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Author Topic: new MF back for photokina  (Read 51249 times)

TMARK

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« Reply #100 on: June 25, 2008, 11:43:07 AM »

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Thanks, I'll look into those adapters.

Does your friend photographer have a site?? I'd love to see her work. I work with some art directors who work with Bergdorfs, but I have not gotten into their catalog yet. Two of my friends have though, Christopher Griffith and Bharat Sikka.

Cheers.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203593\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

www.Sherriphoto.com.  Her site has not been updated for at least a year.
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James R Russell

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« Reply #101 on: June 25, 2008, 11:55:17 AM »

Quote
Thanks, I'll look into those adapters.

Does your friend photographer have a site?? I'd love to see her work. I work with some art directors who work with Bergdorfs, but I have not gotten into their catalog yet. Two of my friends have though, Christopher Griffith and Bharat Sikka.

Cheers.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I own both the Letus and the Redrock and used the P+S technique.  They all work, the Redrock is larger but is much more difficult to set up align and use, plus it flips the image so you either need to add a good hdv lcd and mount it upside down, or use a camera that will allow you to flip the image in the camera.

The Letus on the other hand is easier to use and doesn't loose as much light as the redrock.  Actually much, much easier to set up and use.

The downside of of the adapters is they all soften the image somewhat because you are focusing on a moving ground glass.  They also loose some light and hdv prosumer cameras don't do high iso that well when you bump the gain, especially in low key lighting.  You will see a snowstorm of noise and it can be corrected in post but those corrections can be expensive, or time consuming.

Unless you need to throw the background out of foucs it's best to just use the available lenses.

If your video is only going to web play, then stay with standard def as the standard def cameras do higher iso much better.

This was shot hdv codec on a Canon with the Letus with inserted stills from the P21+ and you can see the difference in sharpness and detail.

It's not a deal breaker, but these adapters are just an intermediate step compared to something like the Red.

[a href=\"http://www.russellrutherford.com/greendayfinal.mov]http://www.russellrutherford.com/greendayfinal.mov[/url]

This was shot hdv with and without the redrock

http://www.russellrutherford.com/video/source/sanya.htm

and this was hot standa def with a long damn lens.

http://www.russellrutherford.com/video/source/soccer.htm


JR
« Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 12:00:07 PM by James R Russell »
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TMARK

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« Reply #102 on: June 25, 2008, 12:08:19 PM »

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I own both the Letus and the Redrock and used the P+S technique.  They all work, the Redrock is larger but is much more difficult to set up align and use, plus it flips the image so you either need to add a good hdv lcd and mount it upside down, or use a camera that will allow you to flip the image in the camera.

The Letus on the other hand is easier to use and doesn't loose as much light as the redrock.  Actually much, much easier to set up and use.

The downside of of the adapters is they all soften the image somewhat because you are focusing on a moving ground glass.  They also loose some light and hdv prosumer cameras don't do high iso that well when you bump the gain, especially in low key lighting.  You will see a snowstorm of noise and it can be corrected in post but those corrections can be expensive, or time consuming.

Unless you need to throw the background out of foucs it's best to just use the available lenses.

If your video is only going to web play, then stay with standard def as the standard def cameras do higher iso much better.

This was shot hdv codec on a Canon with the Letus with inserted stills from the P21+ and you can see the difference in sharpness and detail.

It's not a deal breaker, but these adapters are just an intermediate step compared to something like the Red.

http://www.russellrutherford.com/greendayfinal.mov

This was shot hdv with and without the redrock

http://www.russellrutherford.com/video/source/sanya.htm

and this was hot standa def with a long damn lens.

http://www.russellrutherford.com/video/source/soccer.htm
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203600\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

There is a hack for the lcd on the camera when using the Redrock that flips the image for correct viewing.  I'm sure it can be found on the web.
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« Reply #103 on: June 25, 2008, 12:10:12 PM »

Thanks TMARK. I like her colors, look, lighting. Looks like she has an imagination.

Thanks JR. I actually like the soft look. Just to be mundane, where to you buy this Letus, and what does it cost?
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James R Russell

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« Reply #104 on: June 25, 2008, 12:11:03 PM »

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There is a hack for the lcd on the camera when using the Redrock that flips the image for correct viewing.  I'm sure it can be found on the web.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203606\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I don't think it works with the Canons.

I believe the Panasonic and Sony's flip in the controls.

I went with the Canons because they had incremental higher iso than the Panasonic and Sony, but my testing was somewhat limited.

Still it's difficult to make these hdv codec prosumer cameras look great.  You can do it, but it takes a lot of post work and the sensor size is just tiny, tiny.

JR
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« Reply #105 on: June 25, 2008, 12:19:58 PM »

I was going to use something like this:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/4470..._Camcorder.html

Maybe it offers enough DOF control so I don't need the adapters?

(sure, we should probably take this discussion elsewhere, as it has little to do with new jumbo MF back...)
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James R Russell

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« Reply #106 on: June 25, 2008, 12:38:52 PM »

Quote
I was going to use something like this:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/4470..._Camcorder.html

Maybe it offers enough DOF control so I don't need the adapters?

(sure, we should probably take this discussion elsewhere, as it has little to do with new jumbo MF back...)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203614\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I have two of those exact cameras. They're ok, but they don't last very well and the controls are the most unintuiative of any camera ever devised.

It really takes about an hour before you shoot to get used to the switches and the menus must have been designed by someone that had too much to drink.

They're not built that well and I have sent both of mine into Canon for repairs, (our fault), but still when you hire film crew and operators they are brutal on equipment and these little plastic cameras just snap and break all over the place.

Under the right light they can produce an amazing image, but it takes a lot of practice and testing to get it down.  

JR
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« Reply #107 on: June 25, 2008, 12:47:23 PM »

Quote
I have two of those exact cameras. They're ok, but they don't last very well and the controls are the most unintuiative of any camera ever devised.

It really takes about an hour before you shoot to get used to the switches and the menus must have been designed by someone that had too much to drink.

They're not built that well and I have sent both of mine into Canon for repairs, (our fault), but still when you hire film crew and operators they are brutal on equipment and these little plastic cameras just snap and break all over the place.

Under the right light they can produce an amazing image, but it takes a lot of practice and testing to get it down. 

JR
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'll just be renting something like that, and it's just a test really. The main thrust will be shooting stills. *Anyway, how is the depth of field on that thing?*

Know anything about something like this?
[a href=\"http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/461818-REG/Sony_HVRV1U_HVR_V1U_HDV_Camcorder.html]http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/4618..._Camcorder.html[/url]
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James R Russell

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« Reply #108 on: June 25, 2008, 01:21:47 PM »

Quote
I'll just be renting something like that, and it's just a test really. The main thrust will be shooting stills. *Anyway, how is the depth of field on that thing?*

Know anything about something like this?
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/4618..._Camcorder.html
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203630\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


It's no different than the Canon other than the iso  or useable gain is lower and the build quality is better than the Canon.

The Sony shoots a very bland file though can be corrected in post.

Still uses a very, very small sensor (well three) but still very small.

The lenses on all of these prosumer cameras breath and use servos for manual focus which pretty much takes the hand to eye coordination of a brain surgeon to hit manually work focus.

It can be done, but's it tricky.

Unless you need it today, I'd wait for the Red Scarlet.

That looks like the digital version of a real super 16mm camera and probably one that will get much more use.

These prosumer cameras by Sony, Canon and Panasonic really are semi professional cameras.

JR
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TMARK

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« Reply #109 on: June 25, 2008, 01:33:31 PM »

Quote
I'll just be renting something like that, and it's just a test really. The main thrust will be shooting stills. *Anyway, how is the depth of field on that thing?*

Know anything about something like this?
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/4618..._Camcorder.html
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Try this one:

[a href=\"http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/520761-REG/Sony_PMWEX1UC_PMW_EX1_XDCAM_EX_SxS.html]http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/5207...CAM_EX_SxS.html[/url]

The videographer had a Red but this was his backup, or maybe it wa sthe EX2.  The frame pulls from this cam were really, relly nice.  These are all on sale because the EX3 is coming out, which has interchangable lenses and better gain/iso.
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« Reply #110 on: June 25, 2008, 02:12:38 PM »

Thanks guys, I will probably just rent one of the above for the weekend and see how it goes. Is there any DOF control with these or not?

(not making any purchases until maybe one of the Reds one day.)
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TMARK

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« Reply #111 on: June 25, 2008, 02:41:39 PM »

Quote
Thanks guys, I will probably just rent one of the above for the weekend and see how it goes. Is there any DOF control with these or not?

(not making any purchases until maybe one of the Reds one day.)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203643\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The chip is bigger than most, not Cinema 35 (Red) sized, but the frame pulls I looked at had a real nice OOF.  Mainly, color and tonality were really, really nice.
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Ignatz_Mouse

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« Reply #112 on: June 25, 2008, 02:56:15 PM »

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Try this one:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/5207...CAM_EX_SxS.html

The videographer had a Red but this was his backup, or maybe it wa sthe EX2.  The frame pulls from this cam were really, relly nice.  These are all on sale because the EX3 is coming out, which has interchangable lenses and better gain/iso.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It couldn't be the EX2 because it doesn't exist. The PMW-EX1 was introduced in the market a few months ago, so it can be still considered a "new" camera. It's probably the best pro "compact" camcorder you can buy today without any doubt: the first one of its class that incorporates three 1/2 chips (better high iso performance, better DR, a slighty narrower DOF compared to its !/3 and 1/4 chip size HDV counterparts). It also records on XDCAM-HD, a better IQ professional format than prosumer HDV (better postproduccion flexibility and lack of HDV mpeg artifacts).

Sony introduced early this year the HVR-Z7U, an interchangeable lens HDV camcorder with 1/3 and CompactFlash record capability. Maybe this is the camera you`re referring to when you talk about an pcoming "EX3"...

[a href=\"http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/532558-REG/Sony_HVR_Z7U_HVR_Z7U_HDV_Camcorder.html]http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/5325..._Camcorder.html[/url]
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Ignatz_Mouse

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« Reply #113 on: June 25, 2008, 03:23:10 PM »

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I have two of those exact cameras. They're ok, but they don't last very well and the controls are the most unintuiative of any camera ever devised.

It really takes about an hour before you shoot to get used to the switches and the menus must have been designed by someone that had too much to drink.

They're not built that well and I have sent both of mine into Canon for repairs, (our fault), but still when you hire film crew and operators they are brutal on equipment and these little plastic cameras just snap and break all over the place.

Under the right light they can produce an amazing image, but it takes a lot of practice and testing to get it down. 

JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203625\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The Canon you have is, yes, more a "prosumer" level camera than a real professional one and it can't be compared with the Sony PMW-EX1 or even the HVR-Z1U or the new HVR-Z7U; I think these ones are real "compact" professional cameras: all of the switches and menus are located in the same places as a broadcast camera and the feel of them is very close. The focus and zoom control lacks the smothness and precision of a 2/3 broadcast zoom lens but it's not that far.

When I had my own video post house we worked with a Sony DXC-30WSP, and amazing 2/3 broadcast SD camera (the first one that incorporated a 16:9 native chip), a DVCAM back and some Fujinon lenses...  I've been using the HVR-ZU1 for my personal projects and I really like how rugged and professional it feels; with the right light conditions the IQ can be really great too. I will buy a PMW-EX1 as soon as I can. While waiting for the RED I think you should give it a try.

An interesting thing about the HVR-ZU7 is that you can attach to it 1/2 and 2/3 brodcast lenses with an adapter.

In any case: you get amazing results from your Canons.

Carlos-
« Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 03:34:18 PM by Ignatz_Mouse »
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TMARK

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« Reply #114 on: June 25, 2008, 03:46:02 PM »

You are correct.  An entire set up should be in about $10k USD, maybe less with rebates.    

Quote
It couldn't be the EX2 because it doesn't exist. The PMW-EX1 was introduced in the market a few months ago, so it can be still considered a "new" camera. It's probably the best pro "compact" camcorder you can buy today without any doubt: the first one of its class that incorporates three 1/2 chips (better high iso performance, better DR, a slighty narrower DOF compared to its !/3 and 1/4 chip size HDV counterparts). It also records on XDCAM-HD, a better IQ professional format than prosumer HDV (better postproduccion flexibility and lack of HDV mpeg artifacts).

Sony introduced early this year the HVR-Z7U, an interchangeable lens HDV camcorder with 1/3 and CompactFlash record capability. Maybe this is the camera you`re referring to when you talk about an pcoming "EX3"...

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/5325..._Camcorder.html
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203649\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Tim Lüdin

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« Reply #115 on: June 26, 2008, 05:00:57 AM »

I worked with the EX-1. It's a very good cam. The EX-3 will even be a bit better and more pro.
The RED gets a heavy beast. Sometimes I wish it would be more like an EX-1.
The EX-1 has a very good price/perfomance point.
If the files were thicker, you could use it for almost everything. The files break much faster than for examle the RED files. But the RED gives you 4:2:2 RAW files and you even have a 4:4:4 video output.
The Letus adapter is very good. Gets soft but makes nice pictures.
Stuff from the letus look very filmlike. It can look amazing.

Tim
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TMARK

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« Reply #116 on: June 26, 2008, 03:28:33 PM »

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It couldn't be the EX2 because it doesn't exist. The PMW-EX1 was introduced in the market a few months ago, so it can be still considered a "new" camera. It's probably the best pro "compact" camcorder you can buy today without any doubt: the first one of its class that incorporates three 1/2 chips (better high iso performance, better DR, a slighty narrower DOF compared to its !/3 and 1/4 chip size HDV counterparts). It also records on XDCAM-HD, a better IQ professional format than prosumer HDV (better postproduccion flexibility and lack of HDV mpeg artifacts).

Sony introduced early this year the HVR-Z7U, an interchangeable lens HDV camcorder with 1/3 and CompactFlash record capability. Maybe this is the camera you`re referring to when you talk about an pcoming "EX3"...

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/5325..._Camcorder.html
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203649\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

FYI, the Sony EX3 is being demonstrated on Saturday.  I'll ask if its the same thing as the HVR-Z7U.
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Ignatz_Mouse

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« Reply #117 on: June 26, 2008, 04:13:26 PM »

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FYI, the Sony EX3 is being demonstrated on Saturday.  I'll ask if its the same thing as the HVR-Z7U.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Sorry, but you're totally right and I was wrong    The Sony PMW-EX3 exists and it's not the HVR-Z7U... Didn't know. As you've said is an interchangeble lens and a more expensive and "pro" version of the PMW-EX1. Here is an interesting review of the camera:

[a href=\"http://philipbloom.co.uk/Philip_Bloom/XDCAMEX3.html]http://philipbloom.co.uk/Philip_Bloom/XDCAMEX3.html[/url]
« Last Edit: June 26, 2008, 04:14:54 PM by Ignatz_Mouse »
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TMARK

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« Reply #118 on: June 26, 2008, 06:02:18 PM »

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Sorry, but you're totally right and I was wrong    The Sony PMW-EX3 exists and it's not the HVR-Z7U... Didn't know. As you've said is an interchangeble lens and a more expensive and "pro" version of the PMW-EX1. Here is an interesting review of the camera:

http://philipbloom.co.uk/Philip_Bloom/XDCAMEX3.html
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203853\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'll post my observations after we check it out on Saturday!

T
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BJNY

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« Reply #119 on: June 26, 2008, 06:06:54 PM »

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I'll post my observations after we check it out on Saturday!

Where is the demo?
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