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Author Topic: Switching to MF, best combo under 15k  (Read 9791 times)

Zachary Goulko

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Switching to MF, best combo under 15k
« on: July 18, 2008, 10:00:09 am »

Hello guys,

I am at a point where I would like to step up to Medium Format, since I shoot lots of commercial still life in-studio, and would like to have the benefits of MF, such as placing a back on a view camera.

I have been looking at a used Aptus 22, since I don't really need anything more than 22mp. Can you recommend the best back/camera setup for under 15k to start?
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Zachary Goulko
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yaya

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« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2008, 10:40:31 am »

Quote
Hello guys,

I am at a point where I would like to step up to Medium Format, since I shoot lots of commercial still life in-studio, and would like to have the benefits of MF, such as placing a back on a view camera.

I have been looking at a used Aptus 22, since I don't really need anything more than 22mp. Can you recommend the best back/camera setup for under 15k to start?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=209114\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Zachary there's some really lovely work on your website!

If you're planing to only use the back in the studio and if you're happy to only use it tethered, then there are quite a few Valeo 22 backs out there. I believe that Steve Hendrix @ PPR (a regular poster here) might have a couple of refurbished ones.
This can save you a few $K, leaving some cash for a used H'blad V series or an RZ and possibly a view camera with a couple of lenses.

In NY you can check with Fotocare as well, or Contact Kevin Stutts the regional manager for Leaf America who may have some creative ideas (find Kevin's contacts on the leafamerica.com website.

The Valeo uses the same sensor as the Aptus and is a very solid (and fast) performer in the studio

Hope this helps

Yair
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Dustbak

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« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2008, 11:40:31 am »

I have owned a Valeo, indeed an awesome back. Rock solid and lovely performance. Another option might be the Imacon 528, especially for the studio stills.

I noticed on your website you already have a Sinar digital back? Naturally the 54H would be another possiblity (or the S).

All these backs have no LCD display (or very limited) and/or portability is a bit of a nuisance but if you plan to do the majority of your shooting in the studio anyway that might not be a problem.

I think I would be going for either the 54H or a 528, actually I did go for the 384 at the moment (smaller 16MP square MS version of the 528).
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Juanito

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« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2008, 11:49:07 am »

I picked up my Leaf 22 a couple of months ago. It's perfect for what I do - photograph people in studio and on-location. I got it off ebay for $8,000. (It's in mint shape.) I then picked up an H1 system (camera + 90mm, no film back) from KEH.com for $2,600. Add to that a 50mm lens for $2,000 and you have a total expense of about $13,000 for a system that's been functioning flawlessly. I could have spent another $15,000 for a new Hassie system, but why?

I also picked up an adapter for the Mamiya RZ. The adapter allows me to rotate the back just like I used to rotate my old film backs. The RZ with the waste-level finder is great for using in the studio on tripod. RZ's are so cheap these days too. If all you do is studio work and you're mostly working off a tripod, the RZ is a great option.

Here's a shot that I did last week with my Hassie setup:



One more thing that I'll add about Leaf is that their tech support is great and easy to access. After I recently had issues with Leaf Capture, tech support was quickly able to figure out the problem was my new system software upgrade. They walked me through the process for reinstalling and all was good with the world again.

John
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 11:54:50 am by Juanito »
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Juanito

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« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2008, 12:02:36 pm »

By the way, Calumet is selling a demo Aptus 22 on ebay right now with no reserve. Could be a good deal. It's a Hassie mount which you can use with the RZ system as well. You get the best of both worlds.

John

Zachary Goulko

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« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2008, 01:34:36 pm »

Quote
By the way, Calumet is selling a demo Aptus 22 on ebay right now with no reserve. Could be a good deal. It's a Hassie mount which you can use with the RZ system as well. You get the best of both worlds.

John
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=209160\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I am actually watching that Aptus 22 on Ebay right now. If I can get that for 8k, that would be a great option.

The Aptus 65 at 14k is looking very nice, but slightly over my budget.
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Zachary Goulko
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Conner999

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« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2008, 05:00:02 pm »

Any thought to a 503CW+CFVII comb?

Wanted to ad - very nice work on website.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 05:04:14 pm by Conner999 »
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RobertJ

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« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2008, 05:42:29 pm »

For still life, even when I use my Canon setup, I don't ever use AF.  Actually, I can't remember the last time I've used AF even with the Canon 135L that I use all the time for tabletop...

A cheap setup would be a used Mamiya 645AFD body (the first version) for around $800, and the old school manual focus lenses with aperture ring.

-80mm f/2.8N - $45 like new.  
-80mm f/1.9 - around $250.  
-120mm f/4 macro - a little over $400.

You would have to focus wide open, then stop down to the desired aperture, but I do that everyday on a tripod, no big deal for still life.

Or you can go the RZ67II route for $400-700 for a body plus the lenses are so cheap.

Add to that a 22MP back that should cost even less after these new backs hit the market, I'm thinking no more than $8000-$13000 should be spent on a used one.
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vandevanterSH

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« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2008, 06:22:39 pm »

Quote
Any thought to a 503CW+CFVII comb?

Wanted to ad - very nice work on website.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=209241\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

There are some good prices in CFV I kits.  503CWD with 80mm for $10,500 and the CWD with 40mm for $12,999.  I enjoy my CWD...it's kind of an  oxymoron..a bullet proof mechanical camera with digital output.

On of the best MF "deals" may be the H3DII/31 for $17,999.  Looks nice but a bit much for me, a hobbyist.

Steve
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 06:23:11 pm by vandevanterSH »
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Don Libby

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« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2008, 06:34:12 pm »

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Here's a shot that I did last week with my Hassie setup:

     

don

Leping

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« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2008, 07:41:28 pm »

You can get the brand new Phase One (=Mamiya 645AFDIII) camera, the new 80mm lens, and the refurbished P45 back here for $17K, or without the body and the lens for $15K:

http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/promotions/
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 07:42:14 pm by LEPING »
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Zachary Goulko

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« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2008, 12:37:35 pm »

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You can get the brand new Phase One (=Mamiya 645AFDIII) camera, the new 80mm lens, and the refurbished P45 back here for $17K, or without the body and the lens for $15K:

http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/promotions/
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=209282\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I am just curious why there are so many refurbished Phase backs out there, compared to the Leaf....

Are they more susceptible to breaking down, or have I just not come across any reurb Leaf deals?

The P30 for 12,999 seems like a good deal however.
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Zachary Goulko
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yaya

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Switching to MF, best combo under 15k
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2008, 12:46:24 pm »

Quote
or have I just not come across any reurb Leaf deals?
Leaf EAMER promotions Click on the Right where it says Refurbished

Also: New Aptus 65 for $13,995
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Zachary Goulko

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« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2008, 01:22:46 pm »

Quote
Leaf EAMER promotions Click on the Right where it says Refurbished

Also: New Aptus 65 for $13,995
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=209564\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, I was looking at the Aptus 65 option, however it seems that the Phase is a better deal, which comes with a body, lens, and has  a slight resolution advantage.

Has anyone used the Phase 645 body? I know it's basically a Mamiya body, but how are the lenses on that, compared to other systems? I have heard some Mamiya nightmare stories.
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Zachary Goulko
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clawery

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« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2008, 02:11:44 pm »

Quote
Yes, I was looking at the Aptus 65 option, however it seems that the Phase is a better deal, which comes with a body, lens, and has  a slight resolution advantage.

Has anyone used the Phase 645 body? I know it's basically a Mamiya body, but how are the lenses on that, compared to other systems? I have heard some Mamiya nightmare stories.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Zachary,

The new Phase 645 body is much more rugged and has a better balance with the new grip.
Both the P25 and P30 refurbs are now $12,990.00 and the P45 refurb is $14,990.00

[a href=\"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/promotions/]http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/promotions/[/url]

Please give Dave, Lance or I a call if you have questions.

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year

877-217-9870 | National  Atlanta/Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell  
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James R Russell

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« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2008, 02:39:49 pm »

Quote
I am just curious why there are so many refurbished Phase backs out there, compared to the Leaf....

Are they more susceptible to breaking down, or have I just not come across any reurb Leaf deals?

The P30 for 12,999 seems like a good deal however.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=209562\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think before you spend money and most importantly time, the first thing to ask yourself is "will a new camera allow me to do what I'm doing now?".  

That's a big one because when sales people demo stuff, they normally show you what it does, but usually don't get too deep in what you do.

So, will 13, 14 or 20 grand more allow you to continue doing what you do?

The next question is will it work?  I know this sounds silly and all the reps and dealers will answer with of course it works, but does it work on a 800 to 1000 frame day in 100F weather.  Does the color look good or need a bazillion corrections in different processors and is the system reliable and stable.  Does the system run hands free or do you have to always lug the 16' string, cart o' rocks and the special cart o' rocks assistant behind you.

Most of all is it stable and intuitive.

Nothing will make your heart stop like a software or hardware crash.  Nothing will eat more time, than working around some workflow glitch and something as simple as just processing a few files to send to a retoucher can go from automatic to a 4 hour ordeal if something goes wrong.

When you test a camera, hook it to the computer, fire it to the buffer and yank the firewire cord.

How long does it take to reconnect . . . will it reconnect?

Can you shoot directo to multiple drives, does it backup, are the file sizes manageable?

Shoot 300 files and in the middle of all of this and try to process 4 random selects.

Shoot 200 files with the wrong name and try to rename them.

Go to 4 seperate sessions and apply a new white balnce or tone correction.  Do this on 2,000 files.

Now unplug all of your computers and pretend they just broke.  Can you still shoot?

In other words build your own worse case scenario and then see if everything works as planned.

The final question is, will it do it better.

Forget pixels, bit depth, because as important as all of that can be if a camera doesn't offer more possiblities of what you can do, then your a lot better off putting those resources in front of the lens instead of behind it.

Now in regards to pixel and bit depth, go work a file hard in post.  You know, one of those 45 layered things with masks that allow you to build a unique look.

Does the file hold up?

Once you've made this unique look, ask yourself if there is a way that you could show a client on set how the final is going to look.

Heck, forget showing it to a client, can you just show this final look to yourself?

You may never run into these situations but the moment you think none of the above will apply to you . . . it will.

IMO.

JR
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Juanito

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« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2008, 02:57:54 pm »

Quote
The P30 for 12,999 seems like a good deal however.
It all depends on your needs I suppose. I initially thought that I'd go for the Mamiya 645, but then realized that 1/125 for the flash sync was not going to work for what I wanted to accomplish. For a lot of people it's no big thing, but for me it was a deal-breaker.

I wonder if you can use the Mamiya 645 mount P30 on the RZ67? If I was doing a lot of studio still-life, that's the camera I'd use. The glass is great, the system is dirt cheap, you get a fast flash sync and you get the close focusing of bellows focusing system. Plus, you have the waist level finder that's perfect when you're shooting a still life on a tripod. It would be great to be able to use the 645 for hand-holding and shooting people or landscapes and then use the RZ for still life.

John

yaya

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« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2008, 06:49:08 pm »

Quote
Yes, I was looking at the Aptus 65 option, however it seems that the Phase is a better deal, which comes with a body, lens, and has  a slight resolution advantage.

Has anyone used the Phase 645 body? I know it's basically a Mamiya body, but how are the lenses on that, compared to other systems? I have heard some Mamiya nightmare stories.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=209578\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You did say that you would like to be able to use the back on a view camera...if that is the case than the Aptus (22 or 65) would be the better choice...no microlenses and far better Live View performance are 2 major advantages in that respect.

A new A65 for $14K with 3 yr warranty is not a bad deal.

As for the AFDIII...well I use one and have been using its predecessors for the last 5 years.

The new paint doesn't make it more rugged than before (in fact, recent AFDII came with the same paint), a few things seem to be a little bit better than before but in general it is the same camera. It's a good and solid performer and most of the lenses are very good, especially considering their (relative) low price.

For product work the lack of 45º or waist-level finder along with the slow sync can be an issue and for shooting people the shutter lag can also be an issue. However, as always I would suggest that you at least spend a couple of hours with it, shooting what you would normally shoot, so at least you can have an idea of how (and if) it works for you.

If it works then you'll be fine if you find a good used AFDII as they are very cheap, but like I suggested initially, there are other cameras that worth looking at.

I hope this helps

Yair
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STEVE K

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« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2008, 07:03:21 pm »

James, some of the best advice I've heard in awhile. The torture test.
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jimgolden

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« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2008, 11:42:28 pm »

I think James has a point here - it's taken me a while to comfortably do all those things w/ my H3 - by now I look @ canon and forget!

the only thing I envy in Mam system is the cheaper glass - make sure you can afford to get everything you need - it sucks to have all you nee din one system then have to play the rental game all the time w/ a new system...

also - is there a H3 adapter for the RZ? I hadn't heard of that.
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