. Leica ... developed some offset microlens technology to get round this issue but even then they had to go for a cropped sensor because the edges were still an issue. What used to be an asset allowing better lenses is now a problem with digital.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211366\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Agreed, except that it was Kodak that developed the off-set micro-lens approach. Also, even with those micro-lenses, Leica apparently needed to design the new more telecentric 16-18-21mm Tri-Elmar for good wide angle performance.

And lens design changes is a major problem for RF compactness. Once wide to normal lenses must be redesigned to be adequately telecentric (light hitting all parts of the sensor not too far off perpendicular), the designs become like DSLR lens designs, losing all the size advantage of traditional rangefinder lens designs. The remaining RF size advantage of omitting the mirror and VF hump will probably be dealt with, if at all, in other ways, like the side-swinging mirrors and porro-prism VF that Olympus has used from time to time, or eliminating the optical VF n favor of a sufficiently good "live video" viewfinder: a rear LCD and/or EVF peep-hole.

My vote is for a big, sharp, bright, rear screen with a fold-out shade-hood.
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uaiomex

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« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2008, 03:54:41 pm »

How about new Panasonic LX3? I know, is no M8, but the specifications and a few samples online I've seen, promise a lot of fun and quality from this little wonder.
I'm gonna buy one. I was thinking about the G9, but it never made it entirely to into my mind. The Lx3 did it, with the external viewfinder, short shutter lag (if any), raw format and high iso. Price is not bad either.

Eduardo
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JohnBrew

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Digital Rangefinders
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2008, 06:32:29 pm »

I've had an M8 for 1 1/2 yrs. No problems and I get great images. Many griped about the prices but if you want a digital rangefinder it's the only game in town at the moment. Yes, I think the prices are outrageous - look at how much Leica has raised the prices on their film M's. But that's just life in the big city. Even so, if Leica does come out with a FF (M9?) I'll probably bite the bullet because, IMO, Leica glass justifies it. And I love getting what I want in IQ without carrying a DSLR.

JonasYip

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« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2008, 07:00:52 pm »

The Epson RD1 is one of my most favorite cameras, ever. It has been (or they have been... I have two) my daily camera for years over some other mighty fine cameras that I use only when I need them (Leica M6, D2x, piles of medium format gear). Though recently the D3 and D300 have caused me to leave the RD1 at home a lot more...

Anyway, the RD1 really captures the rangefinder experience while just happening to be digital, and produces really nice files. The M8 for some reason doesn't appeal to me (even without considering cost). I had the advantage of already having Leica lenses to use, but paired with VC lenses it's certainly an affordable option (relative to the only other option at least).

j
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Rob C

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« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2008, 04:54:04 am »

Quote
The Epson RD1 is one of my most favorite cameras, ever. It has been (or they have been... I have two) my daily camera for years over some other mighty fine cameras that I use only when I need them (Leica M6, D2x, piles of medium format gear). Though recently the D3 and D300 have caused me to leave the RD1 at home a lot more...

Anyway, the RD1 really captures the rangefinder experience while just happening to be digital, and produces really nice files. The M8 for some reason doesn't appeal to me (even without considering cost). I had the advantage of already having Leica lenses to use, but paired with VC lenses it's certainly an affordable option (relative to the only other option at least).

j
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211584\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


You have a beautiful site - truly a breath of fresh air in a fetid swamp!

Rob C

JonasYip

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« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2008, 12:18:26 pm »

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You have a beautiful site - truly a breath of fresh air in a fetid swamp!

Rob C
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211687\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Thanks, Rob! I suppose I ought to update my site more often to keep it, well, fresher....

j
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lovell

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Digital Rangefinders
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2008, 02:05:02 pm »

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Thanks, Rob! I suppose I ought to update my site more often to keep it, well, fresher....

j
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211792\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Jonas, I was mesmerized by your Paris set....wow!  I loved the post processing...hauntingly wonderful...as if taken in another bygone era.
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JonasYip

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« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2008, 02:48:28 pm »

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Jonas, I was mesmerized by your Paris set....wow!  I loved the post processing...hauntingly wonderful...as if taken in another bygone era.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214828\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks very much.

Although I might note that there really isn't much post processing, just curves for more contrast, hue/sat to convert to toned B+W, and varying degrees of added grain for consistency across the series (and because I like the texture).

95% of the look is due to the lens I use, which is a homemade single-element, fixed-aperture, non-focussing plastic wonder (made from a magnifying glass I bought at a 99-cent store), and the fact that it's shot on cheap 400-ASA print film.

Oops, I revealed my trade secrets...

j

EDIT: I suppose I should mention that there's an exhibit with this series opening September 12... in Taipei. See link in sig below....
« Last Edit: August 13, 2008, 02:50:03 pm by JonasYip »
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The View

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Digital Rangefinders
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2008, 06:49:39 pm »

This looks like an interesting development.

I actually posted an "idea" like this a few weeks ago on the "hot full frame autumn" thread as a possible four thirds chance.

Interesting, how quick some wishes become truer

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0808/08080501...ofourthirds.asp
« Last Edit: August 13, 2008, 06:52:07 pm by The View »
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The View of deserts, forests, mountains. Not the TV show that I have never watched.

The View

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Digital Rangefinders
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2008, 06:52:56 pm »

Quote
The Epson RD1 is one of my most favorite cameras, ever. It has been (or they have been... I have two) my daily camera for years over some other mighty fine cameras that I use only when I need them (Leica M6, D2x, piles of medium format gear). Though recently the D3 and D300 have caused me to leave the RD1 at home a lot more...

Anyway, the RD1 really captures the rangefinder experience while just happening to be digital, and produces really nice files. The M8 for some reason doesn't appeal to me (even without considering cost). I had the advantage of already having Leica lenses to use, but paired with VC lenses it's certainly an affordable option (relative to the only other option at least).

j
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211584\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Beautiful website.

What internet gallery software do you use?
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The View of deserts, forests, mountains. Not the TV show that I have never watched.

JonasYip

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« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2008, 07:05:49 pm »

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Beautiful website.

What internet gallery software do you use?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I wrote my own, so that it could do what I want it to do. And because I could  

j

EDIT: unless you're talking about the "photoblog" section of my websites, in which case I'm running [a href=\"http://www.pixelpost.org/]pixelpost[/url].

BTW, apologies to the OP that this thread has strayed somewhat from the original topic.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2008, 07:08:17 pm by JonasYip »
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