Leaf Aptus 65 for $13,995!

[pprdigital]

It is now official - Leaf is promoting the Aptus 65 now through July 31, 2008 for $13,995. As some remember, I had posted this earlier in the month, but had to pull it back as Leaf was not quite as ready to go as they thought. But it's now official.

What is behind it is hard to say - an answer to Hasselblad? A response to 35mm digital? Benevolence? Open for discussion. But one thing is for sure - it's a benefit to end users who are starting to see more affordable alternatives to 35mm than had previously been available.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php

[Mitchell Baum]

Hasselblad, now Leaf, isn't it Sinar's turn?

Things are shaking up! I wonder if cheaper top of the line Mega Pixel Backs will follow?

This is good for everybody. The manufacturers I believe are reacting to the same surge we're seeing in the forum. A lot of people want to get into MFDB, and if they lower their prices they can sell a lot of backs and cameras. And Phase/Mamiya made them do it.

My 2, not knowing what I'm talking about, cents.

Best,

Mitchell

[pprdigital]

Hasselblad, now Leaf, isn't it Sinar's turn?

Things are shaking up! I wonder if cheaper top of the line Mega Pixel Backs will follow?

This is good for everybody. The manufacturers I believe are reacting to the same surge we're seeing in the forum. A lot of people want to get into MFDB, and if they lower their prices they can sell a lot of backs and cameras. And Phase/Mamiya made them do it.

My 2, not knowing what I'm talking about, cents.

Best,

Mitchell
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203490\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Mitchell:

I believe there will always be a premium priced product category ($25K - $35K) that subsists along with the very capable, but limited in some way sub-$20K segment.

I don't see the Phase/Mamiya connection though, the P30 product has been priced in between the Leaf/Hasselblad equivalent product. I don't see that Phase/Mamiya had anything to do with it. I don't even credit the ZD, I feel it has too many compromises to offer an obvious alternative to high end 35mm systems, and as a result, only costs a small premium above them.

I believe 35mm has had more of an effect. Clearly if medium format doesn't offer a product that provides another level above 35mm, yet is priced at a reasonable delta above 35mm, unit growth will be difficult.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php

[James R Russell]

It is now official - Leaf is promoting the Aptus 65 now through July 31, 2008 for $13,995. As some remember, I had posted this earlier in the month, but had to pull it back as Leaf was not quite as ready to go as they thought. But it's now official.

What is behind it is hard to say - an answer to Hasselblad? A response to 35mm digital? Benevolence? Open for discussion. But one thing is for sure - it's a benefit to end users who are starting to see more affordable alternatives to 35mm than had previously been available.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203487\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Are these prices just a pre Photokina discount to get people to buy into a system, hoping a percentage of them will upgrade to the next, must have back?

After all, once the makers announce whatever it is they will announce, they'll offer even more specials like buy the 65S today, receive a new 65Super S when they are produced?

Basically, I'm curious on how the prices are set.  Is the recent Hasselblad discount of the 31mpx camera because they weren't selling, or was it just originally priced high to see if it would sell at that price point?

Somewhere from the transition from Analog to digital it seemed all of this changed and now were into an endless upgrade cycle.  Obviously film cameras evolved and so did film, but the buy in was much less when you changed a camera body and film prices pretty much were stable from year to year.




JR

[pprdigital]

Are these prices just a pre Photokina discount to get people to buy into a system, hoping a percentage of them will upgrade to the next, must have back?

After all, once the makers announce whatever it is they will announce, they'll offer even more specials like buy the 65S today, receive a new 65Super S when they are produced?

Basically, I'm curious on how the prices are set.  Is the recent Hasselblad discount of the 31mpx camera because they weren't selling, or was it just originally priced high to see if it would sell at that price point?

Somewhere from the transition from Analog to digital it seemed all of this changed and now were into an endless upgrade cycle.  Obviously film cameras evolved and so did film, but the buy in was much less when you changed a camera body and film prices pretty much were stable from year to year.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203503\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm really not sure what is behind the Leaf Aptus price drop. I believe the H3DII-31 was priced too close to the H3DII-39 initially. The overwhelming majority of my H3DII sales had been H3DII-39, not H3DII-31. There was a $7,000 delta between H3DII-39 and H3DII-31 pricing originally, compared to Leaf Aptus 75 at $29,999 and Leaf Aptus 65 at $17,995, a $12,000 difference. The majority of my Leaf sales have been Aptus 65.

It's easier to think of spending $33k, when you're looking at $27K, than it is thinking of spending $30K, when you're looking at $18K. That's why I see the H3DII-31 price drop as more of a correction with a little bit of sweetener tossed in. I don't know what is behind the Aptus 65 price drop.

What I do believe is that this establishes that there will be a consistent high quality medium format presence in the mid to upper teen market from all of the manufacturers going forward.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php

[James R Russell]

I'm really not sure what is behind the Leaf Aptus price drop. I believe the H3DII-31 was priced too close to the H3DII-39 initially. The overwhelming majority of my H3DII sales had been H3DII-39, not H3DII-31. There was a $7,000 delta between H3DII-39 and H3DII-31 pricing originally, compared to Leaf Aptus 75 at $29,999 and Leaf Aptus 65 at $17,995, a $12,000 difference. The majority of my Leaf sales have been Aptus 65.

It's easier to think of spending $33k, when you're looking at $27K, than it is thinking of spending $30K, when you're looking at $18K. That's why I see the H3DII-31 price drop as more of a correction with a little bit of sweetener tossed in. I don't know what is behind the Aptus 65 price drop.

What I do believe is that this establishes that there will be a consistent high quality medium format presence in the mid to upper teen market from all of the manufacturers going forward.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203567\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Medium format needs to do something that shocks the market.  Not these small incremental little changes of 20% more megapixels or a 7% better lcd. and 21% less costs.

The Red is a good business model because that is a camera that stunned the industry.

Once again, if medium format is to go forward it has to be a no excuse offer, not a semi readable lcd, not a almost high iso, not a almost available lens line, etc. etc.

When new cameras are introduced they need to look professional, the lens line available and extensive, the accessories off the scale.  It amazes me that not one new medium format camera has a right angle grip.    

If I spend twice the price of the dslr, I want  it to look like twice the price.

When a client comes to the set you want them to go wow, not say oh yea, my father-in-law has one of those.



Regardless, every medium format maker should go on the Red website and look at how they've come from zero to now and what they are offering.


JR

[Graham Mitchell]

Everyone is talking about the MF manufacturers not delivering enough but afaik they are partly at the mercy of the chips produced by Kodak and Dalsa.

I'm not sure it is fair to compare with Red because they use a small cheap sensor which apparently is very fast to read and refresh. Could be an off-the-shelf chip. Does anyone know?

What I'd like to see is either Kodak or Dalsa producing a new ground-breaking 645 30MP chip at a price which assumes much higher volumes, and I think it would be a great success.

[klane]

Everyone is talking about the MF manufacturers not delivering enough but afaik they are partly at the mercy of the chips produced by Kodak and Dalsa.

I'm not sure it is fair to compare with Red because they use a small cheap sensor which apparently is very fast to read and refresh. Could be an off-the-shelf chip. Does anyone know?

What I'd like to see is either Kodak or Dalsa producing a new ground-breaking 645 30MP chip at a price which assumes much higher volumes, and I think it would be a great success.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203613\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

+1

[thsinar]

hi James,

do you need an actual and sharp image of the Sinar Hy6?

This is the one which is delivered to customers:

[attachment=7219:attachment]

Best regards,
Thierry

JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203595\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[James R Russell]

Everyone is talking about the MF manufacturers not delivering enough but afaik they are partly at the mercy of the chips produced by Kodak and Dalsa.

I'm not sure it is fair to compare with Red because they use a small cheap sensor which apparently is very fast to read and refresh. Could be an off-the-shelf chip. Does anyone know?

What I'd like to see is either Kodak or Dalsa producing a new ground-breaking 645 30MP chip at a price which assumes much higher volumes, and I think it would be a great success.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203613\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This isn't about the chip, it's about the complete thought behind the Red system.

They've covered entry level autofocus to high end 5k files.

They have thier own lens line, cf cards, monitors, storage banks and accessories.

They built a system that will integrate with the standard PL mount lenses, Nikon and Canon and did it from scratch, not left overs from the past.

I don't know why medium format is where it is today, but they seem to be content on keeping their market marginal rather than step way up and increasing their share.  Somebody needs to walk in with a 1ds Mark III, drop it on the engineers lap and say make it 50% better in every respect, not just better file quality for a lot harder process.  (Also make it look professional, not cute).

Now I can write a long list of what my medium format backs will do that a dslr won't but I've yet to see any manufacturer say that in their advertising.

They always want to feature some guy who says, "I can send the images to my client overnight", like he just discovered the fact that digital photography exists.

(Overnight, hell I can send them when I'm shooting, of course I have to be hooked to 55 lbs of computer to do it.)

Once again, don't give me what I presently have at 10% better use for 15% less price.  Offer me something I can't live without.

I like the fact that there are professional camera makers whose thought is for me, not the 99.999% of the flicker photogrpahers, but I do know that medium format seems to be in the perpetual wait and see what's next process.

I also don't want it to be an all Canon world because those files and thier glass is making a lot of photography look the same.

And Graham, BTW, life ain't fair.

JR

[TMARK]

Everyone is talking about the MF manufacturers not delivering enough but afaik they are partly at the mercy of the chips produced by Kodak and Dalsa.

I'm not sure it is fair to compare with Red because they use a small cheap sensor which apparently is very fast to read and refresh. Could be an off-the-shelf chip. Does anyone know?

What I'd like to see is either Kodak or Dalsa producing a new ground-breaking 645 30MP chip at a price which assumes much higher volumes, and I think it would be a great success.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203613\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Edited to add that James beat me to it.

True, but its more than the chips, its the electrics surrounding the chips, the lcd, and most importantly the cameras themselves need to be improved, perhaps redesigned for digital imaging rather than shooting legacy formats.

[eronald]

I'm not sure it is fair to compare with Red because they use a small cheap sensor which apparently is very fast to read and refresh. Could be an off-the-shelf chip. Does anyone know?

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203613\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That must be why there are so many competitors to Red.

Edmund

[Graham Mitchell]

This isn't about the chip, it's about the complete thought behind the Red system.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203621\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I totally agree that the Red system is impressive. Must have been a very large investment, and more importantly they priced it to shake up the marketplace and did a good job first time around.

However, I still expect that the unit production cost of a MFDB is higher than a Red camera. The MF sensor chip prices are (at least a few years ago when I contacted Kodak) quite ridiculous. The 22MP chips were starting at $15K for one chip and getting down to about $6K for large quantities. So let's say a manufacturer committed to producing 1,000 22 MP MFDBs - they might be paying about $8K per sensor alone. This immediately pushes the retail price very high.

I'll bet the Red's sensor costs a max $2K, probably under $1K. So at $30K for the camera they can pay for a LOT more R&D. And they don't have any close competition, so the new product category is their for the taking (this won't last).

(Yes there is more to these things than the sensor but it is by far the most expensive single component).

If it were as easy as you guys are making out, you'd think that at least one of the MF players would have leapt ahead to grab market share.

[Graham Mitchell]

That must be why there are so many competitors to Red.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203629\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Let's see how things look in a few years.

[James R Russell]

I totally agree that the Red system is impressive. Must have been a very large investment, and more importantly they priced it to shake up the marketplace and did a good job first time around.

However, I still expect that the unit production cost of a MFDB is higher than a Red camera. The MF sensor chip prices are (at least a few years ago when I contacted Kodak) quite ridiculous. The 22MP chips were starting at $15K for one chip and getting down to about $6K for large quantities. So let's say a manufacturer committed to producing 1,000 22 MP MFDBs - they might be paying about $8K per sensor alone. This immediately pushes the retail price very high.

I'll bet the Red's sensor costs a max $2K, probably under $1K. So at $30K for the camera they can pay for a LOT more R&D. And they don't have any close competition, so the new product category is their for the taking (this won't last).

(Yes there is more to these things than the sensor but it is by far the most expensive single component).

If it were as easy as you guys are making out, you'd think that at least one of the MF players would have leapt ahead to grab market share.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203641\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

PhotoZ.  You have more brand loyalty than a NASCAR fan.

Nobody is saying they don't appreciate or even use these medium format backs.

In fact most of the people that contriubte here have proved it by dropping a lot of money.

Then again, when's your next purchase?  Better still how much are you willing to spend on a HY6 and a full set of new lenses?  Even more important if you move from whatever you have now to the very latest camera back and lens will it improve your art or your bottom line?

The only reason anybody brings up the Red as this is a compelte new system that came about in about 1/4 of the time medium format backs have existed and they seemed, by early reports, to have hit the market dead on and don't think for a second they don't have competition now, they just don't have competition in thier price range.

Arri, Viper and others have digital cinema cameras and all the Japanese manufacturers have some form of prosumer or ENG camera that covers some of the Red's territory.


Now why hasn't someone done with still cameras what Red is doing?  You got me.

I honestly think medium format is where it is today because of the historical mindset.  They based their business model  around high margins in the backs, a lot of dealer service and pretty much used other camera makers to sell thier profitable digital backs.  When Hasselblad closed the door, rather than start from scratch, they all just went looking for somebody else to make a camera and stick their logo on it and regardless of how good or bad the mamiy or HY6 is, they are still historical film camera systems with modifications.  

The Red isn't based on anything from the film days, except maybe a matte box.

Then again I don't really care, because I'm probably set for the next 5 years with my coffin cased contaxs.

JR

[E_Edwards]

It's the lack of competition that curses us.

If the likes of Canon or Nikon (or any other) came up with something similar or better quality than today's backs , but with crystal clear pictures at high ISO, fast frame rate, fantastic live view, portability in both weight and size and  uniquely fast tethering to something like Lightroom, detachable to fit other cameras and view cameras, and all at half the price of today's backs, our current manufacturers would either get their act together or they would go out of business.

What if they went out of business and we were only left with one big dominant brand. Would you mind? Is this a possible scenario?

Edward

[Mike W]

PhotoZ.  You have more brand loyalty than a NASCAR fan.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203655\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's one for the books :-)

I honestly think medium format is where it is today because of the historical mindset. They based their business model around high margins in the backs, a lot of dealer service and pretty much used other camera makers to sell thier profitable digital backs. When Hasselblad closed the door, rather than start from scratch, they all just went looking for somebody else to make a camera and stick their logo on it and regardless of how good or bad the mamiy or HY6 is, they are still historical film camera systems with modifications.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203655\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Very true, i've been waiting for some camera maker to shake things up for years.
A miniature 16mpx Mamiya ZD-style camera would be the coolest thing. Or something the size of a Mamiya 7 rangefinder. I've done some shoots with a H3D, and I was surprised at how much the thing weighed by the end of the day :-).
So yeah, maybe they should have reinvented the MF camera the day hasselblad closed the doors.

[BJNY]

Someone better be working on it.
We need some game changing thinking.

[DesW]

Someone better be working on it.
We need some game changing thinking.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203662\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Morning all,

Noting with interest how this thread swung to the RED influence--

You had better believe the influence the RED juggernaut is going to have on our working future.

We have the Camera inhouse and it is indeed impressive with Major US networks switching to the

 their setup for their top tier programs.

With the projected facility to be established in Las Vegas  and Jim's passion to take on the BIG

boys with chip sizes nearly double the existing current ones --an all in one still / Vid product to

rival MF is not far away.

Kudos to them

Des W

[mcfoto]

That's one for the books :-)
Very true, i've been waiting for some camera maker to shake things up for years.
A miniature 16mpx Mamiya ZD-style camera would be the coolest thing. Or something the size of a Mamiya 7 rangefinder. I've done some shoots with a H3D, and I was surprised at how much the thing weighed by the end of the day :-).
So yeah, maybe they should have reinvented the MF camera the day hasselblad closed the doors.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203661\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi
On the subject of the ZD camera,when I was talking to the Phase rep from Denmark I mentioned why not put the Phase know how into this camera & come out with a new model. I said the camera is already built. The two companies ae working together more closely these days. Somehow I don't think this will happen.
Denis