Upgrading from 30D to 450D

[feppe]

Yes, I said "upgrading." From Michael's article and reviews on other sides the 450D sounds like a much better camera than 30D, and better than 40D to some (most?) shooters who don't need or want some of the features of the bigger series.

Comparing the cameras side-by-side shows main technical differences:
- 450D has higher pixel density than the others on a similarly-sized sensor. I don't expect this to be an issue since technology has advanced so much that it appears everyone agrees 450D has higher IQ than 30D, perhaps even 40D.
- Lack of 3200 ISO. Not an issue: I've used this perhaps once in my 10+ years of "serious" shooting
- Max shutter in the XX models 1/8000 but 1/4000 in 450D. Again, practically never use such high shutter speeds

Most shockingly, the lower-priced 450D includes all of the features that I need and some which are decidedly better than the 30D (and even 40D):
- MLU + bulb mode
- Exposure bracketing
- Bigger buffer than 30D
- RAW
- Considerably higher pixel count
- Liveview
- lighter weight

In fact, the only downgrade I can see from 30D to 450D would be moving to SD cards. That's not really an issue as I can offload my CF cards when selling my 30D, and I don't have a preference one over the other. Even comparing 40D with 450D gives the same result: the differences are so small and unimportant that the 12MP 450D becomes a no-brainer.

Thanks to Michael for bringing this up. Without his article I wouldn't have even taken a second look at the triple-digit -series Canons, as their earlier models lacked some of the features I needed. It appears that Canon has been quite responsive to Nikon's challenge.

Now if they only would finally get easier or dedicated MLU button and parametric exposure setting like the Nikons...


As an epilogue, I'm going to HK and China in a few weeks, and picking up the 24-105mm f/4.0L IS USM lens which I'm sure will make as much of a difference in IQ as the body upgrade. Shockingly the 450D doesn't seem to be considerably cheaper in HK, so if I end up paying duties I'd end up losing money (and missing a hassle-free European warranty service). Pricing discrepancies between US/HK/Europe (quick searches reveal 480/520/560 pricing in euros for those regions) has been a favorite gripe of mine for ages: has Canon changed theirs to be saner?

EDIT: I just noticed a feature in 450D (and 40D) which hasn't received the press in "serious" shooting circles I believe it should: Highlight Tone Priority mode, ie. expose-to-the-right with in-camera exposure setting! Sounds too good to be true.

[mahleu]

The 450D also uses a silly size battery rather than the common one used for (g9-400d) and (10d-5d). You also get a plastic body, no rear control wheel, an lcd which turns itself on and off automatically and a body which is too light to hold steady with a long lens.

[DarkPenguin]

The 450D also uses a silly size battery rather than the common one used for (g9-400d) and (10d-5d). You also get a plastic body, no rear control wheel, an lcd which turns itself on and off automatically and a body which is too light to hold steady with a long lens.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205923\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Is there a particular problem with the plastic body?

The ui on the rebel series (400D on) is pretty good and makes the rear wheel less interesting.

I miss the LCD auto on and off.

I don't get the last comment.  How are you holding your camera with a long lens?  The stability advantage I get with the heavier 40D seems to be with smaller lenses that I operate with a lighter touch.

[mahleu]

Is there a particular problem with the plastic body?

The ui on the rebel series (400D on) is pretty good and makes the rear wheel less interesting.

I miss the LCD auto on and off.

I don't get the last comment.  How are you holding your camera with a long lens?  The stability advantage I get with the heavier 40D seems to be with smaller lenses that I operate with a lighter touch.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205965\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Plastic is less durable and feels, well, plasticky

I shoot on manual and the rear wheel is nicer to use that the button/wheel arrangement.

I find the heavier body less easy to wobble about and it creates a more balanced see-saw effect. Incidentally a 450D with a battery grip produces a similar effect for me.

[feppe]

The 450D also uses a silly size battery rather than the common one used for (g9-400d) and (10d-5d). You also get a plastic body, no rear control wheel, an lcd which turns itself on and off automatically and a body which is too light to hold steady with a long lens.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205923\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not issues for me. The longest lens I use is 100mm (35mm equivalent) although my zoom lenses go to ~140mm equivalent. And I use a tripod religiously.

I also don't see the point of avoiding plastic bodies. When was the last time you heard any plastic camera body fail due to it being plastic rather than metal? And I'm not a pro so it doesn't go through such rough handling anyway. And the weight saving is phenomenal.

[The View]

There are other - quality - issues involved by comparing a 30d or a 40d to a Rebel series camera, that cannot be caught in a numbers game side-by-side comparison.

Numbers side-by-side comparisons are counterproductive for choosing the right camera.

Handling, quality of the viewfinder, build quality, features, image quality/noise levels/image processing engine.

12MP vs 10MP is not an issue.

There's a reason why the rebels are the rebels. Some commentators say, the rebels are so different from the 30D, 40D, EOS 1, EOS5 models they seem to be made by a different company.

If you have money itching in your pocket, I'd check what lenses you'd want to buy or upgrade.

[feppe]

There are other - quality - issues involved by comparing a 30d or a 40d to a Rebel series camera, that cannot be caught in a numbers game side-by-side comparison.

Numbers side-by-side comparisons are counterproductive for choosing the right camera.

Handling, quality of the viewfinder, build quality, features, image quality/noise levels/image processing engine.

12MP vs 10MP is not an issue.

There's a reason why the rebels are the rebels. Some commentators say, the rebels are so different from the 30D, 40D, EOS 1, EOS5 models they seem to be made by a different company.

If you have money itching in your pocket, I'd check what lenses you'd want to buy or upgrade.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205997\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yeah, of course you are right. But the reviews seem to agree that the 450D outresolves many lenses, and that its IQ is on par with 40D. And they also seem to agree that the things that matter to me are the same between the two.

As said, I'm buying the L-series 24-105mm IS zoom, which I expect to be as big an improvement in IQ as moving up from 30D.

[The View]

The 24-105 zoom is excellent on full frame, but it's not optimized for APS.

If you want to take full advantage of that lens, you need a full frame.

There is a lens comparison on dpreview, where you can read about this.

Can't tell you about the IQ being on par with the 40d. Which reviews are you talking about? There are so many of them, and some seem to cater to the pennysaver mentality: you don't need a ... to get excellent quality. It's a bit the other end of the gear freak. The worst example of this is the the "essay" of Ken Rockwell "Your camera doesn't matter".

As for me, I was always alienated by the plasticky and cheap feel of rebels. I am sure you will feel it, when you step down from the 30D level build quality. I'm rather direct here, but it wouldn't be great for you to spend money (based on reviews) and then be disappointed.

Go to store, handle the camera. If you have a Fry's or so close by, go there and spend 30 minutes on it.

[feppe]

The 24-105 zoom is excellent on full frame, but it's not optimized for APS.

If you want to take full advantage of that lens, you need a full frame.

There is a lens comparison on dpreview, where you can read about this.

Can't tell you about the IQ being on par with the 40d. Which reviews are you talking about? There are so many of them, and some seem to cater to the pennysaver mentality: you don't need a ... to get excellent quality. It's a bit the other end of the gear freak. The worst example of this is the the "essay" of Ken Rockwell "Your camera doesn't matter".

As for me, I was always alienated by the plasticky and cheap feel of rebels. I am sure you will feel it, when you step down from the 30D level build quality. I'm rather direct here, but it wouldn't be great for you to spend money (based on reviews) and then be disappointed.

Go to store, handle the camera. If you have a Fry's or so close by, go there and spend 30 minutes on it.
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"Canon's own EOS 40D, while providing Excellent image quality, is a tick behind the XSi across all indicators. Of cameras costing under $2,000, only the Nikon D300 provides better imaging overall. "

[a href=\"http://www.popphoto.com/cameras/5326/camera-test-canon-eos-rebel-xsi.html]here[/url]

And some real-life examples (text in Japanese but images are universal). I sure as hell can't see a difference.

I still don't see why plasticky and cheap feel would mean it's any less capable as a camera. If I wanted anything other than a tool, I'd get a, I don't know, an Exilim instead (they look nice).

[DarkPenguin]

In the tests I've done I'd give the IQ nod to the Xsi over my 40D.  As to handling and feel it is a wash.  40D may be a little better but it is a lot heavier.  The reason I'd get a 40D over an Xsi would be auto focus, viewfinder and speed.

[The View]

"Canon's own EOS 40D, while providing Excellent image quality, is a tick behind the XSi across all indicators. Of cameras costing under $2,000, only the Nikon D300 provides better imaging overall. "

here

And some real-life examples (text in Japanese but images are universal). I sure as hell can't see a difference.

I still don't see why plasticky and cheap feel would mean it's any less capable as a camera. If I wanted anything other than a tool, I'd get a, I don't know, an Exilim instead (they look nice).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206044\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I wouldn't want a tool with a cheap feel.

I also wouldn't rely on Popular Photography in judgements about image quality. I guess they are just counting resolution lines, at least that's what the article suggests. There's quite a difference between counting resolution lines and image quality.

If you shoot RAW, then your abilities as a photographer and in the digital darkroom will decide.

Given excellent image quality, the key things are viewfinder, handling, autofocus, and a solid build. I'd bet the Rebel Xsi's viewfinder is a pentamirror design. And I wouldn't rely as much on its autofocus system.

But this isn't about being right. You buy what you like best. If you like what you bought, then you're right regarding the only person that counts in that decision: yourself.

Only: Popular Photography camera "reviews" just aren't suitable to be used as an argument.

[Panopeeper]

Canon's own EOS 40D, while providing Excellent image quality, is a tick behind the XSi across all indicators. Of cameras costing under $2,000, only the Nikon D300 provides better imaging overall.

This is incorrect on both accounts.

1. The D300 has some features, which are better than the 40D (though the D300 does not have that feature, which is the deal braker in my eyes, but of course people have different priorities). However, I have not seen any advantage of the D300 compared to the 40D in image quality. In fact, the noise characterictics of the 40D is superior to that of the D300.

2. The imaging of the 450D is better than the 40D only for those, who need more pixels and put up with slightly more noise. Plus, its live view is superior (the 40D simply sucks in this point).

I would not hesitate to buy the 450D if my priorities were that way, but I would not fool myself with claiming, that I get better image quality for less money.

[The View]

A simple feature comparison.

http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/digit...xti_vs_40D.html

No top LCD! That alone is a big no-no.

No wheel.

Small 6 image RAW buffer.

Pentamirror viewfinder.

The 40D has an instant rebate at the moment, which makes it only 150$ more expensive than the 40D at a reputable dealer.

Attention: Only for about 7 to 10 more days!

[Panopeeper]

The 40D has an instant rebate at the moment, which makes it only 150$ more expensive than the 40D at a reputable dealer

Sure, a great offer. Though it would be even more attractive, if the 40D were $150 cheaper than the 40D :-)

[DarkPenguin]

What additional factors are there in addition to resolution lines in judging image quality?  What are they and how are you judging them between the 40D and the 450D?

The 450D's viewfinder is a pentamirror.  Its main issue is eyepoint.  At least for those of us who wear glasses.

Its AF is a slightly improved version of the one in the Xti, 30D and 20D.  The 40D's is an improvement over that particularly in tracking.

What is the exact problem with Popular Photography that you completely dismiss their reviews?

I wouldn't want a tool with a cheap feel.

I also wouldn't rely on Popular Photography in judgements about image quality. I guess they are just counting resolution lines, at least that's what the article suggests. There's quite a difference between counting resolution lines and image quality.

If you shoot RAW, then your abilities as a photographer and in the digital darkroom will decide.

Given excellent image quality, the key things are viewfinder, handling, autofocus, and a solid build. I'd bet the Rebel Xsi's viewfinder is a pentamirror design. And I wouldn't rely as much on its autofocus system.

But this isn't about being right. You buy what you like best. If you like what you bought, then you're right regarding the only person that counts in that decision: yourself.

Only: Popular Photography camera "reviews" just aren't suitable to be used as an argument.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206097\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[DarkPenguin]

No top LCD! That alone is a big no-no.

Why?

[Brad Proctor]

Doesn't the 400D and the 40D have the same sensor?  If so, if your shooting in RAW then both of these camera ought to have the same IQ.  And assuming the 450D is a step up from the 400D then it would be logical to assume the 450D has better IQ than the 40D as well.  Maybe I'm all wrong there?

And as far as IQ, isn't the lens used going to make far more difference than the difference between these camera sensors? (Actual question)

Also, the 30D is only 8MP.  Going up to 12MP seems like big enough of a jump to make it worth it.

I don't understand this whole build quality argument.  I personally don't bang my camera into everything I can find so as long as it doesn't fall apart on me I don't really care what it's made out of.

I own a 400D and I love it.  The only gripe I have is the small size.  Sometimes it's a bit awkward.  I bought a battery grip for it and that solved the issue for me.  The battery also lasts practically forever.  I've handled a 40D and considered buying one but the few benefits it has over the 400D didn't do it for me.  I'll wait for the 50D.

[feppe]

2. The imaging of the 450D is better than the 40D only for those, who need more pixels and put up with slightly more noise. Plus, its live view is superior (the 40D simply sucks in this point).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206098\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You are the second person who has claimed the same. There's another thread here with some quick tests about this as well, but do you have any real-world examples which would show how much more noise there is, and whether it actually makes a difference in "normally" processed RAWs (ie. no extreme adjustments)?

As for other items, I'm getting a bit worried about this pentamirror thing: I wear glasses, so does anyone wearing them have experience with the 450D's viewfinder?

Instant rebates are great for sure, but I live in Europe where we don't have such silliness: we just bleed the money.

[tetsuo77]

Plastic is less durable and feels, well, plasticky

I shoot on manual and the rear wheel is nicer to use that the button/wheel arrangement.

I find the heavier body less easy to wobble about and it creates a more balanced see-saw effect. Incidentally a 450D with a battery grip produces a similar effect for me.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205969\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I simply don´t get the point of "plasticky". Actually, plastic is usually a way better material than metal for engineering purposes, specially at devices where high temperatures are not an issue [such as cameras and car body parts].

Take the example of carbon fibre, which is a plastic. Nobody will say "nah, that carbon fiber camera is plasticky". Which doesn´t have any sense. The advantage of plastic over metal is that it is dimensionally more stable [very important on cameras], can be had as lightweight as you want, and most crucially, tighter tolerances.

Eventually, one of the best and most expensive engineering materiales you can have nowadays is not carbon fibre [which is currently a marketing gimmick], but several forms of Nylon fibres and glass fibres.

Or take as well [and yes, I am being biased   ] the Pentax bodies as an example of tank-like plastic bodies.

[The View]

And as far as IQ, isn't the lens used going to make far more difference than the difference between these camera sensors? (Actual question)

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206112\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's the point.

And the ability of the photographer.

The other moments discussed here boil down to personal preferences.

Top LCD is a must for me. I will never again go with a pentamirror viewfinder. I want a certain camera size and a certain amount of hard buttons. I also like the really good autofocus. And I want a large RAW buffer,  just in case.

This is why it's important to choose a camera by actually handling it. Which I have done extensively with the 40D. Felt an immediate liking.

Choose whatever you feel comfortable with. What you like. To choose a camera from reviews only is not a good idea. I first thought the Nikon D300 would be my camera. I even posted this here. Before I actually held one in my hands.

Didn't like it. Didn't like the narrow viewfinder, where you had to press hard to see the whole frame. Didn't like the way it handled. All the specs looked great, but the handling did it. Sure, the D300 is best in low noise. But the low noise isn't that much lower that would make it an absolute must have. The difference between any of those good cameras are so marginal that it's the photographer who counts.

There is no convincing in this matter here. Everybody has to form his own opinion. Nobody can tell argue you into feeling comfortable with a certain camera model. And again, those reviews do a lot of damage with their megapixel and resolution line counting. I actually prefer the more personality-based reviews, where actual photographers say what they like about a camera. I'm sure those personal reviewers will find out if the image quality of a camera is good - without counting resolution lines.