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Author Topic: Does Higher Bit-depth Matter?  (Read 24928 times)

hdomke

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Does Higher Bit-depth Matter?
« on: July 01, 2008, 11:18:09 pm »

This Medium Format forum has had a lot of discussion (and disagreement) on the value of higher bit-depth on Medium Format Cameras. To help clarify the issue, I asked a digital imaging expert: Tim Grey. He posted his answer in his Digital Darkroom Questions (DDQ) e-mail today.

Conclusion: There is a difference with higher bit-depth Medium Format Digital Backs, but it tends to be very subtle, and digital 35mm SLRs continue to improve and narrow the gap

Here is the full text of his answer from the July 1 DDQ:
Images from a medium format digital back do indeed have the potential for greater dynamic range in the print. Of course, that potential isn't always realized, but in terms of the information captured, in a general sense medium format digital will still exceed the capabilities of digital SLR cameras to some extent.

The bit-depth is certainly a contributing factor, but just because you have higher bit-depth doesn't mean you necessarily have greater dynamic range. For example, you could theoretically use the imaging sensor from a very old digital camera that wasn't able to capture any real dynamic range (think in terms of a really old mobile phone camera) and update the analog-to-digital (A/D) converter to create a 16-bit per channel file from that image. You now have high-bit data (sort of), but it is based on information captured from the sensor that is lacking significantly. The point here is that the bit-depth is really more about the size of the container for the image data, and isn't necessarily indicative of the data you are actually capturing. Dynamic range is the measure of the difference between the brightest and darkest values that can be recorded.

In order to understand the nature of the data you're capturing, you need to look at the imaging sensor itself, not just the way the data captured by the sensor is being converted. There are a variety of factors that affect dynamic range in an imaging sensor, but one of the specifications you can look at to get a sense of the relative dynamic range capabilities of an imaging sensor are is the size of the individual pixels on the imaging sensor (the pixel pitch), which is measured in microns. Larger photodetectors on the imaging sensor are capable of capturing more electrical charge (which is how the light it "sees" is recorded), and thus are able to capture a broader range between "empty" (minimum value) and "full" (maximum value). That translates into greater dynamic range (generally speaking), so in general larger photodiodes are a good thing (from the perspective of dynamic range and noise anyway), within reason of course. And of course for a given sensor size (physical dimensions) as you increase resolution you reduce the size of the individual photodetectors, so this is always something the camera manufacturers (and imaging sensor manufacturers) have to contend with.

To give you a sense of the potential of medium format imaging sensors, it can be helpful to consider the relative size of the photodetectors in real terms. One of the top professional digital SLR cameras is the Canon EOS 1Ds Mark III, which offers 21.1 megapixels and has a pixel pitch of 6.4 microns. The PhaseOne P25+ digital bak, which offers an effective resolution of 22 megapixels, has a pixel pitch of 9 microns. While these are both incredibly small sizes, as you can see the medium format digital back has much larger photodetectors in relative terms. At the lower end, a typical point-and-shoot digital camera with 7.1 megapixels has a pixel pitch of about 1.9 microns.

Of course, when it comes to the print there are other limitations. You can have all the bit-depth and dynamic range in the world, and if you're printer can't reproduce all those values the data isn't really worth much in the context of that print. So, while a medium format digital back is most certainly going to give you more information in your digital captures, today's printers aren't really capable of reproducing that information to the extent that it makes a significant difference in the final print. There is a difference, but it tends to be very subtle, and digital SLRs continue to improve and narrow the gap. There's no question there are inherent benefits to the imaging sensor used in a medium format digital back, but technology is developing to the point that the benefit is relatively modest, especially when viewed in context of the pace of change in digital photography over the last ten years.


-----
Note: there are other threads that touch on this topic, but they started to meander and were not as specific. This topic deals just with bit-depth. Here are links to the other topics:

RAW files: 1Ds3 and Phase P30+

Medium Format vs 35mm - Just More Pixels?

Can Stitching 1DsMk3 files = Med Format Quality
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Anthony R

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Does Higher Bit-depth Matter?
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2008, 12:30:27 am »

whatever.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2008, 12:35:14 am by Anthony R »
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TMARK

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Does Higher Bit-depth Matter?
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2008, 12:37:16 am »

Quote
whatever.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204931\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You know, I think I'm going to go to Papaya King tomorrow for the Depression Special.  I really like their hot dogs.  I might also hit Century and buy a new belt.
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snickgrr

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Does Higher Bit-depth Matter?
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2008, 01:00:09 am »

Quote
You know, I think I'm going to go to Papaya King tomorrow for the Depression Special.  I really like their hot dogs.  I might also hit Century and buy a new belt.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204932\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


15 minutes and I'm still ROTFLMAO!
« Last Edit: July 02, 2008, 01:02:14 am by snickgrr »
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TMARK

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Does Higher Bit-depth Matter?
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2008, 01:09:45 am »

Quote
15 minutes and I'm still ROTFLMAO!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204934\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

My pleasure!  I aim to please.
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jimgolden

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Does Higher Bit-depth Matter?
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2008, 01:48:34 am »

dood - bit depth doesn't matter at all. just buy a 1Ds and be done with it...
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josayeruk

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Does Higher Bit-depth Matter?
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2008, 04:19:16 am »

Yaaaaawn!  

It misses the point entirely.  The benefit of having a 16-Bit MFDB is that the file is more elastic / flexible.

Also far improved on long exposures.

I *think* (note sarcasm) it has been recommended before to go out and take some pictures.  Work with them, then you will see.

If you don't, it doesn't matter, therefore you are comfortable with the 35mm choice.

Ok?

Jo S.x
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Graham Mitchell

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Does Higher Bit-depth Matter?
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2008, 05:34:09 am »

Quote
It misses the point entirely.  The benefit of having a 16-Bit MFDB is that the file is more elastic / flexible.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204963\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Exactly. Plus I wouldn't even trust that testers know how to switch off default curves in their raw processing apps.
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Murray Fredericks

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Does Higher Bit-depth Matter?
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2008, 06:49:18 am »

Quote
The point here is that the bit-depth is really more about the size of the container for the image data


You can have all the bit-depth and dynamic range in the world, and if you're printer can't reproduce all those values the data isn't really worth much in the context of that print.


today's printers aren't really capable of reproducing that information to the extent that it makes a significant difference in the final print.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204921\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Exactly - the container is larger and when you know how to fill it up (as most owners of MFDB's would do) you have more to play with. No one uses a file without a curve or adjustment applied...

It's a fair assumption that those who have shelled out big bucks for a MFDB system will not be cutting corners with their printing processes either.

Getting that last bit of a quality, only available at the 'top' of any endeavour is always going to require  more resources for less return - it's why fewer people go there. The differences may be subtle but significant. Often that difference only appears 'subtle' at first glance...
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amsp

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Does Higher Bit-depth Matter?
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2008, 07:36:20 am »

Wow, what are you on some sort of ridiculous crusade to justify your own unwillingness/inability to invest in a DB? The problem is that if you have ever worked a file hard in post from both 35mm and a DB the difference is blatantly obvious. So who are you trying to convince here, yourself perhaps? I use both on a daily basis and have no delusion that one can substitute the other, instead I embrace the pros and cons and use them for different things.

Enough of this BS already.
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ixpressraf

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Does Higher Bit-depth Matter?
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2008, 08:21:43 am »

...and in the end it's always about the money... as a good man used to say; " if you have to ask for the price, it is to expensive for you" and one can always find a reason not to spent a certain amount of money. i think it is useless to keep on answering those questions: all what there is to say is more than a million times written....    
 
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witz

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Does Higher Bit-depth Matter?
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2008, 08:35:38 am »

I just love the cause and effect with web forums these days... a poster takes the time to serve up some banter on a "grey area" topic and most viewers either walk out of the room yelling BS or they instantly send back an insult. Reminds me of the senate on planet of the apes.

If you don't have something good to say... then just don't say anything.

I own both a 1ds3 and a p45+V and do notice a difference in final image quality as well.... but each "system" has it's merits... i.e I can't get the look (love) of the 85mm f1.2 wide open on the 1ds3 when I use the MFDB.... Likewise, I can't get the crispness (high detail) of the hyper focal abilities of the MFDB stopped down around f16 when I shoot with the 1ds3.

I also can't match the wide angle of view with wide lens' on the 1ds3 when I choose the "V" MFDB.

But..... I can say that when I use the 1ds3 as it should be used ( raw to 16 bit tiff & good glass... + proper technique ) it closes the gap considerably from the 1ds2 to MFDB.

As to higher bit depth mattering?.... If you are striving for the best image you can capture today? YES!

If your shooting technique right for the situation and nail your exposure without having to adjust much in post?.... NOT REALLY.

If you tend to do "looks" in post that require you to mangle your file around a bit ( like the infamous Dragon look )..... YES

If you shoot reproduction work of paintings.... YES

If you shoot hyper-real landscape.... YES

If you shoot fine art..... ( dirty look ) NO.... ( clean hyper-real look ) YES


To quote the Beatles.... "it's getting better all the time"
« Last Edit: July 02, 2008, 08:46:32 am by witz »
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MichaelEzra

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Does Higher Bit-depth Matter?
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2008, 09:34:35 am »

if you had only 1 bit - whould that make a difference?
If your answer is 'yes', you should understand why 16 is better than 8.

if your answer is 'no', well, use 1 bit then or ask yourself if 0 bits would make a difference instead.
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Tim Gray

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Does Higher Bit-depth Matter?
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2008, 01:56:02 pm »

There was a relatively technical article recently referenced in one of the ETTR threads and my recollection is that at some point, at around 12-14 bits, noise renders any "larger container" superfluous, at least with today's AD converters.
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bjanes

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Does Higher Bit-depth Matter?
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2008, 02:07:55 pm »

Quote
This Medium Format forum has had a lot of discussion (and disagreement) on the value of higher bit-depth on Medium Format Cameras. To help clarify the issue, I asked a digital imaging expert: Tim Grey. He posted his answer in his Digital Darkroom Questions (DDQ) e-mail today.

Conclusion: There is a difference with higher bit-depth Medium Format Digital Backs, but it tends to be very subtle, and digital 35mm SLRs continue to improve and narrow the gap

Here is the full text of his answer from the July 1 DDQ:
Images from a medium format digital back do indeed have the potential for greater dynamic range in the print. Of course, that potential isn't always realized, but in terms of the information captured, in a general sense medium format digital will still exceed the capabilities of digital SLR cameras to some extent.

To give you a sense of the potential of medium format imaging sensors, it can be helpful to consider the relative size of the photodetectors in real terms. One of the top professional digital SLR cameras is the Canon EOS 1Ds Mark III, which offers 21.1 megapixels and has a pixel pitch of 6.4 microns. The PhaseOne P25+ digital bak, which offers an effective resolution of 22 megapixels, has a pixel pitch of 9 microns. While these are both incredibly small sizes, as you can see the medium format digital back has much larger photodetectors in relative terms. At the lower end, a typical point-and-shoot digital camera with 7.1 megapixels has a pixel pitch of about 1.9 microns.

[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The responses thus far to thread have been largely pathetic and have provided no objective information. Tim Grey's essay is good, but he too provides no objective information.

Dynamic range and useful bit depth is limited by noise, and increased bit depth will not be helpful if the useful levels in the raw image are obscured by noise. A good analysis of this matter is presented by [a href=\"http://theory.uchicago.edu/~ejm/pix/20d/tests/noise/index.html]EJ Martin.[/url]

Discussion with presentation of additional data is presented in a DPReview thread listed below. The discussion is concerning the Nikon D3, whose pixel size is 8.4 microns, slightly smaller than the 9 microns of the referenced 22 megapixel medium format camera, but larger than the pixel size of the P45+ 39 MP back (6.8 microns). The same principles apply.

DP Review Thread
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rainer_v

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Does Higher Bit-depth Matter?
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2008, 03:03:39 pm »

Quote
You know, I think I'm going to go to Papaya King tomorrow for the Depression Special.  I really like their hot dogs.  I might also hit Century and buy a new belt.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204932\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

 me, beeing back in gauting ( closed to munich/ germany )  just have eaten a great steak with
rice at the schlosscafe.

having my back resting in my bag, so i cant discuss about its 16bit qualities.
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rainer viertlböck
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TMARK

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Does Higher Bit-depth Matter?
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2008, 03:21:31 pm »

Quote
me, beeing back in gauting ( closed to munich/ germany )  just have eaten a great steak with
rice at the schlosscafe.

having my back resting in my bag, so i cant discuss about its 16bit qualities.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205048\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That sounds fantastic!  My Depression Special was really good, and really cheap.  I'm sure it wasn't as good as your steak, but man, there is something about a good hot dog that makes me really happy.  Last time I was in Munich I had a great lunch of Weisswurst, spicy brown mustard, and a litre of Warsteiner.  Man that was good!
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Anthony R

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Does Higher Bit-depth Matter?
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2008, 03:22:00 pm »

Quote
me, beeing back in gauting ( closed to munich/ germany )  just have eaten a great steak with
rice at the schlosscafe.

having my back resting in my bag, so i cant discuss about its 16bit qualities.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205048\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Mmmmm...mmm. Just had a nice salad with a tad too much feta.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2008, 03:23:16 pm by Anthony R »
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Anthony R

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Does Higher Bit-depth Matter?
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2008, 03:25:42 pm »

Beer and food pairing. Interesting article http://www.allaboutbeer.com/features/243beerandfood.html

"The flavor hook is the part of the beer’s flavor and aroma that matches, harmonizes or accentuates the flavors in your food. When the flavors meet on your tongue, they "recognize" each other and this creates a harmony.

Sometimes, rather than harmony, you’re setting up a pleasant contrast. Beer can have flavors of caramel, coffee, chocolate, bread, bananas, limes, herbs, smoke or raspberries–there’s a lot here to work with."
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Mort54

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Does Higher Bit-depth Matter?
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2008, 03:29:52 pm »

Quote
There was a relatively technical article recently referenced in one of the ETTR threads and my recollection is that at some point, at around 12-14 bits, noise renders any "larger container" superfluous, at least with today's AD converters.
You can't simply compare DSLRs and MFDBs by bit depth, or say that anything beyond 12 to 14 bits is meaningless - as with most things in life, it's more complicated than that. People who want to boil this debate down to simple black and white answers are only deluding themselves.

A/Ds come in various quality levels, depending on cost and sampling rate, among other things. You can certainly get very high sampling rate 16-bit A/Ds, suitable for imaging applications, with 2 to 4 bits of noise, i.e. the A/D itself generates 2 to 4 bits of noise, leaving 12 to 14 bits of real, noise-free data (obviously any noise in the signal being sampled by the A/D just gets passed along, along with the additional noise contributed by the A/D itself). These are relatively expensive, however. Lower cost A/Ds typically generate more bits of noise, delivering fewer bits of noise-free data. You can get up to 24 bit A/Ds with more moderate sampling rates with similar noise capabilities, i.e. you get 20 to 22 bits of real, noise free data (by noise free, I mean noise contributed by the A/D itself - any image sensor output will almost certainly have plenty of noise in the lower bits if you are sampling it at 24 bits).

So if you are going to argue the merits of bit depth, the first thing you have to ask is what is the quality of the A/Ds you are using. All 14-bit A/Ds or 16-bit A/Ds are not created equal. I don't have any hard data to back this up, but I'm pretty sure all of the new 14-bit DSLRs are using actual 14-bit A/Ds, which means they are getting, at best, 10 to 12 bits of real, noise-free data, assuming they used expensive low noise A/Ds. Furthermore, I believe that at least some of the MFDBs are using more expensive 16-bit A/Ds (and maybe even higher bit depths), and downsampling to 14-bits (throwing away the noisiest bits), and then saving those 14-bits as 16-bit RGB values (a bit confusing, I know). If true, this means MFDBs are getting 12 to 14 bits of real, noise free data (or more, if they are using high quality higher bit depth A/Ds, and then truncating off the lower bits for storage as 16-bit RGB).

Given the price differential between DSLRs and MFDBs, I also suspect DSLRs are using lower priced, and hence noisier A/Ds, while the more expensive MFDBs can afford to use higher cost, and hence less noisy A/Ds. This is simply guesswork on my part, but it seems reasonable. So again, not all A/Ds are created equal. I find it very plausible that the higher cost MFDBs are using more expensive, lower noise A/Ds in their processing path than the DSLRs are.

Anyway, my point is that making a simplistic argument that 12-14 bits is as high as you can go is just that - simplistic. It certainly doesn't take into account the parts budget that the designer has to work with, and the quality of the parts he is forced to use for cost reasons, or the quality of the parts he can afford to use because he is designing them into a higher priced product. In other words, part of the reason MFDBs are so expensive is that they use higher quality, lower noise components (of course, there are economies of scale, etc, but parts cost is also a factor).

And there are a host of other noise sources that have to be accounted for, in addition to sensor noise and A/D noise. There's amplifier noise, and power circuit noise, and coupling noise. All of these are price sensitive - the higher your parts budget, the lower noise parts you can afford to use. And most of these get worse as temperatures rise, so your camera or back has to have good thermal management and heat dissipation to get the best out of the equipment.

So as I said at the beginning - You can't simply compare items by their bit-depth, or say that 12 to 14 bits is the effective limit of what you can have. It simply isn't so.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2008, 03:42:27 pm by Mort54 »
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