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Author Topic: Do you still have issues with red gamut on HP Z310  (Read 5690 times)

bmclau

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Do you still have issues with red gamut on HP Z310
« on: July 02, 2008, 06:37:43 pm »

Hi

Do you still find problems printing saturated reds and low luminance reds on your Z3100?

I'm aware that in fine art papers and matte surfaces the color gamut will be reduced. ColorThink Pro clearly shows that when viewing the Z3100 profiles.

I'm more puzzled when I encounter similar issues when printing on Instant Dry Gloss (I know it's not the best glossy paper).  
What's even more bizarre is that the softproof is horrible: reds lose saturation, gradation and density. Even though I create adjustment layers to contradict this effect the result is unsatisfactory. (using the traditional workflow: Photoshop determines colors and no color management on the printer driver)

However, if I let the printer determine the colors the result is much better !! Do you have the same results? Is this a common problem no matter the print media? Do you think the problem is the quality of the profile (I’ve tried creating profiles with ProfileMaker and my Eye One Pro with similar results).

I would appreciate any input Z3100 owners might have.


P.S - Ernst Dinkla and Neil Snape seem to have thoroughly tested the printer. Could you, please give some input on this subject.


Thank you


Cláudio
« Last Edit: July 03, 2008, 12:16:18 pm by bmclau »
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Mussi_Spectraflow

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Do you still have issues with red gamut on HP Z310
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2008, 02:54:34 pm »

With the latest firmware the printer is about as good as its going to get. Hp is aware of the weakness of the printer in terms of it's red gamut on matte paper. They've brought the printer a long way from where it was when it first shipped, and I commend them for that, still the reality is that it is not as good as the epson in this one respect. There are some tricks, choosing the right media type is key, also different profiling packages will produce distinctly different results. The standard color center profiles are fairly decent. Profiler, which I usually prefer over ProfilerMaker, seems to produce profiles that push the red to orange, so I often use profiler for matte profiles on the Z3100. On glossy media I have nothing but good things to say about the HP gamut. Color think is a great tool but it still doesn't provide a complete picture of what the ink on paper results will be, especially with the "special sauce" built into some of the OEM profiles. That said there are areas where the epson gamut is slightly bigger and areas where the HP is bigger, on the X800 printers the HP had a fairly clear advantage on RC media, with the X880 it's less clear cut. It really depends on the image, I could find an image with specific high chroma greens and blues and say the HP trumps the Epson and then print an image with lots of rich dark reds and yellows and find significant advantages with the Epson. In all I'm still happy with the Z3100. I've installed them as proofers and the do a great job, the onboard spectro is a big perk and the spot color coverage is very good. Personally I use them for photographic prints of satin papers, and B/W work so I couldn't ask for much more...and I really love the gloss enhancer. So I guess I'll say what I did a year or so ago, it really depends. I think the HP better targets certain criteria. That said Epson does a hell of a job at reaching nearly every market with a single printer.    Sorry I got a bit off topic.
Any way the profiling software, and the quality of the perceptual rendering varies quite a bit. The ID glossy is not my favorite paper but should give you good results. The standards stuff applies - updated FW, calibrate, profile - should give you good results. Something seems a bit off that your getting "much better" results with printer managed color. Sounds like there may be some settings amiss.
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dajaka

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Do you still have issues with red gamut on HP Z310
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2008, 03:27:52 pm »

This flies in the face of good color management but in desperation to get better rich reds on matte fine art paper I experimented with different profiles and found that using the built in HP Hahnemuehle Textured Fine Art Paper profile gave me much improved colors in that area and other colors didn't seem to suffer much.

I use the normal calibration and paper setup for whatever paper I'm using but just substitute the HPHTFAP profile.

Premier Velvet Fine Art seems to give me the best red color gamut for this type of paper with more subtle color variations in the red than most others.
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deelight

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Do you still have issues with red gamut on HP Z310
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2008, 04:19:46 am »

This is what I also found. I printed a large edition of fine art prints for an artist on HP Hahnemuehle FAP 310g. The reds were VERY good! A third of the print had dark red colors. I was extremely pleased with the quality in the reds and do not feel, that there is an issue with the reds anymore. I cannot comment on other papers though. Reds (and other colors aswell) were slightly adjusted in saturation and colorbalance to meet the original.

I print from OSX 10.4.9 and use the HP Photosmart Print Plugin for PSCS2, FW 6.0.0.8 on 44" non PS. Could not get a satisfiying quality from PSCS3, people said, there are some parts of the software of OSX or CS3 to be deleted and reinstalled, but that seemed too complicated and could destroy more than it helps.

However, I am very pleased on the reds right now.

Hope, that helps.

Best,

Clem
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Ernst Dinkla

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Do you still have issues with red gamut on HP Z310
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2008, 09:20:10 am »

Quote
Hi

Do you still find problems printing saturated reds and low luminance reds on your Z3100?

I'm aware that in fine art papers and matte surfaces the color gamut will be reduced. ColorThink Pro clearly shows that when viewing the Z3100 profiles.

I'm more puzzled when I encounter similar issues when printing on Instant Dry Gloss (I know it's not the best glossy paper). 
What's even more bizarre is that the softproof is horrible: reds lose saturation, gradation and density. Even though I create adjustment layers to contradict this effect the result is unsatisfactory. (using the traditional workflow: Photoshop determines colors and no color management on the printer driver)

However, if I let the printer determine the colors the result is much better !! Do you have the same results? Is this a common problem no matter the print media? Do you think the problem is the quality of the profile (I’ve tried creating profiles with ProfileMaker and my Eye One Pro with similar results).


Thank you
Cláudio
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

My customers and I have no complaints at all. I have used all kinds of profiles, the ones that the basic Z3100 profiler makes / several from different profile creators with the SpectroCam / the HP ones that can be downloaded and / right now I use APS with the Z3100 spectro. HPR + HPR bright white, HP ID Satin, and the color is good plus a perfect Dmax. Printing from Qimage with its CM on (for B&W I use another method with Qimage). Softproof looks alright to me but I'm not an advocate of soft proofing, I rather keep a proof print next to the thing that's reproduced.


Ernst Dinkla

Try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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bmclau

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Do you still have issues with red gamut on HP Z310
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2008, 09:45:25 am »

Thank you all for your input.

Don't get me wrong. I'm don't share the opinion that the Z3100 is a flawed printer. I'm perfectly satisfied with the gamut that the inkset provides and it is a great BW printer.

What I do find strange is that going by the book and using softproof on a duplicate image, followed by the adjustments to get the softproofed image as close to the original  is not yielding the best results, compared with the "dumb" method of letting the printer convert the colours (and I know I’m not double converting).

Could it be that the profile, in the non APS version, does not build a table big enough in this colour area. The problem not only affects saturation but also the smoothness of the transitions. It creates almost a bronzing effect on the gradation. Do you think it's related with total ink limit? Or linearization problems ?

 Best regards,

Cláudio
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Mark Potter

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Do you still have issues with red gamut on HP Z310
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2008, 10:16:18 am »

Quote
Thank you all for your input.

Don't get me wrong. I'm don't share the opinion that the Z3100 is a flawed printer. I'm perfectly satisfied with the gamut that the inkset provides and it is a great BW printer.

What I do find strange is that going by the book and using softproof on a duplicate image, followed by the adjustments to get the softproofed image as close to the original  is not yielding the best results, compared with the "dumb" method of letting the printer convert the colours (and I know I’m not double converting).

Could it be that the profile, in the non APS version, does not build a table big enough in this colour area. The problem not only affects saturation but also the smoothness of the transitions. It creates almost a bronzing effect on the gradation. Do you think it's related with total ink limit? Or linearization problems ?

 Best regards,

Cláudio
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205484\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I cannot tell you why but I get the same results when letting the printer determine the colors on my Z3100. I was also using this on two other smaller Epson printers that I have, it always produces a better print. My monitor is calibrated and so is the printer and paper.

I spent last Saturday profiling some paper and making test strips. The canned profile ended up working better than the profile that I made but I generated about 8 tests, soft proofing in PS and letting PS determine colors and the best was simply letting the printer determine colors...

I talked with owner of a printing company that I know with 5-6 large format printers of various sizes and he told me that I should ALWAYS let the printer determine the colors because it can do a better job than PS? He said it was because of the 12 inks that the printer can manage them better then PS?

I'm sure I'm doing something wrong in the workflow somewhare as everything I have read and the Fine Art Video that I watched from here said not to do it this way?...but it works better than letting PS manage colors and these no fiddling around with adjustment layers...
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Ernst Dinkla

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Do you still have issues with red gamut on HP Z310
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2008, 10:19:05 am »

Quote
Thank you all for your input.

Don't get me wrong. I'm don't share the opinion that the Z3100 is a flawed printer. I'm perfectly satisfied with the gamut that the inkset provides and it is a great BW printer.

What I do find strange is that going by the book and using softproof on a duplicate image, followed by the adjustments to get the softproofed image as close to the original  is not yielding the best results, compared with the "dumb" method of letting the printer convert the colours (and I know I’m not double converting).

Could it be that the profile, in the non APS version, does not build a table big enough in this colour area. The problem not only affects saturation but also the smoothness of the transitions. It creates almost a bronzing effect on the gradation. Do you think it's related with total ink limit? Or linearization problems ?

 Best regards,

Cláudio
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Cláudio.

Have you tested the OEM profile for ID Premium Gloss and checked what that delivered in printing and the softproof in your setup?  Latest media presets, firmware etc ?

Neil had some remarks on the softproof side of profiles, see:

[a href=\"http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t22589.html]http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/lo...php/t22589.html[/url]

near bottom page.


Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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walter.sk

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Do you still have issues with red gamut on HP Z310
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2008, 12:14:06 pm »

I'm very happy with the reds as well as other colors with profiles made on the Z3100 with APS for HP Premium ID Satin and Epson Premium Luster.  I'm not sure which I favor yet, and both give excellent results.

I tried several matte papers, and the best results I've gotten were very good indeed, on Bergger Pn31 paper, which unfortunately comes only in sheets, and HP Hahnemuhle Textured Fine Art Paper.  For moody shots, I love the texture and look of both papers.  However, the APS-generated profiles for both of these papers have poorer results in the deep reds than do the Bergger canned profile and the HP canned profile for their papers.

Using the HP profile for the Hahnemule Textured FAP gives a stunningly good range of color and saturation for a matte paper.  I have not yet tried the HP Hahnemuhle Smooth Fine Art Paper, but I assume it will be as good.  Too bad these papers are 3 times the cost of the Premium Luster and Premium ID Satin.

I tried the Epson Enhanced Matte paper with an APS profile.  It has too small a gamut, and despite my best efforts to adjust the soft proof before printing, I got little splotches of unacceptable color in the oranges and dark yellows.  YucK!
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howseth

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Do you still have issues with red gamut on HP Z310
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2008, 01:04:35 pm »

I have been gettiing a satisfactory print color match soft proofing with my non-APS Z3100. The results have been very good on my main paper - Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Satin, (as well as on the other paper, I sometimes use, Cranes Silver Rag). The reds have been printing fine for my work.

I am using Photoshop CS3, and a Mac with Tiger OSX 10.4.11

Howard
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Ernst Dinkla

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Do you still have issues with red gamut on HP Z310
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2008, 03:04:31 pm »

Quote
I tried the Epson Enhanced Matte paper with an APS profile.  It has too small a gamut, and despite my best efforts to adjust the soft proof before printing, I got little splotches of unacceptable color in the oranges and dark yellows.  YucK!
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


What media preset did you use for EEM ? It has been discussed here before and with some care (drying time) it can handle the Litho-Realistic Matte media preset which delivers a nice gamut with a custom APS profile IMHO. There's a profile for EEM + the LRM media preset on the Wiki site.


Ernst Dinkla

Try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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dkeyes

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Do you still have issues with red gamut on HP Z310
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2008, 03:10:39 pm »

Cláudio,
I've got an ID gloss profile made with my APS. If you want to try it to see if it makes a difference let me know.
- Doug
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Roscolo

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Do you still have issues with red gamut on HP Z310
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2008, 04:48:52 pm »

I never saw a problem with reds with my z3100. Been printing for over a year and everything is just as good now as when I started.
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neil snape

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Do you still have issues with red gamut on HP Z310
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2008, 02:44:59 am »

If nothing has changed; on essentially rag matte media with thin coatings such as Hahnemuhle Photo Rag, Sommerset, some other FA matte textured media, the APS profiles will actually be a bit too blue -red in the shadows. The profile is trying to compensate for what the eye doesn't see the same. The built in profiler by HP has effectively , less grid points, more smoothing thus smoothing of the data in the tables creating less accurate but smoother profiles in the bottom end of the profiles. Since the printing range Dmax and gamut is reduced on matte there is in fact more room for error over photo substrates. I think APS errs towards a blue red shadow on these media types, BUT, on more substantial coated matte media such as Epson Enhanced Matte, HP Smooth Fine Art, they become much closer in proximity between profiles both APS and Easy.

The reds on say Photo Rag are less stellar than Epson in the shadows, but as soon as you go to the optimised HP Smooth FA, they are in most part accurate and subtle making prints for display with equally high marks on appearance than any other. Let's say that if you have an image with a lot of saturated reds, red with dark shadows,  the type that should be printed on photo material, yet it's going on matte anyway.  That image would be better in the reds on Epson than Canon or HP.
But, let's take some images with extended greens, blues. Same type of image that should be printed on photo material. This will quite surely be better on HP, and Canon ( before the 7900 9900 come out....)


Where it stands is only on some images will there be some difficulty printing on less than optimal media. For the most part there really isn't any "real" problem of printing reds on the Z.

As for Printer manages Color>   You don't really want to do that if you can avoid it. The reason being that the printer doesn't use ICC transformations if used. The printer actually uses LUT's . IF it is more pleasing, maybe I should have looked further into it, but the results were not accurate enough for me. IF your prints on photo media are better with Printer Manages Color, there is something amiss in the workflow with profiles.


As far as soft proofing goes, I agree , there always has been too much error with the HP Vivera pigments and the return tables to RGB. The good news (consolation?) is the prints always look better than the screen soft proof. I have no idea why HP didn't take me serious on that one. Perhaps they think it is trivial. Fact is most photographers now rely on soft proofing, if only to try new profiles, media, or just checking the print before risking an expensive sheet of media.
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walter.sk

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Do you still have issues with red gamut on HP Z310
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2008, 12:19:12 pm »

Quote from: Ernst Dinkla,Jul 4 2008, 02:04 PM
What media preset did you use for EEM ? It has been discussed here before and with some care (drying time) it can handle the Litho-Realistic Matte media preset which delivers a nice gamut with a custom APS profile IMHO. There's a profile for EEM + the LRM media preset on the Wiki site.
Ernst Dinkla

I used the Litho-Realistic Matte as the paper type, and then generated the APS profile. I did not do anything to change the default drying time for that preset, though.  It was also before I installed the most recent firmware, so maybe it's time for another try, before my roll of Enhanced Matte falls apart from old age.   I'll also try the profile from the Wiki site.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2008, 12:19:46 pm by walter.sk »
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eronald

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Do you still have issues with red gamut on HP Z310
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2008, 09:53:23 am »

I would be willing to make Atkinson 5000 patch profiles for these printers using my i1 or DTP70 if anyone is interested.

Edmund

Quote
I cannot tell you why but I get the same results when letting the printer determine the colors on my Z3100. I was also using this on two other smaller Epson printers that I have, it always produces a better print. My monitor is calibrated and so is the printer and paper.

I spent last Saturday profiling some paper and making test strips. The canned profile ended up working better than the profile that I made but I generated about 8 tests, soft proofing in PS and letting PS determine colors and the best was simply letting the printer determine colors...

I talked with owner of a printing company that I know with 5-6 large format printers of various sizes and he told me that I should ALWAYS let the printer determine the colors because it can do a better job than PS? He said it was because of the 12 inks that the printer can manage them better then PS?

I'm sure I'm doing something wrong in the workflow somewhare as everything I have read and the Fine Art Video that I watched from here said not to do it this way?...but it works better than letting PS manage colors and these no fiddling around with adjustment layers...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205489\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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