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Author Topic: new MF back for photokina  (Read 64575 times)

mcfoto

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« Reply #40 on: June 23, 2008, 10:26:00 pm »

Hi
I have heard that Phase will announce something in the fall of this year but nothing concrete. About the leaf shutter lenses I heard @ the PMA show in Brisbane that the 80 mm will be the first lens & will be at Photokina. Larger sensor MFD backs would not surprise me as it has been at least 3 years since the last sensor release from Kodax & Dalsa.
Thanks Denis
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Denis Montalbetti
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rethmeier

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« Reply #41 on: June 23, 2008, 10:46:29 pm »

Denis,
AFIK Dalsa and Kodak have not developed any new sensors.
I've visited both their info on their websites and there is no mention of anything new.
But I could be wrong.
Cheers,
Willem.

N.B Did you shoot the "Dark" chocolate ad?
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Willem Rethmeier
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mcfoto

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« Reply #42 on: June 24, 2008, 02:33:11 am »

Quote
Denis,
AFIK Dalsa and Kodak have not developed any new sensors.
I've visited both their info on their websites and there is no mention of anything new.
But I could be wrong.
Cheers,
Willem.

N.B Did you shoot the "Dark" chocolate ad?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203258\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi
No we did not shoot them - we thought they were for a hair product...are they for chocolate? Are there any other makers of sensors?

Denis
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Denis Montalbetti
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rethmeier

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« Reply #43 on: June 24, 2008, 03:19:43 am »

Dennis,
I'm confused.
I wasn't revering to sensors.
Wether it was for hair or dark chocolate,to me it looked like one of your images?
Regards,
Willem.
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Willem Rethmeier
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rethmeier

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mcfoto

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« Reply #45 on: June 24, 2008, 03:51:47 am »

Quote
Dennis,
I'm confused.
I wasn't revering to sensors.
Wether it was for hair or dark chocolate,to me it looked like one of your images?
Regards,
Willem.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203285\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi
No we did not shoot them.
Denis
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Denis Montalbetti
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rethmeier

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« Reply #46 on: June 24, 2008, 04:06:30 am »

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Willem Rethmeier
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BJNY

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« Reply #47 on: June 24, 2008, 06:45:17 am »

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Denis,
AFIK Dalsa and Kodak have not developed any new sensors.
I've visited both their info on their websites and there is no mention of anything new.
But I could be wrong.
Cheers,
Willem.

I doubt Kodak would make all their info public to end-users.
Look how successful Apple is keeping secrets from rabid fans.

Our request for better high ISO performance has been heard at least one year ago:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0706/07061401kodakhighsens.asp
Who knows IF and when this will ever make it into a professional product?
« Last Edit: June 24, 2008, 08:26:50 am by BJNY »
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Guillermo

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« Reply #48 on: June 24, 2008, 09:34:35 am »

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AFIK Dalsa and Kodak have not developed any new sensors.
I think all we can really say is that they haven't "announced" any new sensors yet. I would be shocked and appalled if they haven't been hard at work on their next generation products for some time now. And they wouldn't announce these until development was practically done.
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pookipichu

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« Reply #49 on: June 24, 2008, 09:58:49 am »

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Live preview is not just for view cameras!  Anyone doing macro, landscape, street or even architectural photography would have a field day with properly implemented live preview.  Shoot, anyone doing manual focus would love it.  It is a shame that 35mm DSLRs smoke the high end back makers in live preview functionality.  Anyone using it on a Nikon D3 or Canon 1D knows what I am talking about.

It is also a joke that the feature to level the + backs is only available tethered.  Any landscape photographer that has used the Nikon D3 will tell you that is one of the best new features.  Try reading a bubble level without your reading glasses in pre-dawn light.  Maybe I'm getting too old to shoot outdoors.  
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203178\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I tried the new AFDIII and P39+ combo, manual focus with lenses wide open is really, really hard.  Live preview would make focusing a lot more doable.   Shooting stopped down negates the DOF advantage of dMF, and spraying focus bracketed shots is just inefficient.  The viewfinder is hardly bigger than the 1DS3 but much dimmer.  I don't know how you guys focus honestly.  With the new Phase 80mm f/2.8, I did focus and recompose an that totally results in the subject being blurred.  That's one thing that really discouraged me about dMF, there are no outer focus points and manual focusing with accuracy is nigh impossible for my eyes.

I currently use the 1DS3 and live view for focusing with almost all my lenses, if you haven't tried it, it's a revelation.  I can focus the 50mm f/1.0 in formerly impossible situations, where outer focus points would fail to lock due to lack of light.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2008, 09:59:53 am by pookipichu »
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pprdigital

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« Reply #50 on: June 24, 2008, 10:32:56 am »

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On this I somewhat disagree with you Steve, at least in regards to the Hasselblad and the P30+.

I went with the P30+ not for the reduced cost or reduced sensor size, but because it had better high iso qualities and because it looked fractionally smoother than the 22mp chips.  There was also the added benifit of less moire.

I don't want, need, let me put this again, want higher mpx than 20 to 30, but the only thing that would get me to change from the p30+ if there was a 1.1 (excuse me 1.16) crop instead of the 1.3 (excuse me 1.26) crop.

More real estate would be worthwhile, if only to make my lenses a little less squeezed.

In fact I think cropping that 31mpx sensor was a mistake and medium format had a big chance to offer a big one up on 35mm with a microlensed sensor in 1.1 size, especially if they held to a good price.

I don't think you can underestimate how important higher iso is for a lot of work photographers who specialize in people.   Higher iso on a medium format back, already working with a slight bellows factor and  slower lenses makes a huge difference and unlike most of the iso tests we see on the forums, when we need higher iso, it's usually because the light levels have fallen and we're barely at the last point of getting the shot.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203254\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

James - if you'll read my post again, you'll see I did mention that higher sensitivity was also a factor. The P30 and H3DII-31 products perform very well at high ISO, and I have been surprised that more of my H3DII sales were not H3DII-31, but I believed Hasselblad priced that product too high initially and that was the reason. At $17,995, it sure isn't a problem now....  

It's clear photographers do want physically larger imaging sensors and we may see those. The challenge will be to produce technically more difficult yields of larger sensors at price points that don't break the bank. Larger sensors means fewer yields per wafer or larger, more costly wafers, which affects cost - I suspect a lot - so Dalsa and Kodak will have a lot to say about how much a full frame 645 or even 6x6 product ultimately costs. That's just my presumption, I'm sure some who frequent here have a more realistic sense of what the cost challenges are at the sensor level.

Steve Hendrix
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James R Russell

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« Reply #51 on: June 24, 2008, 10:55:51 am »

Quote
I tried the new AFDIII and P39+ combo, manual focus with lenses wide open is really, really hard.  Live preview would make focusing a lot more doable.   Shooting stopped down negates the DOF advantage of dMF, and spraying focus bracketed shots is just inefficient.  The viewfinder is hardly bigger than the 1DS3 but much dimmer.  I don't know how you guys focus honestly.  With the new Phase 80mm f/2.8, I did focus and recompose an that totally results in the subject being blurred.  That's one thing that really discouraged me about dMF, there are no outer focus points and manual focusing with accuracy is nigh impossible for my eyes.

I currently use the 1DS3 and live view for focusing with almost all my lenses, if you haven't tried it, it's a revelation.  I can focus the 50mm f/1.0 in formerly impossible situations, where outer focus points would fail to lock due to lack of light.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203346\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Focusing can be an issue with any camera, though with medium format it's a mixed bag.

I can manually focus my Contax's just because I've done it for so long and I find autofocus to be good, but not great, but I find that also on the Canons.  When it's good it's good, but a lot of the times it's not really that accurate either.

One thing I find almost impossible to do is manually focus a 1ds2.  That ground glass (plastic) never looks sharp to me.

I am also curious to what the next medium format camera will be.  If it's just more megapixels without better previews and a really good lcd, then I think they're going to set on the shelves.

If you've ever shot a D3, next to a medium format back and showed the AD the images on the back of the camera, they will look at the D-3 and say "wow I bet that's a billion megapixels or something".

I have never understood a few things about medium format and the first is why there is no in camera processing of jpegs or larger embedded previews and second why they cannot use these interfaces to wi=fi to something like an Ipod touch or an I-phone or even a laptop.

I know the difference in working a medium format file next to a dslr, but client's don't know ( or should they be concerened)  especially at the capture level and more to the point if your shooting non tethered they really should be able to  look at the back of that camera and believe that something  amazing is going to come out of it.

The maker that makes a "great" camera lcd and develops a "simple" wi-fi to computer to iphone/ipod view system will then have an almost must own camera, but 60mpx's that may move some people but most just won't care and no client I have is even remotely asking for it.

The second thing I don't understand is why are medium format sensors ccd rather than cmos?

I've read the papers where everything points to the fact that a ccd with larger sensors has less noise and will go to higher iso, but in reality that just isn't the case and since cmos is less expensive why not go that route?

Working professionally digital capture can be broken down into very distinct and different processes, but the very first process, the preview is what makes people go wow or hmm?

Now the third thing I am positive medium format must address is the costs.

This week a retail client handed me their digital capture price list that is set from one of their suppliers, a studio that is in multiple cities.

The capture package is now about 1/2 the rate as it was a year ago and instead of being based on the latest digital back or even the Canon Mark III, it was based on Canon 1ds2s.

Now this is a fashion retailer and they don't know or care if its a P30, an A75 or a 1ds2 and they don't care if you use their supplier or not, but they only pay what they pay and owning $60,000 worth of cameras vs. $9,000 doesn't change their pay structure one bit.

Actually the group that is making the most out of this retailer is the digital capture company, because they are essentially selling old tech that pretty much pays for itself in the 2nd week of shooting, vs. investing in new systems.

Now that doesn't mean that I'm going to sell my backs and buy two used Canons or that doesn't mean I won't use what I want to use, but if medium format is going to continue to sell at high prices, then they have to find ways to make working with their cameras easier, not more difficult.

Iso, better and more capable previewing will go a long way to moving us to purchase.  Slow iso, rough previews, computer generated processing doesn't make our life any eaiser.

In other words don't look at ways to just sell the photographer, look at ways to sell the photographer's client.

JR
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Jack Flesher

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« Reply #52 on: June 24, 2008, 11:09:11 am »

Quote
I tried the new AFDIII and P39+ combo, manual focus with lenses wide open is really, really hard. 
SNIP 
The viewfinder is hardly bigger than the 1DS3 but much dimmer. 
SNIP
and manual focusing with accuracy is nigh impossible for my eyes.

Hmmm.

To your first point, I use the P45+ with my AFD2 body and manual focus all the time with the Hassy 110 f2 lens at f2 -- almost zero DoF -- and nail it almost every time.  There is focus confirmation in the viewfinder and it works perfectly.  Finally, you can actually set the af segment to large area or point and point is very good for fine focus in AF, assuming you know how to point the camera at what you want focused and keep it locked there...  

To your second point, my viewfinder is brighter than anything else I have used, including the 1Ds3...

To your final point, I think you have zeroed in your problem with MF manual focus: your eyes.

Bottom line is these cameras do not think for you and require you to be in charge of most of the decision making.  So the best advice is stick to an auto everything DSLR unless you are willing to put the time in learning to control a camera and working around the MF shortcomings to gain the added image quality.


Cheers,
« Last Edit: June 24, 2008, 11:13:11 am by Jack Flesher »
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James R Russell

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« Reply #53 on: June 24, 2008, 11:13:08 am »

Quote
At $17,995, it sure isn't a problem now....  

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203352\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Steve,

Read my post I just placed and see if $17,995 isn't an issue with a lot of photogrpahers.

Actually if it just stopped at $17,995 that would be ok, but then you need extra lenses and oh yes, the dreaded backup.  What is the standard medium format backup camera . . . from what I can tell from most of the photographers I know, it's a 5D.

I've said it a billion times but medium format just about forces their customers to buy a competing brand of camera (usually Canon) for backup and higher iso alone (mostly the backup).

I can't imagine running my business where I forced a client to use a competitor on every job.

I probably own one of the most economical medium format kits around using a P30+ a P21+ and Contax's and I'm still much more than double the costs of brand new Canons.

I know that medium format can't exactly match Canon's prices, so if that is the case then they must find ways to make it a real "client" benefit to move to medium format and crappy lcd's, no in camera processing settings and slow "expensive" lenses, doesn't help.

While I'm on the subject of lenses, it's Mamiya more than anyone that I don't understand.  They had a huge line of fast lenses, leaf shutters and removeable prisms for their 645 camera and when they went to auto focus all of that just disappeared.

Granted one of the reasons medium format camera companies hit the skids is because there was not an economical solution for digital capture when the first 1ds came out, but I think coming out with new medium format cameras that are even more expensive than the previous film versions doesn't make a lot of sense, especially since everyone is talking money.

I hold to my belief that is somethng like an A22 or a P21 was available for RZ's, Bronicas, Mamiyas, Contax, Hasselblads and it had a great lcd and was priced around 7 grand, the 1ds would not have been that much of a success.

All of those cameras just went on the shelf to collect dust.

I can appreciate why medium format backs are expensive, but that doesn't mean any client can.


JR
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amsp

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« Reply #54 on: June 24, 2008, 11:22:28 am »

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Hmmm.

To your first point, I use the P45+ with my AFD2 body and manual focus all the time with the Hassy 110 f2 lens at f2 -- almost zero DoF -- and nail it almost every time.  There is focus confirmation in the viewfinder and it works perfectly.  Finally, you can actually set the af segment to large area or point and point is very good for fine focus in AF, assuming you know how to point the camera at what you want focused and keep it locked there... 

To your second point, my viewfinder is brighter than anything else I have used, including the 1Ds3...

To your final point, I think you have zeroed in your problem with MF manual focus: your eyes.

Bottom line is these cameras do not think for you and require you to be in charge of most of the decision making.  So the best advice is stick to an auto everything DSLR unless you are willing to put the time in learning to control a camera and working around the MF shortcomings to gain the added image quality.
Cheers,
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203360\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have the exact same experience with my first generation AFD, manual focus is a breeze. It's either your eyes or the cam you tried is seriously misaligned, my guess is the first.
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pookipichu

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« Reply #55 on: June 24, 2008, 11:34:40 am »

I always love how someone puerile says a snippy comment and adds a "cheers" like everything is copacetic...    

From my very limited experience of using the AFD3, with the 50mm FLE 2.8 and Phase 80mm 2.8, focus was very hard to hit, wide open.  Maybe you are a manual focusing genius, lucky or maybe it is my eyes.

Secondly, the viewfinder of the 1DS3 is brighter.  Unless your viewfinder is magic.

Lastly, I have bad eyes so I love liveview.  Is that a crime that should relegate me to shooting "auto" everything... or maybe manufacturers can work on providing usability for people like me so I am willing to spend blood money working as an artist to "upgrade" my system.


Quote
Hmmm.

To your first point, I use the P45+ with my AFD2 body and manual focus all the time with the Hassy 110 f2 lens at f2 -- almost zero DoF -- and nail it almost every time.  There is focus confirmation in the viewfinder and it works perfectly.  Finally, you can actually set the af segment to large area or point and point is very good for fine focus in AF, assuming you know how to point the camera at what you want focused and keep it locked there... 

To your second point, my viewfinder is brighter than anything else I have used, including the 1Ds3...

To your final point, I think you have zeroed in your problem with MF manual focus: your eyes.

Bottom line is these cameras do not think for you and require you to be in charge of most of the decision making.  So the best advice is stick to an auto everything DSLR unless you are willing to put the time in learning to control a camera and working around the MF shortcomings to gain the added image quality.
Cheers,
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« Last Edit: June 24, 2008, 11:35:36 am by pookipichu »
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #56 on: June 24, 2008, 11:40:05 am »

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What is the standard medium format backup camera . . . from what I can tell from most of the photographers I know, it's a 5D.

I've said it a billion times but medium format just about forces their customers to buy a competing brand of camera (usually Canon) for backup and higher iso alone (mostly the backup).

I can't imagine running my business where I forced a client to use a competitor on every job.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203361\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well it would be nice if there were a cheap MFDB to use as a backup, but I think we all know why that is not economically feasible yet. I hope that changes.

There are other high-end products which are in a similar situation. People who buy a Ferrari don't tend to buy a second Ferrari for when the first car breaks down.
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Dustbak

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« Reply #57 on: June 24, 2008, 11:58:18 am »

Ehmmm....


The very few that make money of their Ferraris do have a backup. I agree there are only 2 of them but they do have a backup car

All the others pretty much only spend money on their Ferraris.

Having said that. It is difficult to get a backup for MFDB unless you are willing to spend a really large amount. This is sometimes a bit disconcerting.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2008, 11:59:33 am by Dustbak »
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amsp

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« Reply #58 on: June 24, 2008, 12:01:22 pm »

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I always love how someone puerile says a snippy comment and adds a "cheers" like everything is copacetic...   

From my very limited experience of using the AFD3, with the 50mm FLE 2.8 and Phase 80mm 2.8, focus was very hard to hit, wide open.  Maybe you are a manual focusing genius, lucky or maybe it is my eyes.

Secondly, the viewfinder of the 1DS3 is brighter.  Unless your viewfinder is magic.

Lastly, I have bad eyes so I love liveview.  Is that a crime that should relegate me to shooting "auto" everything... or maybe manufacturers can work on providing usability for people like me so I am willing to spend blood money working as an artist to "upgrade" my system.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203368\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Funny how you admit to having bad eyes and trash MF focusing in the same post, I think Jack was only pointing out this fact. He also told you about a feature that helps out with this exact problem, focus confirmation, so it hardly takes a "focusing genius" as you put it.
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James R Russell

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« Reply #59 on: June 24, 2008, 12:04:05 pm »

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Well it would be nice if there were a cheap MFDB to use as a backup, but I think we all know why that is not economically feasible yet. I hope that changes.

There are other high-end products which are in a similar situation. People who buy a Ferrari don't tend to buy a second Ferrari for when the first car breaks down.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203369\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I don't know what this means other than it's a lot easier to find out what a Ferrari costs and when it's avaialble than any real information about new lenses for an HY6 on the Sinar site.

In fact you stand a better chance getting  a transcript from a yesterday's Bush and Cheny Breakfast chat than you do finding out when, what, if, how much, anything in medium format offers, costs and will be delivered..

The people that pay us see this differently.  They see the art, the photograph they want, the capture/review process and the costs.

For medium format to survive all of those must be addressed and I think finding some way to sell two backs to each user, rather than just one looks like a good plan to me.

Then again maybe your right in comparing these cameras and backs to luxury cars, but if I was Phase, Hasselblad, Sinar and Leaf that would be the last comparison I would want to make as nobody really needs a Ferrari.

I'd build and market these backs and cameras as tools that every working professional "must" have rather than some flashy P****s extension that you display to impress the neighbors.

But if they are going to market these as must have items, they better start making must have features.


JR
« Last Edit: June 24, 2008, 12:12:44 pm by James R Russell »
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