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Author Topic: Hasselblad 50 MP announced  (Read 67438 times)

James R Russell

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Hasselblad 50 MP announced
« Reply #120 on: July 08, 2008, 12:07:56 pm »

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In all fairness, Hasselblad probably had pre-release units to test with its electronics or the published specs were within tolerance of prior chips - either way, the marketing benefit from an early announcement of such a camera, to be available in just under a year, is marketing genius.

It generates interest, builds brand name recognition as a forerunner and clarifies the distance between itself and the competition. People who previously doubted a purchase of a Hasselblad product now could feel much more comfortable with the notion/concept that Hasselblad is on the forefront of technology.

Bottom-line: It’s all about marketing and perception. No one will tell your story better than you, and in this case, Hasselblad tells a great story about a great future camera (other examples include: first full frame MF, the space camera, etc…). Just look at these great photographers that Hasselblad uses to promote their brand:

http://www.hasselbladusa.com/user-showcase.aspx

Kodak creates a new sensor, these photographers created a brand and name for themselves -- Hasselblad is piggy-backing for the ride.

To me, this is sheer brilliance and something to be studied, admired and emulated in our own business endeavors.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206417\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Without doubt, Hasselblad has upped their marketing to probably the best of any professional camera.  

Is it a better product . . . who knows, but if your shooting with a Canon 1ds3 Hasselblad's marketing makes them llook like a superior product.

Hasselblad has learned to emulate Apple in the look of their materials and probably has the best mix of telling the user's story by balancing their sale message of anyone.

They have also learned to keep their message simple but on point.

Though keep in mind in the era of blogs and forums real world use gets reported quickly, so whatever is promised today, better be delivered tomorrow.

I have to admit though, that when I look at Canon, Hasselblad, Phase, Leaf, Sinar and Nikon, other than pixel count (and in Nikon's case finally a FF sensor), there is not much of a difference today than there was 3 years ago as the products all work in essentially the same manner with very close to the same results.

There is still nobody that has plug and play wireless, there is still no way to tether professionally without hardwired to a computer and other than some smoothing at higher iso, there is nothing really that  different about the iso qualities of most of the products (except the Nikon).

Maybe pixel count matters, heck if you read the Hasselblad site you'd think that is all that matters, but other than that professional digital seems to move at a very slow pace.

Actually the one change I've seen in 3 years is computer speed, but that is pretty held even as file size goes up, so we really aren't that far from where we started.

JR
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juicy

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Hasselblad 50 MP announced
« Reply #121 on: July 08, 2008, 12:09:55 pm »

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It is funny indeed.

The brilliant part is in when you can get that customer to pay you upfront and have him come back for more every time.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206424\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

And not too far from the truth since the techniques and hopefully the vision also are ever evolving.

Cheers,
J
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Gary Ferguson

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Hasselblad 50 MP announced
« Reply #122 on: July 08, 2008, 12:13:05 pm »

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ya, I'm on board for a T/S adapter - I'm selling of some soon to be redundant gear...T/S adapter is best news I've heard on this system in a while...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206352\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'd hold off selling gear to fund a T/S adapter until there are physical samples doing the rounds and you can absolutely confirm that it meets your needs.

I sometimes use my Phase One P45+ on a Hasselblad Flexbody. The Flexbody is a terrific device that I very much value, but it can't fully replace my Linhof M679cs ,at least not for my needs,

-the widest lens the Flexbody takes is 40mm, and for a lot of architectural work that's just not wide enough. On this new T/S adapter the widest lens will be 45mm.

-I've used the old Hasselblad x1.4 Mutar and there's no doubt that quality was compromised, not by much it's true, but anyone who uses digital medium format is likely to be pretty picky when it comes to IQ!

-the Flexbody has no side shifts or tilts in combination with vertical shifts or tilts, it looks like the new T/S adapter is similarly restricted.

-the Flexbody has a useful but limited shift range, furthermore that range (and the resulting quality) varies by lens. I suspect it'll be the same with the new T/S adapter.

-the Flexbody introduces colour shifts. True, so does the Linhof, and there's ways of dealing with the problem, but I thought I'd flag that as it can dramatically slow tilt/shift capture rates with digital as compared with film.

-I see that the new T?S adapter isn't approved for lenses longer than 80mm. I've used lenses up to 350mm on the Flexbody and even when the tripod is mounted under the lens rather than the body there's some lack of rigidity that's noticeable at 180mm and problematic at 250mm or above.

Just my experiences, your mileage may of course be different
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jecxz

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« Reply #123 on: July 08, 2008, 12:45:28 pm »

Quote
Without doubt, Hasselblad has upped their marketing to probably the best of any professional camera. 

Is it a better product . . . who knows, but if your shooting with a Canon 1ds3 Hasselblad's marketing makes them llook like a superior product.

Hasselblad has learned to emulate Apple in the look of their materials and probably has the best mix of telling the user's story by balancing their sale message of anyone.

They have also learned to keep their message simple but on point.

Though keep in mind in the era of blogs and forums real world use gets reported quickly, so whatever is promised today, better be delivered tomorrow.

I have to admit though, that when I look at Canon, Hasselblad, Phase, Leaf, Sinar and Nikon, other than pixel count (and in Nikon's case finally a FF sensor), there is not much of a difference today than there was 3 years ago as the products all work in essentially the same manner with very close to the same results.

There is still nobody that has plug and play wireless, there is still no way to tether professionally without hardwired to a computer and other than some smoothing at higher iso, there is nothing really that  different about the iso qualities of most of the products (except the Nikon).

Maybe pixel count matters, heck if you read the Hasselblad site you'd think that is all that matters, but other than that professional digital seems to move at a very slow pace.

Actually the one change I've seen in 3 years is computer speed, but that is pretty held even as file size goes up, so we really aren't that far from where we started.

JR
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I think people's memories are short term; plus I don't see much negative real world reporting here about H3DII31/39, unless I have missed it. There was a few short reviews by guys that borrowed one, but that's not real world to me, sorry.

I just don't think people will remember in 6 months that Hasselblad promised a 50mp sensor six months early; too much information now a days, at least for me.

I don't think pixel counting matters anywhere other than in marketing and in a sales pitch.
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hubell

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Hasselblad 50 MP announced
« Reply #124 on: July 08, 2008, 01:05:10 pm »

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I just don't think people will remember in 6 months that Hasselblad promised a 50mp sensor six months early; too much information now a days, at least for me.

I don't think pixel counting matters anywhere other than in marketing and in a sales pitch.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206441\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Anyone happen to remember the time lag between the announcement of the Hy6 by Sinar at Photokina 2006(Sept. 06)and when they actually started shipping units in volume to actual customers?

jecxz

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Hasselblad 50 MP announced
« Reply #125 on: July 08, 2008, 01:17:26 pm »

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Anyone happen to remember the time lag between the announcement of the Hy6 by Sinar at Photokina 2006(Sept. 06)and when they actually started shipping units in volume to actual customers?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206443\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Now I do!
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SeanBK

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« Reply #126 on: July 08, 2008, 01:32:54 pm »

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...........I don't think pixel counting matters anywhere other than in marketing and in a sales pitch.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206441\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
 In the latest issue of Hasselblad's "Victor" magazine, they are looking for 2009 Master's of Photography. That is open to ALL photographers of Medium & large format cameras, since it will be judged by a panel, including several major photographers, so it seems unbiased. THIS IS a great marketing strategy, IMHO. So gladiators/ditractors do enter the arena, all ten winners get to use H3DII/39 with any lens for 4months for free.
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FrançoisTT

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« Reply #127 on: July 08, 2008, 01:32:55 pm »

"all the color Full Frame CCDs with 9 micron pixel size are now discontinued... so the 22MP backs are going away"

really ???

It is/was a very good chip with beautifull big pixels (for beauty, portrait & fashion works)...

So, it seems to be the end for the Leaf AFi5, Sinar e-54 and others 22mp back ?
And the big chip entry level will become the 33/39MP !?
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vandevanterSH

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Hasselblad 50 MP announced
« Reply #128 on: July 08, 2008, 01:56:39 pm »

Saw this posted at another site:

"Just recieved a mail from Hasselblad:

"(...)Hasselblad is also proud to announce the upcoming launch of a new 645 sensor. Full details on the 645 sensor can be had at Hasselblad's Future Technology seminar at Photokina 2008 in Cologne."

Odd...Is Kodak releasing another commercial sensor, other than the 50MP?

Steve
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BJL

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Hasselblad 50 MP announced
« Reply #129 on: July 08, 2008, 02:32:49 pm »

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"all the color Full Frame CCDs with 9 micron pixel size are now discontinued... so the 22MP backs are going away"

It is/was a very good chip with beautifull big pixels (for beauty, portrait & fashion works)...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206447\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Don't panic.

For one thing, Dalsa still offers its 22MP sensor, used by some of those backs.

More importantly, the is no evidence or valid theory that using somewhat more somewhat smaller pixels on the same sensor size has any significant disadvantage in visible noise levels or DR, once one allows for options like downsampling or other NR processing from higher pixel count raw files. Especially when technological progress has improved the per pixel read noise levels in the newer higher res. sensors, as is the case with recent Kodak sensors: 22e- RMS in the 22MP, 16e- in the 39MP, 12.5e- in the 50MP.


Have you (or anyone here) compared the results given by downsampling output of 39MP backs to 22MP to what you get from a 22MP back? My prediction is that the downsampled output will probably have better DR and less noise, and will certainly have more resolution.

More DR and less noise because the improved technology of the 39MP sensor gives its pixels about the same DR as the 22MP sensor (through lower read noise and deeper wells), and then the downsampling improves the S/N ratio by averaging noise levels down to a lower level, and thus improves DR.

More resolution roughly because the downsampled output contains 22 million full RGB pixels with 22 million each of red, green and blue values, more than what the 39MP file has to start with (about 20 million green, 10 million each of red and blue) and so is capable of retaining more resolution from the original 39MP file than what what the 22MP sensor gives (11 million green values, 5.5 million each of red and blue.)

In practice, in every comparison I have seen of output from a lower pixel count sensor to output from a higher pixel count sensor downsampled to that lower pixel count, the downsampled image has more resolution.

In fact, you might get about equal resolution by downsampling from 39MP all the way to 11MP, which still retains as many green pixel values and twice and many red and blue pixel values as the 22MP sensor gives.


Has any compared the resolution in conversions from Bayer CFA raw files to RGB formats (like TIFF) at various pixel counts? I would like to see ow close my guess is, that once the RGB output has half as many pixels as the raw, there is little or not gain with higher output pixel counts. Though higher pixel count output can have other virtues, like avoiding jaggies.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 02:43:31 pm by BJL »
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markowich

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« Reply #130 on: July 08, 2008, 02:34:05 pm »

see my post...
p

Quote
Saw this posted at another site:

"Just recieved a mail from Hasselblad:

"(...)Hasselblad is also proud to announce the upcoming launch of a new 645 sensor. Full details on the 645 sensor can be had at Hasselblad's Future Technology seminar at Photokina 2008 in Cologne."

Odd...Is Kodak releasing another commercial sensor, other than the 50MP?

Steve
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thsinar

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« Reply #131 on: July 08, 2008, 02:34:20 pm »

Except that we did clearly say that the product would be finished only in 2007, with the first demo units ready for delivery in Q2, for our distributors. Which proved to be wrong and later, admitted.

Thierry

Quote
Anyone happen to remember the time lag between the announcement of the Hy6 by Sinar at Photokina 2006(Sept. 06)and when they actually started shipping units in volume to actual customers?
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jecxz

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« Reply #132 on: July 08, 2008, 02:36:15 pm »

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In the latest issue of Hasselblad's "Victor" magazine, they are looking for 2009 Master's of Photography. That is open to ALL photographers of Medium & large format cameras, since it will be judged by a panel, including several major photographers, so it seems unbiased. THIS IS a great marketing strategy, IMHO. So gladiators/ditractors do enter the arena, all ten winners get to use H3DII/39 with any lens for 4months for free.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206446\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Are you telling me that you receive a printed version of Victor? Say it isn't so!

They probably canceled my subscription.
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SeanBK

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Hasselblad 50 MP announced
« Reply #133 on: July 08, 2008, 02:46:02 pm »

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Are you telling me that you receive a printed version of Victor? Say it isn't so!

They probably canceled my subscription.
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Yes, I received 2/2008 issue & I believe it is the current one, as Hasselblad's old magazine "Forum" & now the new one "Victor" do get published in arrear of the date. Thus 2/2008 means it will out at the end of second quarter of 08. Though they do ship it via UPS, only magazine that comes via UPS.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 02:54:33 pm by SeanBK »
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SeanBK

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« Reply #134 on: July 08, 2008, 02:50:08 pm »

Quote
Saw this posted at another site:

"Just recieved a mail from Hasselblad:

"(...)Hasselblad is also proud to announce the upcoming launch of a new 645 sensor. Full details on the 645 sensor can be had at Hasselblad's Future Technology seminar at Photokina 2008 in Cologne."

Odd...Is Kodak releasing another commercial sensor, other than the 50MP?

Steve
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Yes, it seems like it will be a new sensor, over & above 50MP. On a second thought it may not larger than 50MP, but larger pixels,The full e-mail is thus;
"Hasselblad announces new camera and sensor technology.
Introducing the new H3DII-50, our new H System flagship, featuring the new Kodak 50 Mpixel sensor, measuring 36×48mm, twice the physical size of the largest 35mm DSLR sensors. The H3DII-50 is designed to meet the exacting demands of high-end commercial photographers who require the ultimate in both image quality and performance. The H3DII-50 will be available for delivery in October. Hasselblad is also proud to announce the upcoming launch of a new 645 sensor. Full details on the 645 sensor can be had at Hasselblad's Future Technology seminar at Photokina 2008 in Cologne."
« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 06:13:17 pm by SeanBK »
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hubell

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« Reply #135 on: July 08, 2008, 03:13:22 pm »

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Yes, it seems like it will be a new sensor, over & above 50MP. The full e-mail is thus;
"Hasselblad announces new camera and sensor technology.
Introducing the new H3DII-50, our new H System flagship, featuring the new Kodak 50 Mpixel sensor, measuring 36×48mm, twice the physical size of the largest 35mm DSLR sensors. The H3DII-50 is designed to meet the exacting demands of high-end commercial photographers who require the ultimate in both image quality and performance. The H3DII-50 will be available for delivery in October. Hasselblad is also proud to announce the upcoming launch of a new 645 sensor. Full details on the 645 sensor can be had at Hasselblad's Future Technology seminar at Photokina 2008 in Cologne."

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I think you may be reading the words too literally, Sean. There MAY be another new sensor that will be announced at Photokina, but it would appear that it will be less than 50MP. Hasselblad would not be positioning the H3D50-II as its new "flagship" if it were announcing a bigger chip.
BTW, the same e-mail states that the new H3D50 will be ready to ship in October. I thought I had read Q1 2009.

The Hasselblad press release is  clearer than the e-mail we received. It does appear that there will be an announcement of a full sized 645 sensor, but, to me, it does not square with the H3D50 being Hasselblad's flagship DSLR. We will have to await further info. Perhaps Nick T can get to the bottom of it.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 06:20:42 pm by hcubell »
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RobertJ

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« Reply #136 on: July 08, 2008, 05:04:33 pm »

Then what does this mean?

From Hassy press release:

"An impressive 83 line-pairs/millimeter are resolved over the full, large area of
both today’s 36x48 millimeter sensor and of the upcoming larger 645 sensor."

No mention of megapixels in that sentence, just sensor size.  
« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 05:05:15 pm by T-1000 »
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #137 on: July 09, 2008, 04:45:56 am »

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More importantly, the is no evidence or valid theory that using somewhat more somewhat smaller pixels on the same sensor size has any significant disadvantage in visible noise levels or DR, once one allows for options like downsampling or other NR processing from higher pixel count raw files.

Actually, DR will not improve, no matter how many pixels you bin. Noise performance will though.

Using the same technology, a 22MP chip will always have better performance, per pixel. I'm hoping the old 22MP chip is being replaced by another sensor of similar resolution but using the newest technology to improve noise and speed. I hope Dalsa has some surprises for us too.
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BJL

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« Reply #138 on: July 09, 2008, 10:22:52 am »

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Actually, DR will not improve, no matter how many pixels you bin. Noise performance will though.
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I disagree: on-sensor binning or digital domain downsampling lowers the RMS noise level in the output pixels while not changing the maximum signal level, and that increases dynamic range, which is the ratio of those two values. In practical terms, less shadow noise with the same highlight handling is more DR.

In the simple illustrative case of 2x2 on-sensor binning on a monochrome sensor, the signal from each 2x2 bin is what you would have got with one bigger photosite in its place, including the higher DR expected from tat four times larger photosite area.


I remind you that film uses "one-bit photosites" (silver halide crystals) with only two output states (exposed or not exposed) so that all the DR of film comes from "dithering" or "visual averaging" when each rod or cone in the viewer's eye sees the combined "output" of a large number of such photosites. The often claimed finer tonal gradations of prints from larger film formats are a manifestation of the higher "print DR" achieved by getting the same sized print with a lower degree of enlargement, and thus dithering more the "raw chemical photosite data" of the negative.
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #139 on: July 09, 2008, 10:29:54 am »

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I disagree: on-sensor binning or digital domain downsampling lowers the RMS noise level in the output pixels while not changing the maximum signal level, and that increases dynamic range,
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OK we are talking at slight cross-purposes. I was isolating DR. If there is no noise, DR can't be improved with pixel binning. You are right that if there is noise, binning will slightly improve DR, but the extent depends on the nature of the noise.
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