HP Matte Proofing, or HP Proofing Matte?

[ed kelley]

I have been doing a bit of color correction work for replicating my wife's paintings and I had been using HP Matte Litho Realistic with excellent results, but even though my monitors are calibrated, it still takes a fair amount of actual print samples to get it right. So, in the process of trying to save money and materials, I bought a roll of cheaper HP Proofing Matte Paper, Q7896A.

I've been through the printer calibration AND created an ICC profile for this paper, but the results lean toward cyan. I'm printing from Photoshop CS3. In the PSCS3 print dialogue (win xp pro) I use the printer profile of "HP Designjet Z3100, HP Proofing Matte" which is the same name that the HP Printer Utility uses to describe this paper.

However, when I go to "Page Setup..." and enter the HP Designjet Z3100 44in Photo Document Properties dialog, the only paper that remotely matches is "HP Matte Proofing Paper." So, even though the words "Matte" and "Proofing" are reversed, is this the same paper??? Haven't been in touch with HP support, but couldn't find a thing on their site.

Also--in the PSCS3 print preview window, the paper color of shown in the background has a bluish/cyan cast to it, indicating to me that something is amiss here. However, when soft-proofing in Photoshop, the color appears to be accurate. I'm wondering is the name confusion causing this problem in the printer driver or printer utility itself? Seems unlikely, since I don't have any other choice, except the generic "Proofing Matte Paper."

Oddly enough, when soft-proofing on screen, using the custom proof setup, I have a choice of both the HP Proofing Matte Paper and the HP Matte Proofing Paper, and they both are nearly, if not the same, when soft-proofing them.

After having restored the factory ICC profile for HP Proofing Matte Paper, I find I'm no better off.

If anyone has a thought on this issue, I would love to hear it.
Thanks
Ed

[neil snape]

Not sure if I'm reading clearly. The Print window in CS3 shows the profile and paper white simulation. In Soft Proofing, you can select it but it's not on by default.
I'm not impressed by the Print window in CS3. I totally ignore it. IF the paper has optical brightners, it will show up blue in the print window with preview matching on if your image is in a 6500 K source profile/working profile and your paper is D50/5000 K the paper white will be very blue due to previewing a white of 6500 on a paper at 5000 K.

[rdonson]

Ed,

Yes, it appears as though HP generally refers to the paper as HP Proofing Matte paper (Q1968A) except on their website where its called HP Matte Proofing paper.  Looking at the specs that HP has for the paper it would seem that with a brightness of 100 it probably has OBAs.  Neil's explanation sounds logical.  

Maybe someone else is using this paper and can comment on the soft proofing with the profile.

[ed kelley]

Not sure if I'm reading clearly. The Print window in CS3 shows the profile and paper white simulation. In Soft Proofing, you can select it but it's not on by default.
I'm not impressed by the Print window in CS3. I totally ignore it. IF the paper has optical brightners, it will show up blue in the print window with preview matching on if your image is in a 6500 K source profile/working profile and your paper is D50/5000 K the paper white will be very blue due to previewing a white of 6500 on a paper at 5000 K.
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I usually don't put much stock in either the CS3 print preview window or the HP print preview in terms of color (I just use the HP preview to check my setup before printing.)  However, this is the first time I've had a problem with the print color being shifted toward the paper color shown in the print preview, so I figure there is some connection there, especially when the CS3 print preview is usually fairly accurate.

When soft proofing (meaning using the paper profile on-screen, inside CS3) I do not see the color shift toward cyan that is being printed on the paper.  I do have my monitors profiled for 6500 (Gamma 2.2)

So, if the paper has optical brighteners, and it shows up as blue in the print window, how do I overcome this to make it print properly?  I mean, I assumed that by profiling the paper using the Z3100 spectro and creating a brand new ICC profile, I should be fairly spot on, but none of that seems to work.  In addition, I get the same results from the factory ICC, so that tells me the spectro in the z3100 is not at fault, unless the optical brighteners are throwing it off some way.

Surely I shouldn't have to go so far as to reprofile my monitors based on 5000K?!?!  Also, I really feel I need to address the "matte proofing" vs. "proofing matte" semantics in case that is part of the problem.

Thanks for help past and future!
Ed

[ed kelley]

Ed,

Yes, it appears as though HP generally refers to the paper as HP Proofing Matte paper (Q1968A) except on their website where its called HP Matte Proofing paper.  Looking at the specs that HP has for the paper it would seem that with a brightness of 100 it probably has OBAs.  Neil's explanation sounds logical. 

Maybe someone else is using this paper and can comment on the soft proofing with the profile.
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Ron,
You are referring to Q1968A, but the box of "HP Proofing Matte Paper" I have says Q7896A.  I think the difference is only the size (18" as opposed to 24")  Whatever, I can find no downloadable ICC profiles on the HP website.  I'm still curious as to the discrepancy in the naming of the paper.

And, as in my reply to Neil, I'm at a loss to know how to deal with the color shift (caused by the optical brighteners?)  For me it kind of defeats the whole purpose of using it for proofing!
Thank you!
Ed

[rdonson]

Ed,

This HP website shows them as the same paper just different sizes.

I hate to put words into Neil's mouth but I think he's implying that the profiles aren't that good due to the OBAs.  If they print comes out without the cyan cast then I would consider going back and editing the softproof portion of the profile in APS or another tool.

[ed kelley]

Ed,

This HP website shows them as the same paper just different sizes.

I hate to put words into Neil's mouth but I think he's implying that the profiles aren't that good due to the OBAs.  If they print comes out without the cyan cast then I would consider going back and editing the softproof portion of the profile in APS or another tool.
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Ron,

Compared to the various papers and canvas I have used, I do find the proofing matte to be quite a bit whiter.  Although I'm really a novice when it comes to the technical understanding of paper profiles, I suppose I can see where the OBA's might create a problem with ICC's by throwing off the spectro because of their reflectivity of certain wavelengths of light that make them appear brighter to the human eye.  As good as our technology is, there is no substitute for the human eye..at least not yet!

As a further response, let me say/ask this: do you mean that ICC's generated in the printer or factory default ICC's aren't that good?  Or maybe both of them?  And, the cyan cast is in the print, not in the soft-proofing, which looks fine.

When I get more time, I may work with this paper a bit more, but I've had it for now and must move on using the Matte Litho.

Besides, I found I had another problem with the HP Printer Utility that may or may not have prevented me from solving the matte proofing paper problem, which can be examined in this thread: [a href=\"http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=25868&hl=printer+utility]http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....printer+utility[/url]


If it's not one thing, it's another.

thanks for your thoughtful response,
ed

[rdonson]

Well, perhaps Neil or Ernst or someone else with deep knowledge about the spectro in the Z3100 and software can weigh in.  My understanding is that the spectro uses an LED light source and that OBAs shouldn't effect the spectro that much.  It may be the software that's creating the profile rather than the spectro itself.  

I use the APS and I've not really had much of a problem with profiles but perhaps that's because of the papers I've been using.