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markowich

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« Reply #60 on: July 12, 2008, 09:23:59 am »

yes, the resolution is very good, in particular i am surprised about the mamiya. but as you know very well, 'better' is the biggest enemy of 'good'. that is why
i shall be happy about more pixels for my landscapes and  large prints. isn't it great that we get one more choice? surely i agree agree that other issues with digipacks are pressing, like DR, lack of live view (phase, leaf and the likes, please check with nikon...CCD or not), view camera compatibility..
peter

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Mamiya 645 for the skyline with the eye and the longer of the zooms. Battersea power station was with the Cambo Wide handheld 72mm Schneider lens. Thames pano is a crop of a single shot with the Cambo Wide and Schneider 35mm lens.

Plenty of pixels, and if you use the zoomify, even with the Mamiya zoom shot there is tons of detail.
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hubell

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« Reply #61 on: July 12, 2008, 09:39:07 am »

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I dont get it. They are entering the 60MP zone without real improvements of the pixels, DR, LCD, colors or speed.

There should be more reps reading this forum so they would know what photographers realy want at the moment.

Just give us around 40 MPs with big pixels, real fullframe, 5D type LCD, more DR and more usable iso. That should be possible within a heartbeat with todays technology. Look at RED.

Damn, so we will have to wait another 18 month till some real improved stuff is coming.

When will they ever learn.

Tim
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It will probably turn out that you are right, but it is premature to conclude they have not been listening. Phase, Leaf and Sinar have not yet revealed their new products  for Photokina(and Hasselblad may not be done). Rumour has it that full frame 645 chips will appear. Maybe the new chips will have improved DR and better color, not just more mp. As for larger, high quality LCDs, I would be flabbergasted if we did not see them from Phase, Sinar and Leaf. We will have a clear picture after Photokina when these new products actually get into the hands of photographers who can test them and report(and who hopefully do not view the exercise as a form of tribal warfare---my tribe, e.g., Sinar, v. the other tribes).

Tim Lüdin

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« Reply #62 on: July 12, 2008, 10:23:56 am »

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It will probably turn out that you are right, but it is premature to conclude they have not been listening. Phase, Leaf and Sinar have not yet revealed their new products  for Photokina(and Hasselblad may not be done). Rumour has it that full frame 645 chips will appear. Maybe the new chips will have improved DR and better color, not just more mp. As for larger, high quality LCDs, I would be flabbergasted if we did not see them from Phase, Sinar and Leaf. We will have a clear picture after Photokina when these new products actually get into the hands of photographers who can test them and report(and who hopefully do not view the exercise as a form of tribal warfare---my tribe, e.g., Sinar, v. the other tribes).
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Hi hcubell

your are right, we shouldn't jump to conclusion. But Hasseblad didn't "brag" about their new bigger and sharper LCD in their new product information. They didn't mention DR in one word.
They would have, if they had improved it. Usualy they mention every little shitty new thing they put in to their cams and backs. So this doesn't look to good to me.
Kinda sad.

All DB makers should get their act togheter and put some bigtime products out or they might be out very very soon. The canons and nikons are not at sleep.

Dont get me wrong here. I love the look and feel of MF. The files turn out way better and are much better for colorgrading. But the gap between the new canon and the MF offerings are getting closer and closer.
A Hassy setup will cost around 50K. A canon Mark3 setup will cost around 22K.
So is the MF kit twice as good? Is it realy worth it.
For my kind of work it should be. I love the MF framing, DOF etc. But the MF kits should offer way more than just a few MPs more than the canons. The sooner the DB makers get it the longer they will stay in the business. Give me more than just MPs and a ok price and I will buy a new cam in a minute and so will  a lot of other guys too, I think.

It's crazy what RED accomplished in just 2 years. They built a digital cinemacamera from scratch.
As an owner I'm  still stoked how good this cam is. The DB makers are in the exact same price range and they are sleeping. They just try to optimise their profits etc and not the products.


Just my thoughts
Tim
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James R Russell

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« Reply #63 on: July 12, 2008, 02:57:02 pm »

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Hi hcubell

your are right, we shouldn't jump to conclusion. But Hasseblad didn't "brag" about their new bigger and sharper LCD in their new product information. ...............................................

It's crazy what RED accomplished in just 2 years. They built a digital cinemacamera from scratch.
As an owner I'm  still stoked how good this cam is. The DB makers are in the exact same price range and they are sleeping. They just try to optimise their profits etc and not the products.
Just my thoughts
Tim
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I'm there on the Red and it makess you think.

Just clicking through the base setup for a Red on their website puts it in at around 30k U.S. before lenses.

Amazing.

Honestly I am surprised that we're not way further down the line with stills.

More megapixels, ok . . . 20% better lcds . . . hmm . . . complete systems based on old film camera designs . . . hmm.

At this point I would have thought there would be a still camera that was the red equivelent.

Something that wasn't medium format or 35mm, just a professional digital camera systems with a variable format.

A system that would take nearly any lens with a mount change and that the frame size was not specifically related to any format, 35mm or medium format.

I am amazed when I look at a top of the line medium format camera and back and the Red and realize they are the same price.

JR
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Morgan_Moore

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« Reply #64 on: July 12, 2008, 03:04:26 pm »

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The big question is: did Kodak or Dalsa do any marketing research? It is very likely that they didn't and that the new sensors are a result of technological R&D,[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207598\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Surely they do market research alright

There is a market for putting these chips in sattelites, spyplanes, medical gear or whatever

I dont think a few cameras nuts who want to make wall size prints is really where there market is at for them at all

The back makers are then left trying to keep going from what is available to them from the spare part bin of these lucrative markets

Initially it was a really good idea to get the chip out of a microscope and stuff it into a box that had a Vmount fitting

Now it would appear that such products are possibly irrelevant to many photographic applications

I, for one, am in no way excited by any of the recent MF chip announcements

The limit of my MF photographic resolution is limited by three factors - my wobbling hands, my wobbling models and 1980s AF technology

Now - 2 D3 chips lashed together - I would be at the front of the queue

22mp 3200 ISO fullframe 645 would rock - Leaf pahse etc need to raid a different set of spare parts bins for thier new products - nikons

S
« Last Edit: July 12, 2008, 03:10:49 pm by Morgan_Moore »
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James R Russell

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« Reply #65 on: July 12, 2008, 03:39:40 pm »

This stuff really needs to step into the future.

Turn it over to 20th Century Fox and Bruckheimer.

Let's get infinate resoltuion machines that allow you to take a 7-11 video grab from a $12 camera and read the fine detail of the perps face on a 48" monitor.

Better yet, let's get past all of this 2d stuff and get to real 3d



Forget about wi-fi'ing a Jpeg to your client, heck, let's just beem the models straight to the magazine.

A device like this would be well worth the 50k it takes to shoot medium format and have multiple uses.

You know, those pesky account executives that say things like, "the client wants a blue background" . . . whack . . . beam them off the set  to  . . . well you get the idea.

That'll quiet the set down.

Also think about the traffic on La Cienega when your trying to get to location.  Pull out your manmelter and zip, road clear, or when the spouse says you spend too much time on the computer?

Come on, Leaf, Phase, Sinar and Imablad.  

Give Hollywood a call and while your on it, let's get some renaming of the products.

What's a P21 have to do with 18 mpx, or a P65+ to 60?  A 54S?  Really.

Let's put some real names on these things (see manmelter for example).

Let's have some gizmos that really wow the clients.  Think about it, pulling out a manmelter will draw some attention, especially if you do one of those Klinko harnesses so you can work hands free.



We're waiting for inspiration.



JR


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Surely they do market research alright
S
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« Last Edit: July 12, 2008, 05:03:16 pm by James R Russell »
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TMARK

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« Reply #66 on: July 12, 2008, 03:44:01 pm »

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The big question is: did Kodak or Dalsa do any marketing research? It is very likely that they didn't and that the new sensors are a result of technological R&D, rather than what the end users may want. For the back makers their choice can only be as good as what the sensor makers offer to them.

Sensor makers have traditionally been focused on jamming more pixels in a less space, instead of making sensors bigger and leave the pixel count for what it is. We are clearly in a transformation period now, where the demand for more pixels is fading away and the emphasis on better performance of these pixels and a larger taking surface is growing. The MFDB market is at the forefront of ultimate imaging quality. It is a small market by nature and so people using this equipment are what you could call "early adopters" or even "inventors" in marketing terms. They will constantly be challenged by the limitations of the technology which is barely ready to be used outside the lab.

We as photographers already know where we want to be, but the sensor makers don't have much of a clue yet, apart from the fact that they are simply walking on their toes in a technological sense anyway. If you have ever talked to the people at the Dalsa lab (I have) you would know that these are mostly scientists, with very little understanding of the real world environment in which their sensors are being used. Their research is not photography driven (unlike Canon's or Sony's). They think of the use in space telescopes and sattelites, rather than existing photo cameras. Did I try to paint these Dalsa guys a different picture? You bet I did! (Not sure it made much of a difference, but then again: simply pulling the lever in one scientists head may be enough to make a big difference in such a small company. Let's hope for the best.)
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I think you are absolutely correct in that Dalsa and Kodak are the prime movers here.  They are thinking more in terms of the needs of NASA, the ESA, the NSA, EADS and other industrial buyers.  This is a troubling thought and does not bode well for the MFDB companies if they cannot  have input in the design and specs of the main component of their products.
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TMARK

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« Reply #67 on: July 12, 2008, 05:02:51 pm »

The following is not aimed at any manufacturer.  It is all my opinion, from a people shooter in a major market.  Full disclosure:  I have a P30+ on an AFd and I love the image quality.  My dealer has been fantastic.

The new product announcements from Phase and Blad are symptomatic of the problem with the MFDB and photography industries in general.  The reality is this, at least for most people shooters:  Rates are down, clients want more services for less money, clients want tethered, most clients don't care or want to know about file size or what you are shooting (they care more about catering), and the investment in equipment has gone up and up, and you must reinvest every three to four years.  On top of that, there is less and less need for high quality print collateral.  Demand is still there, but you really need max of 30 meg 8 bit CMYK tiffs for most mags, and yes, those bus stop ads from a 1ds look just fine.

In this market, with these realities, we get more expensive backs that give us bigger files?  Do any photographers look at ROI?  Anyone?  Bueller?  I know I do.  The ROI on an MFDB sucks.  No really, it does.  Its worse than it was even a year ago because even on editorial shoots they are balking at paying me to rent my own back or they have an arrangement with a rental house, or they want film.  Compare this to buying a Sony EX1 for $6500.  Complete kit with extra batteries and a few PCI-X 16 gig cards is $10k, that's right, less than a P30+, about on par with a P21+.  Just showing up with this cam and pulling focus for 8 hours nets you over $2,000.  That's not even directing etc., which, for a one day shoot and some simple motion graphics for a department store's in-store display, gets you $15k.  My point is that even mundane jobs with video provide a much, much higher revenue than stills, and gets there with a quarter of the investment. This is why buying two 5D's or used 1ds/1ds2's and a few lenses for less than $10k, renting an MFDB when needed, is the SMART move.  

This predicament is, I think, the result of how photographers work versus the way our motion picture bretheren work.  Stills require less collaboration on the whole, so stills shooters work in a vacuum. Most studios of most photographers consist of the shooter and a studio manager, perhaps a first assistant.  None of these actors are really equiped by education or training to run a business, and they have little contact with other studios regarding rates, practices, etc because we all compete with each other.  Motion guys and gals must work with large groups of people because of the complexity of a motion picture shoot.  There are also production companies and very sharp business types who have little to do with the technical and artistic side of movie making.  These people make the business decisions.  With stills, its one guy wears all the hats, and he can't be good at all of functions of running a business.  This results in less than optimal business decisions regarding equipment purchases, not to mention getting raped on rates by clients.  

Could you imagine if stills guys unionized?  The motion guys have been unionized forever. We can't even get the ASMP to respond intelligently to legislation that could take away part of what's left of our IP rights. We can't even stop eachother from undercutting eachother on rates.

This has veered around, but this is the reality of the market these new backs are being pushed into.  A situation like this cannot last.  There will be a market correction.  The question is who or what will be the change agent?  I think maybe Red.  A new camera that is for the future and that is priced to give a healthy ROI given the fading print market.  Then who will be left?  the market will be over saturated with manufacturers of pro cameras.  Nikon and Canon, Sinar because of their technical/view camera expertise and surprising forsight in making a camera like the ArcTec, and maybe Blad because of their marketing prowess.  That being said, they need to get prices down to expand the market.  And if they can't because they won't make any money if they charge less, well, that might be end of some companies, or maybe a consolidation.

One question:  who really owns Mamiya?  Is it really Cosmos?  I've heard it was not Cosmos, but rather some other more interesting player.  Anyone?  Thierry?
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TMARK

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« Reply #68 on: July 12, 2008, 05:05:15 pm »

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Fortunately there is some hope also: Jenoptik is a rather big player in these industrial uses of CCD's. They also make optical systems for sattelites. If they are smart (and I believe they are) they will combine their specifications into something that their digital back division can also profit from. They did after all acquire Sinar and they paid F&H to make a camera for them. It is unlikely that they made the investment without a selling goal. Their shareholders might have some tough questions otherwise.
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Sinar seems really well put together from a business standpoint, although their marketing in the US is REALLY bad. They are really a Mittel Europa company in many ways, which is their strength and their weakness.
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James R Russell

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« Reply #69 on: July 12, 2008, 05:16:58 pm »

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Sinar seems really well put together from a business standpoint, although their marketing in . . .
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[a href=\"http://www.srphotography.co.uk/srphotography-forum/showthread.php?t=735]http://www.srphotography.co.uk/srphotograp...hread.php?t=735[/url]
« Last Edit: July 12, 2008, 05:46:26 pm by James R Russell »
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Caracalla

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« Reply #70 on: July 12, 2008, 05:53:01 pm »

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http://www.srphotography.co.uk/srphotograp...hread.php?t=735
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Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if they ask Donald Trump to use Hy6 exclusively!!!

Perhaps that's the only one left Trump didn't do.....
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TMARK

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« Reply #71 on: July 12, 2008, 07:02:23 pm »

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http://www.srphotography.co.uk/srphotograp...hread.php?t=735
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The Sinar Hy6:  Now in Leopard.
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samuel_js

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« Reply #72 on: July 12, 2008, 07:35:59 pm »

Sorry for mixing music in here too but today, I was upgrading my ProTools/Avid system to the last 7.4.2 version. This thing is amazing. Working with these tools really make you feel in the future. The software does whatever you can imagine. The hardware is 10+, based on analog technology but redesigned from ground for digital. The workflow is just like a breeze of good feelings. The integration between their programs and support and value of older hardware. The hundreds of plugins from other manufacturers that are compatible. The information on their website. You can buy whatever you need right there in a n instant... And I could go on forever...

Digidesign is a very little company part of Avid but kind of the nr.1 in audio production and video integration. I'm always amazed by their products and their rock solid ultra-modern technology.
They have done everything the last years to put a Protools system in almost every music studio and semiprofessional home-made music room.
And they have done it, with a very transparent marketing and offering options for every wallet. From the great production suites to the entry-level products.

Wish the photography business was at the same stage as music...

At least they could learn how to make an amazing Product Presentation.

« Last Edit: July 12, 2008, 07:37:56 pm by samuel_js »
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TMARK

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« Reply #73 on: July 12, 2008, 08:02:41 pm »

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Sorry for mixing music in here too but today, I was upgrading my ProTools/Avid system to the last 7.4.2 version. This thing is amazing. Working with these tools really make you feel in the future. The software does whatever you can imagine. The hardware is 10+, based on analog technology but redesigned from ground for digital. The workflow is just like a breeze of good feelings. The integration between their programs and support and value of older hardware. The hundreds of plugins from other manufacturers that are compatible. The information on their website. You can buy whatever you need right there in a n instant... And I could go on forever...

Digidesign is a very little company part of Avid but kind of the nr.1 in audio production and video integration. I'm always amazed by their products and their rock solid ultra-modern technology.
They have done everything the last years to put a Protools system in almost every music studio and semiprofessional home-made music room.
And they have done it, with a very transparent marketing and offering options for every wallet. From the great production suites to the entry-level products.

Wish the photography business was at the same stage as music...

At least they could learn how to make an amazing Product Presentation.


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207708\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I find it so odd that video and music do all of this so much better.

These were taken at Sound on Sound/Right Track in New York in 2005.  All Pro Tools, nice board at $500k!  I refused to hang a light over it. Oh yeah, a Nikon D200 of all things.




[attachment=7432:attachment][attachment=7433:attachment]
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Tim Lüdin

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« Reply #74 on: July 12, 2008, 08:08:16 pm »

Exactly James. The RED makes me think also.
It puts the DB makers in a whole new light. It's funny that cinematograhpy changed my way of
thinking about photography. One cam changed my whole mindset about what cams could be and what they should or can cost.

The technology is here to create a total new kind of stillcam.
They should think more out of the box as the RED team does.
I cant believe that the new backs and cams have no new inventions to it.
They just go on with MPs. I dont want to end up with a railgun like Klinko, tough I like his pics ; )

Ah yeah, great post TMARK (the long one). It is crazy, that rates realy go down but the cams realy cost more than before.

Crazy times.

Tim

Here a pic of my 50K monster. You could shoot a Hollywood A Movie with it.
Soderbergh and Matt Damon are doing so right now.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2008, 07:07:23 am by Tim Lüdin »
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James R Russell

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« Reply #75 on: July 12, 2008, 08:10:29 pm »

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I find it so odd that video and music do all of this so much better.

These were taken at Sound on Sound/Right Track in New York in 2005.  All Pro Tools, nice board at $500k!  I refused to hang a light over it. Oh yeah, a Nikon D200 of all things.
[attachment=7432:attachment][attachment=7433:attachment]
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When you see this, you almost see how far behind still photography is next to the world of moving imagery.  

[a href=\"https://www.swiftpage7.com/rnakada.rnakada/C080712164900/speasapage.aspx?addr=5158]https://www.swiftpage7.com/rnakada.rnakada/....aspx?addr=5158[/url]

JR
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samuel_js

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« Reply #76 on: July 12, 2008, 08:23:25 pm »

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When you see this, you almost see how far behind still photography is next to the world of moving imagery. 

https://www.swiftpage7.com/rnakada.rnakada/....aspx?addr=5158

JR
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Looking forward too see "Che". Entirely done with a Red camera I think...
And Avid is involved too of course...
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« Reply #77 on: July 12, 2008, 08:34:18 pm »

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I find it so odd that video and music do all of this so much better.

The music industry is suffering just as much as photography if not far more.
Digidesign business practices suffer extremely bad press. Locking out basic features
in cheaper systems that are standard in equivalent apps for the same price point.

Digidesign is like Apple. A hardware company that happens to have great software.
Their software is locked down in terms of what hardware can be used which is how
they make their money, but their convertors are middle of the road at best.
Analog to digital conversion is an important step in both photography and music
recording but ultimately the 'driver' has much more say in the final result.
I've seen/heard stellar results produced on very average equipment.

For disclosure, i use and own an HD2 accel system from Digidesign.
I love the software but have added alternative hardware for conversion.
Which is very common.

Sorry for being off-topic.
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« Reply #78 on: July 12, 2008, 08:39:50 pm »

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All Pro Tools, nice board at $500

I'm sure the software is PT, but that 'nice board' is an SSL, i'll bet they have neve and a bunch
of other pre amps to compliment and i suspect that they have different convertors as well.

Just trying to illustrate here that the conversation is about photography HARDWARE, people are not
discussing photoshop which is really what pro tools is to the recording industry world.
Despite trying to have a strangle hold on hardware.
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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #79 on: July 12, 2008, 08:41:13 pm »

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Then who will be left?  the market will be over saturated with manufacturers of pro cameras.  Nikon and Canon, Sinar because of their technical/view camera expertise and surprising forsight in making a camera like the ArcTec, and maybe Blad because of their marketing prowess.  That being said, they need to get prices down to expand the market.  And if they can't because they won't make any money if they charge less, well, that might be end of some companies, or maybe a consolidation.
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My view is that the business model of MF is dead.

Small series at high prices just don't work in the digital world. They don't provide the sheer investement capability required to push the enveloppe technologically.

In 3 years from now 35mm sensors will probably be RGB, the lenses are already way better and the higher pixel count of MF will not result anymore in any real world advantage.

The only hope for MF is to cut the prices in half and multiply the volume by 4. Kodak, or whatever company providing the sensor, should follow and lower their prices also if long term sustainability is a goal of theirs.

Cheers,
Bernard
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