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Author Topic: 645 sensor  (Read 18104 times)

schaubild

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645 sensor
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2008, 01:07:17 am »

If Hasselblad calls the 36x48 sensor "full format", what will be the description of the 645 sensor? "Full full format"??  
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James R Russell

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« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2008, 01:47:02 am »

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If Hasselblad calls the 36x48 sensor "full format", what will be the description of the 645 sensor? "Full full format"??   
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206575\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 02:18:51 am by James R Russell »
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Dustbak

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« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2008, 02:40:13 am »

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If Hasselblad calls the 36x48 sensor "full format", what will be the description of the 645 sensor? "Full full format"??  
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206575\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Another thing I am thinking about, what body will the 645sensor be used on? The H3 is optimized for 37x49. It is not going to fit directly on that, the prism finder needs to be altered & the HC28 cannot be used for one thing.

I am wondering whether it will be integrated in the CF line as a 645 sensor together with adapterplates. If that is the case and they would be dropping a nice screen into the CF as well that would certainly have my interest.

I could see the H3 line which keeps to 37x49 and the CF as 645.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 02:40:31 am by Dustbak »
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tom_l

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« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2008, 03:00:45 am »

I can't see why they announe both sensors at the same time, everybody will wait for the 645 to compare before upgrading to a 50mp back. Will the 645 still work with the 28mm HC lens.
Don't know what to think of this new sensor. Will probably have better ISO finally, but those using the HR lenses will loose another few mm for movements.
I think this is the moment to hold on, wait before buyling another high end product this year. It will be a very interesting Photokina this year.

Tom
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adrian tyler

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« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2008, 03:15:20 am »

49 x 36.8mm is 645? or is "645" some new kind of   redifined digital format?... no doubt 645 will come along though, can't think of anything better for the manufacturers than to make the thing so big that you have to change all you lenses, again...
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 03:18:22 am by adrian tyler »
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juicy

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« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2008, 05:53:07 am »

Quote
Another thing I am thinking about, what body will the 645sensor be used on? The H3 is optimized for 37x49. It is not going to fit directly on that, the prism finder needs to be altered & the HC28 cannot be used for one thing.

I am wondering whether it will be integrated in the CF line as a 645 sensor together with adapterplates. If that is the case and they would be dropping a nice screen into the CF as well that would certainly have my interest.

I could see the H3 line which keeps to 37x49 and the CF as 645.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206585\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

H2F has a large enough viewfinder, maybe Hass will re-introduce 645-film as a new sensor (the first FF 645 film, of course) and thus they are not talking about pixels, just LP.  

More seriously though, 35mm lens is relatively wide on (overflowing/full fullframe/new  ) 645, of course depending on application. It should be easy for Hslbld to de-cripple H2F for digital and call it H645D. All the other lenses (H and C) except 28mm cover real 645.

Cheers,
J
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Dustbak

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« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2008, 05:57:18 am »

That is exactly what I hope for. The use of the H2F with a CF3 back that is 645. Sounds like it makes sense to me.

Keeping the H3 as 37x49 while being able to claim the highest resolution in its class and having a second line of products that can be used on most camera platforms with adapterplates and thus being open.

Hmmm... maybe I should work on a communication department ?  Ah wait... I did leave that about 8 years ago

We will see in the near future but wishful thinking is always fun isn't it.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 05:58:23 am by Dustbak »
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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2008, 06:21:44 am »

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I can't see why they announe both sensors at the same time, everybody will wait for the 645 to compare before upgrading to a 50mp back. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206591\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Except bird shooters?

More seriously, I guess that either way they had to announce a real product based on the 50MP small sensor first to make current customers feel that the H3D was not just a short term tactical move...

I personnally feel that going larger than 36x48 is a stupid move. Many wide lenses will have a really hard time dealing with large sensors, even those supporting them from the film days. We have seen this already with 35 mm FF sensor, the only lenses really good at it are the Nikkors N series redesigned with digital in mind.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 06:54:41 am by BernardLanguillier »
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SeanBK

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« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2008, 07:15:19 am »

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.......I personnally feel that going larger than 36x48 is a stupid move. Many wide lenses will have a really hard time dealing with large sensors, even those supporting them from the film days. We have seen this already with 35 mm FF sensor, the only lenses really good at it are the Nikkors N series redesigned with digital in mind.

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206613\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
 Last school of thought would be bringing back the concept of old "FCM" series. Where a fixed wide angle lens on 645 sensor, this would satisfy the Architectural shooters & landscapers would generate benefit too. F.W.I.W I loved my old FC/M series, gorgeous glass (Zeiss though  ).
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hubell

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« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2008, 08:45:30 am »

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Another thing I am thinking about, what body will the 645sensor be used on? The H3 is optimized for 37x49. It is not going to fit directly on that, the prism finder needs to be altered & the HC28 cannot be used for one thing.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206585\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The prism is  the easy part. The original prism for the H1 and H2 cameras is a "full frame" prism for the 645 format. The early H3Ds came with it. The 28mm lens is another matter. How about the new T/S adapter?

hubell

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« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2008, 08:46:38 am »

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If Hasselblad calls the 36x48 sensor "full format", what will be the description of the 645 sensor? "Full full format"??   
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206575\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Easy: "Fuller Format"

BJL

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« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2008, 09:57:56 am »

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Another thing I am thinking about, what body will the 645sensor be used on? The H3 is optimized for 37x49.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206585\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Modularity is a wonderful thing. The "48x36" part of H3D cameras is localized in the viewfinder bundled with them, the HVD 90x. But that can be swapped for the 645 format HV 90x viewfinder, as used in the H2F.

The sole HCD lens, the 28mm, would not be usable, but the inability to use a far larger number of DX lenses with full 35mm format bodies has not hampered Nikon from introducing its FX bodies. And I suspect that, as with DX lenses on FX bodies, the 28mm HCD could be used in a crop mode.

As to a name: Hasselblad carefully talks of "48mm full frame", not a vaguer "full frame medium format", so has left room for also offering cameras in "645 full frame": MF makers have a record of offering several formats. After all, there are already several systems with claims to being "full frame", in the sense that the sensor covers the full frame area for which the lenses are designed so that no narrowing of FOV options is forced upon the lens system by a "sensor crop"; clearly "full frame" is not tied exclusively to any one format.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 09:59:57 am by BJL »
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Wim van Velzen

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« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2008, 10:53:57 am »

I guess 54x42mm will be the new ´full format´ and 48x37 will be ´fullish´.
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shutay

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« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2008, 11:06:25 am »

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I guess 54x42mm will be the new ´full format´ and 48x37 will be ´fullish´.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206663\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Don't forget that with their past "marketing speak" record, even if the new 645 sensor really is larger than 48x36, there's no guarantee that it really will be a 56mm x 42.5mm capture area. It could be something slightly less... in between.

Personally, I think all the different capture sizes is a bit of a pain, especially when the industry had 36x24 and 36x36mm sensors on the market. Those were sort of legacy designs due to early stages of understanding how to make big sensor chips and I can appreciate that the industry was in a sort of transition phase. But from the point of view of someone who needs to figure out which lenses he'll need and so which ones to buy, different crop factors and chip sizes is a pain in the but. I'd just like them to stick to one size for a particular range and be done with it, and if it that is to be 48x36, then so be it, as long as the lenses are properly suited to it and a decent range of focal lengths is available.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 11:08:45 am by shutay »
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eronald

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« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2008, 02:05:18 pm »

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Muhammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī: He was a Persian Islamic mathematician. The words algorism and algorithm stem from Algoritmi, the Latinization of his name. His name is also the origin of the Spanish word guarismo and of the Portuguese word algarismo, both meaning digit...so "alcorhthm" is just simply wrong, no matter how one tries to fit & justify the erroneous statement.
     But I think Eduardo (uaiomex) put it succinctly, "it is just a pre-fotokina syndrome".     
Cheers.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206565\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ibn Musa (son of Moses) means he had jewish roots, and he lived in Bagdad afaik.
There are tons of translations of his works around.
Quote
"His major contributions to mathematics, astronomy, astrology, geography and cartography provided foundations for later and even more widespread innovation in algebra, trigonometry, and his other areas of interest. His systematic and logical approach to solving linear and quadratic equations gave shape to the discipline of algebra, a word that is derived from the name of his 830 book on the subject, al-Kitab al-mukhtasar fi hisab al-jabr wa'l-muqabala (Arabic الكتاب المختصر في حساب الجبر والمقابلة) or: "The Compendious Book on Calculation by Completion and Balancing". The book was first translated into Latin in the twelfth century.
His book On the Calculation with Hindu Numerals written about 825, was principally responsible for the diffusion of the Indian system of numeration in the Middle-East and then Europe. This book also translated into Latin in the twelfth century, as Algoritmi de numero Indorum. From the name of the author, rendered in Latin as algoritmi, originated the term algorithm."

Edmund
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 02:06:45 pm by eronald »
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RobertJ

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« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2008, 05:53:51 pm »

I think the most logical thing for Hassy to do is to make a 28mm lens that covers 645, and make it magically have high performance from center to corners, like Nikon managed to do with the 14-24mm G, the greatest wide angle zoom ever made.
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mtomalty

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« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2008, 06:17:47 pm »

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I think the new 645 sensor will be a full frame 645, 1 megapixel, but with a bit depth of 128.
It won't have a lot exact detail (which will enhance that soft focus film look), but it will have the ability to reproduce all colors in the spectrum, including colors that have not been discovered yet. (probably on the next Mars mission).
JR

James

Thanks for shedding some light on this topic.  There is nothing more useful than when
a seasoned pro shares his/her experiences.

Unfortunately,it's a little difficult to fully understand exactly how this new sensor will perform when used for people shooting applications of the sort you routinely share with us.

As such,I have taken the liberty of taking one of your existing images and running it
through a beta version of the new Alkie-Rythm too get a better handle on what we should expect
this fall when the chip enters the marketplace.

I've attached a file that clearly demonstrates the smooth transition from sharp (freaky,
Contax 35mm sharp) to soft (Canon 1Ds3-like).
Also evident is the seamless transition from highlight to shadow

I think this example clearly shows why a MFDB with 50Mp pixel count and high-bit capture
depth easily outperforms anything currently available
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juicy

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« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2008, 07:00:17 pm »

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I've attached a file that clearly demonstrates the smooth transition from sharp (freaky,
Contax 35mm sharp) to soft (Canon 1Ds3-like).

I don't know about sharpness but yes it's scary and freaky.
 

Cheers,
J

ps. And of course like everything these days this new thingy "blows all other existing/competing solutions out of the water". I just wonder why everything is in water these days.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 07:04:01 pm by juicy »
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klane

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« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2008, 09:21:13 pm »

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Don't forget that with their past "marketing speak" record, even if the new 645 sensor really is larger than 48x36, there's no guarantee that it really will be a 56mm x 42.5mm capture area. It could be something slightly less... in between.

Personally, I think all the different capture sizes is a bit of a pain, especially when the industry had 36x24 and 36x36mm sensors on the market. Those were sort of legacy designs due to early stages of understanding how to make big sensor chips and I can appreciate that the industry was in a sort of transition phase. But from the point of view of someone who needs to figure out which lenses he'll need and so which ones to buy, different crop factors and chip sizes is a pain in the but. I'd just like them to stick to one size for a particular range and be done with it, and if it that is to be 48x36, then so be it, as long as the lenses are properly suited to it and a decent range of focal lengths is available.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206668\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I agree there needs to be some sort of standardization in small format and medium format, for example dslrs have 1.7 1.6 1.5 1.3 and a 1.0 chip factor. medium has the 37x37, the 33(2)x44(3) and the 36(7)x48(9).

That is 5 sensors each.  10 sensors sizes spread across 2 formats... I think in the future it would be great if digital companies could work together to establish some boundaries, also in the mp department...
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geesbert

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« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2008, 07:42:22 am »

when i am alki-rythmed my point of focus is usually a bit lower.
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