White Space Around the Image?

[BruceHouston]

Do you leave a substantial white-space border around the image when you print, and then leave that white space exposed by matting substantially wider than the image size?  Single-matted, that would leave three frames around the print, the white-space frame, the mat-board frame, and the wooden (or whatever material) frame.

If so, what color mat board do you use?  If off-white, you would essentially have two different shades of white frame around the image.

Any comments or suggestions?

Thanks,
Bruce

[Geoff Wittig]

Do you leave a substantial white-space border around the image when you print, and then leave that white space exposed by matting substantially wider than the image size?  Single-matted, that would leave three frames around the print, the white-space frame, the mat-board frame, and the wooden (or whatever material) frame.

If so, what color mat board do you use?  If off-white, you would essentially have two different shades of white frame around the image.

Any comments or suggestions?

Thanks,
Bruce
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I mat right up to the image so I don't have to deal with the problem. Okay, actually my wife cuts my mats, but still. I pick soft ivory toned mat board, which goes well with the prints. Bright white is just too harsh, and I worry about OBA's.

Charles Cramer, well-known fine art printer, uses a neat trick; he tones the white border around the print (in Photoshop) to match the mat board. If you're printing on a bright white paper, you'd go warm to offset the 'blue' and blend with your mat. That permits you to use a high contrast bright white paper and leave a border around it that still matches warmer mat board.

[BruceHouston]

I mat right up to the image so I don't have to deal with the problem. Okay, actually my wife cuts my mats, but still. I pick soft ivory toned mat board, which goes well with the prints. Bright white is just too harsh, and I worry about OBA's.

Charles Cramer, well-known fine art printer, uses a neat trick; he tones the white border around the print (in Photoshop) to match the mat board. If you're printing on a bright white paper, you'd go warm to offset the 'blue' and blend with your mat. That permits you to use a high contrast bright white paper and leave a border around it that still matches warmer mat board.
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That IS a neat trick; thanks Geoff!  So, I am trying to visualize the aesthetics of that method vs. matting to the image edge...  One difference would be the position of the mat bevel relative to the image edge, either immediately adjacent the image edge or offset from it.

What is your take on which would be preferable for fine art prints, and why?  Might the answer be different for B&W vs. color?

Anyone else, please chime in.

[bill t.]

Doing your own framing can lead to madness.  As if photography and printing wasn't task enough, framing puts you into the truly thankless job of additionally trying to second guess your client's ideas about decor.

My advice is don't get too fancy, stick with white or warm white mattes, and then stay with the tamer mouldings even if you think your image looks good in a fancier moulding that appeals to you.  The more your framing acquires some "look" the more likely you are to lose a sale because it doesn't fit some body's decor, even though they may love the image.  All things being equal, simple is safer and color as in mattes is always risky.

Best of all worlds is if you are in a position to say "well here it is in a basic, modern framing that will work well in most interiors...but I can also provide just a print, your local framer is set up to frame in a wide variety styles to best suit your specific decor."  It took me a while to figure this out, but that local framer guy is your friend with a lot of clout when it comes to recommending prints, like for instance yours.

The "toning" trick is very useful for those of us using bright papers.  252 253 253 or thereabouts takes the bright photo papers down into art paper range.  You can even throw in the slightest hint of texture.

[BruceHouston]

Doing your own framing can lead to madness.  As if photography and printing wasn't task enough, framing puts you into the truly thankless job of additionally trying to second guess your client's ideas about decor.

My advice is don't get too fancy, stick with white or warm white mattes, and then stay with the tamer mouldings even if you think your image looks good in a fancier moulding that appeals to you.  The more your framing acquires some "look" the more likely you are to lose a sale because it doesn't fit some body's decor, even though they may love the image.  All things being equal, simple is safer and color as in mattes is always risky.

Best of all worlds is if you are in a position to say "well here it is in a basic, modern framing that will work well in most interiors...but I can also provide just a print, your local framer is set up to frame in a wide variety styles to best suit your specific decor."  It took me a while to figure this out, but that local framer guy is your friend with a lot of clout when it comes to recommending prints, like for instance yours.

The "toning" trick is very useful for those of us using bright papers.  252 253 253 or thereabouts takes the bright photo papers down into art paper range.  You can even throw in the slightest hint of texture.
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All of these suggestions are very well taken, Bill.  Could you comment on the question of whether you prefer the toned white space around the image plus a warm white mat or just the warm white mat overlapping the image, and why?  And, is your answer to this question the same for both B&W and color?

Thanks!
Bruce

[jcote]

Do you leave a substantial white-space border around the image when you print, and then leave that white space exposed by matting substantially wider than the image size? 
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Bruce,

There can't be a right answer to this question. I like about 1/2+ inch of paper white to show between the image and the matt. I would never tone this area. I like to see actual paper white.

As far as matt colors, I would prefer to matt everything with Museum White board...but not all potential customers or buyers like that so it depends on whether I am working up an exhibit for sale or just for show.

JohnCote

[Dward]

Do you leave a substantial white-space border around the image when you print, and then leave that white space exposed by matting substantially wider than the image size?  Single-matted, that would leave three frames around the print, the white-space frame, the mat-board frame, and the wooden (or whatever material) frame.

If so, what color mat board do you use?  If off-white, you would essentially have two different shades of white frame around the image.

Any comments or suggestions?

Thanks,
Bruce
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Interesting issue.   I usually leave a white border around images printed on fine art paper, but mat right up to the image when using photo papers.  The texture of fine art papers contributes to the overall effect, I think, while the starkness of most photo papers doesn't add anything.

The idea of toning the border area is great!  I hadn't thought of that, other than to use QuickMats in combination with "real" mats.

With B&W I almost always use white mats (which white depends upon how bright the paper is).  In rare occasions I use black for B&W.

For color images, I use cream or off-white mats.  REALLY white mats are much too bright for color images, I think.  

And I think simple frame profiles are preferable--I want folks to look at the image, not the mat and/or frame.  I like framing my own work, despite the difficulties inherent in pleasing customers, because I want some degree of control over how the image is presented. For example, I use wider mat borders than most customers or frame shops would typically use, because I think a wider mat (3" for 11x14, more for larger images) adds significantly to the overall effect.    Tiny 2" borders "squeeze" the image, I think.


David V. Ward, Ph. D.
www.dvward.com
David V. Ward Fine Art Photography

[framah]

Bruce..
You'll notice that you got pretty much as many different answers as those who responded. The answer is that you can do whatever you want that you think makes your work look its best.  I, myself do not leave a border of the white paper around my photos while I frame for a B/W artist who likes about 3/8" around and 5/8" at the bottom to accommodate his signature. Then we put an 8 ply rising white mat with 4.5" top and sides and 5.5" bottom. His pieces are usually around 13x16 on average (plus the mat size).

It really does depend on the image. If it looks great with a crispy white, then that's what you use.

I agree with bill t as he said that the main thing is to sell the stuff and the fancier you make it the more specific the target market. Being rather generic with mats and frames allows it to be shown in a professional manner and the customer won't hesitate to change it to suit their tastes when they get it home.  

Sometimes a white mat on a color print distracts your eye away from the image as it is so much brighter that the high point if the image.  Think what will help drive the eye into the image. It doesn't have to be a lot of color, even a softer or warmer white will do it.. just something to help the eye into the art.

[bill t.]

There is also a marketing reason for having a matte cutout that reveals some of the white print paper...this allows you to sign and number the print itself which is important to collectors who do not like to acquire unsigned or open-edition prints.  Signing on the matte doesn't do it for those guys, even if you state the print itself is also signed.

[framah]

...plus  if you sign on the mat and somehow the mat gets damaged and has to be replaced, then there goes the signature.

[Tklimek]

I'll add my own .02 here even though I'm not really qualified to do so; but do have an opinion on the subject.

As a follower of the LL videos I feel that the information presented in both the interview with Bill Atkinson (LLVJ 15) and the "Camera to Print" videos is pretty solid.

So, with that in mind I've been printing my images with a 1" border on all sides.  This allows room for a signature to be made on the print itself.  As far as matting; I double mat all of mine with allowing a 1/4 inch on each side of the image for overlap on the inside mat; so no part of the paper is showing from the mat since the mat overlaps the image.  Since I own an Epson 4880 my max carriage size is 17 and I mostly use the Epson Premium Luster (unfortunately and frustratingly only 16"); I tend to size my prints to be 14xwhatever (14" is 16" minus a 1" border on both sides).

Based on the videos this border also allows easier handling of the prints since you have a border which if you accidentally "touch" isn't a deal breaker.  It also allows for making t-hinges perhaps a bit easier.

I've went and purchased my own mat cutter (Logan Graphics "Framers Edge").  Since I only print a few prints a month, cutting the mats is not too big a deal for me; for some of the maniacs on this board ( ;-) ) that make 50 prints a day that might not be feasible.  I believe in the long run it's supposed to be cheaper to cut your own, but I also feel it gives me complete control in the process; taking the image, processing the image, printing the image, boarding and matting the image, and finally using "Clear bags" to hold/present the image.

:-)

Just my .02.

Cheers....

Todd

[bill t.]

...I mostly use the Epson Premium Luster (unfortunately and frustratingly only 16");
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These guys offer cut-down rolls of many papers to sizes like 17".  Used to use them for exotic papers for my 2200.  Nice clean cuts.
[a href=\"https://www.eximvaios.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1934]https://www.eximvaios.com/catalog/product_i...roducts_id=1934[/url]

Yeah the Logan Framer's Edge cutters work great, I've got the 60" model and it's a true workhorse.  A lot of people knock them, but if you're happy to use the old pencil-marks-on-the-back technique you can get perfect mattes every time with no over/under cutting.  Beats the heck out of the old Dexter hand held things, ugh!  People who buy pricey prints usually expect you to supply a matte.

[BruceHouston]

Because these are issues of aesthetics, the answers are matters of taste, as John and framah point out.

So, thank you all for your insights and opinions!  Any others are welcome.

Regards,
Bruce

[Nill Toulme]

... I mostly use the Epson Premium Luster (unfortunately and frustratingly only 16"); ...
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InkJetArt MC Luster is close enough to Epson Premium Luster to be Epson Premium Luster, is cheaper, and comes in 17" rolls.  Better yet, unlike the Epson paper, the sheet sizes are the same stock as the rolls.

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net

[Tklimek]

Nill.....

How is the profile that is provided for the InkJetArt MC Luster?  Right now I've been relying on the *free* Epson profiles (since I use Epson papers) which I've heard are actually pretty good.  Very cool that they have the 17"x100" rolls.  I may order a sample pack or some sheets to check it out.

Regards....

Todd

InkJetArt MC Luster is close enough to Epson Premium Luster to be Epson Premium Luster, is cheaper, and comes in 17" rolls.  Better yet, unlike the Epson paper, the sheet sizes are the same stock as the rolls.

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net
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[JDClements]

I like to leave a white border on the paper, and it does not match the matte colour (slightly off-white). I have a large landscape print behind me right now by another photographer who also leaves a white border on the print, and uses the space to sign and title the print.