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Markpark

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AFi 6 or 5 or wait?
« on: June 22, 2008, 03:13:28 pm »

I have done some searching in the web and this forum, and as I have not found anything I thought I'd just ask you guys. Hope you can help me out .

I am currently using a 5D with mainly a 35mm 1.4. Sometimes it's too wide but as the 50 1.4 does not focus properly the 35mm does the job most of the time (should buy 50 1.2, I know). My work is portraits, see example below.

Anyway, I am in the market for a MFDB. It's going to be a Leaf for sure, but which one?

The 7 is a bit too expensive, so that leaves me with the AFi 5 and the AFi 6.

Comparison:
AFi 5: 22mp 48x36mm 25-400 iso
AFi 6: 28mp 44x33mm 50-800 iso


6 above 5: 6 is cheaper (a lot now by the way, as there is a discount), more pixels, higher iso (I tend to shoot @iso 200 or higher because I almost always use available light).
5 above 6: 5 has a larger (44x33mm) sensor.

What do you think, am I going to see the difference in DOF due to smaller image size? Or should I just go for the cheaper 6 (which has a couple of advantages) and buy both the 80mm and 55mm which gives me more flexibility and will still be cheaper?

And: does anyone know any 800, 400, 200 iso examples of both sensors?

And 2: or should I wait because there will be (may be, okay  ) an even larger (e.g. 55x55mm) sensor coming up in the near future?

Thanks so much in advance.

And just to give you an idea of what I make, in case it helps in giving advice.





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Studio12NYC

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« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2008, 04:19:52 pm »

I would go with the AFi6 sensor based AFI.  The AFi5 based sensor is very old technology and the AFi6 has the better higher ISO.  The crop is not that big of a difference, unless you are shooting really wide architecture.

Caveat, that I am a Phase shooter.  But the newer sensor on the 28-30mp size sensor is better for higher ISO.  If you want full frame and will only shoot at 50-200 iso then go for the AFi5, but from the looks of your images, I would go for the AFi6.

Nice work by the way!
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bryanyc

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« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2008, 11:14:00 pm »

To be completely contradictory, I am not sure you are going to find the equivalent or better than your current rig.  I have the 35 1.4 and it is an incredible lens.  You can shoot nearly wide open and at high asa on the canons in low light (like you are) and get really sharp sparkling images.  Naturally it has a bit of barrel close up like in one of your shots but somehow it is kind of charming.

If you go to medium format I think you are going to be moving slower, perhaps not have the speed of the 35mm lens and not have the high asa performance.  Something to think about along with what you can do with tens of thousands you won't have spent.    

BTW, very nice shots.
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Markpark

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« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2008, 02:09:11 am »

well, I've thought about that as well. Also thought about the 1ds3 for it's DR, and also thought about buying the 50 1.2 because the 35 is too wide every now and then.

BUT: although 35 is quite sharp at 1.4, I rarely shoot at it because focus is off most of the times. The viewfinder is too small to focus manually (even with the ee-s focussing screen), the AF does not do it's work properly and the way the DOF behaves is offcourse different from MF DOF.

Besides that I like to slow process of MF, the waist level viewfinder etc. People (my subjects) behave differently to it.

But hey,.. if there's many more of you guys telling me MFDB is not the way to go for me, because of the max iso of 400 (even on the 800 back).. please tell me
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flashfredrikson

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« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2008, 03:15:05 am »

Even if MF might not give you a much much better IQ compared to the dsIII, which is a discussable thing, MF will give you an other and in my eyes much better approach to your work. It slows things down, it makes you focus more on your subject, it gives your work a rhythm to it, and taking pictures of people is a lot about rhythm I think.
As for yout initial question, as I am a phase shooter as well (P30+ & P45+, used to shhot the p25 as well), maybe it's apples to oranges, but I would recommend the leaf afi 6. Ok, the dalsa might be different, but I don't think its a real different story. and the P45+ at ISO 400 does not work for me at all, 200 only with a lot of good will. I always use the 30 when I need more stops.
Waiting for a bigger chip? even if they announce one at the kina, it will take maybe 6 more months still you can actually buy one, and that thing will have it's price. So if you are already on a budget...
I stopped waiting for things, better shoot today.

nice pics btw, esp the last two

cheers,
martin
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rethmeier

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« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2008, 03:57:48 am »

Martin said it all!
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Frank Doorhof

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« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2008, 04:55:59 am »

Hi,
I would advise to the larger sensor so the Afi5.
MP's is more than enough, but the larger sensor will give you more benefits of the MF system in my opinion.

The difference between the MF system and DSLRs is big enough for me to have made the switch a while ago, especially when you stop down, I have recently seen some samples from the 1DsIII which shows severe diffraction from f8 and up.
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FrançoisTT

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« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2008, 06:22:50 am »

Even if "The AFi5 based sensor is very old technology", is a big beautifull 9 micron chip like the Dalsa (or Kodak) 22MP not still better (especially for skin rendering) than the new 7 micron of the AFi6/P30/H3DII31... at 50iso (under good light condition) ? I agree, without stobe light, the answer is different. Regards.
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James R Russell

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« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2008, 11:27:56 am »

Quote
Even if MF might not give you a much much better IQ compared to the dsIII, which is a discussable thing, MF will give you an other and in my eyes much better approach to your work. It slows things down, it makes you focus more on your subject, it gives your work a rhythm to it, and taking pictures of people is a lot about rhythm I think.
As for yout initial question, as I am a phase shooter as well (P30+ & P45+, used to shhot the p25 as well), maybe it's apples to oranges, but I would recommend the leaf afi 6. Ok, the dalsa might be different, but I don't think its a real different story. and the P45+ at ISO 400 does not work for me at all, 200 only with a lot of good will. I always use the 30 when I need more stops.
Waiting for a bigger chip? even if they announce one at the kina, it will take maybe 6 more months still you can actually buy one, and that thing will have it's price. So if you are already on a budget...
I stopped waiting for things, better shoot today.

nice pics btw, esp the last two

cheers,
martin
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If you read these forums and compare them to the press releases from all the camera makers your going to get a lot of the world is flat syndrome.  Some think one camera is an absolute necessity, the other group will feel the exact opposite.

Unless you shoot for commerce and you absolutely must have a larger image with better tethering today, then I would strongly suggest testing all of the backs with a few of the faster lenses.

I've had the A-22, A65, P21+, p30(+) and they all have slightly different characteristics depending on the lighting and the subject.

All digital seems to me to be ambient color sensitive, expecially when shooting in open shade, open windows, like you showed in your images.

The Canons will pick up colors from afar, but the medium format backs are even more color sensitive than the canons and depending on the lens, the back, the subjects skin tone some are very difficult to produce a beautiful skin tone.  Light translucent skin is the hardest, especially for the A-22, even under direct strobe, and under open shade with subtle fill light they all can pick up a lot of color bounce, especially in nature.

Learning some different processors will change this as C-1 V4 does a better job on skin than 3.78, though Raw Developer even is more controllable for certain skin types.

Actually I think Raw Developer has the best overall skin reproduction of any software I have used and I pretty much use them all.

I find it interesting that your willing to invest heavily in medium format, but haven't tried different lenses for your Canon.  The 50 1.2 is a very nice lens and the 85 1.2 and 1.8 are great lenses, and very different in characteristics.  The Zeiss lenses also have a different look and feel than most of the Canons and I think there are stop down adpaters.

If you want to slow down the process you can also add a right angle finder to the Canons, though it is a somewhat cheap plastic device that has to be gaffer taped on for security, it does work and gives you a different perspective.

If your canons won't focus, send them to Canon and they will calibrate the lenses to the body.

There is a lot of ways to improve your work and the camera is just one of them, though I think the major stumbling block with most of medium format is the ability to try different glass on different bodies.

After saying all of this I have a friend in LA that is a serious amateur who has pretty much owned all of the dslrs.  He bought a Contax and was trying to find a back, so I sent him my P30+ for a few days to try it and he just bought one and returned his 1ds Mark III.

This doesn't mean it's a ringing endorsement to buy a P30 or any medium format back, but before you make the investment, find a few dealers that will let you exactly test what you exactly want to shoot, on the exact camera platform you want to shoot with before making the investment.

JR
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Markpark

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« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2008, 11:45:43 am »

thanks all

Quote
I find it interesting that your willing to invest heavily in medium format, but haven't tried different lenses for your Canon. The 50 1.2 is a very nice lens and the 85 1.2 and 1.8 are great lenses, and very different in characteristics. The Zeiss lenses also have a different look and feel than most of the Canons and I think there are stop down adpaters.

If you want to slow down the process you can also add a right angle finder to the Canons, though it is a somewhat cheap plastic device that has to be gaffer taped on for security, it does work and gives you a different perspective.

If your canons won't focus, send them to Canon and they will calibrate the lenses to the body.

There is a lot of ways to improve your work and the camera is just one of them, though I think the major stumbling block with most of medium format is the ability to try different glass on different bodies.

After saying all of this I have a friend in LA that is a serious amateur who has pretty much owned all of the dslrs. He bought a Contax and was trying to find a back, so I sent him my P30+ for a few days to try it and he just bought one and returned his 1ds Mark III.

This doesn't mean it's a ringing endorsement to buy a P30 or any medium format back, but before you make the investment, find a few dealers that will let you exactly test what you exactly want to shoot, on the exact camera platform you want to shoot with before making the investment.

Well, I did try other lenses and I do own other lenses. I have got the 85 1.8 for example but that's too long for most of my work. I also do have a 50 1.4 and am sure the 1.2 will be better, and probably will focus better when calibrated by canon, but that still only gives me a sensor of 24x36mm.

The option of an angle finder is a good one btw.

I'll be picking up an AFi 6 from Calumet on tuesday and can try it out until wednesday. Let's see if it offers me the workflow and image I am looking for. If it's not satisfaying enough to pay 20k for (body, back, 80mm, 50mm, 45anglefinder) I'd better wait for the next 5D which should be arriving later this year. Combine it with an angle finder, 50 1.2 and some calibration work might do the trick as well.
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James R Russell

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« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2008, 11:56:03 am »

Quote
thanks all

Quote
I find it interesting that your willing to invest heavily in medium format, but haven't tried different lenses for your Canon. The 50 1.2 is a very nice lens and the 85 1.2 and 1.8 are great lenses, and very different in characteristics. The Zeiss lenses also have a different look and feel than most of the Canons and I think there are stop down adpaters.

If you want to slow down the process you can also add a right angle finder to the Canons, though it is a somewhat cheap plastic device that has to be gaffer taped on for security, it does work and gives you a different perspective.

If your canons won't focus, send them to Canon and they will calibrate the lenses to the body.

There is a lot of ways to improve your work and the camera is just one of them, though I think the major stumbling block with most of medium format is the ability to try different glass on different bodies.

After saying all of this I have a friend in LA that is a serious amateur who has pretty much owned all of the dslrs. He bought a Contax and was trying to find a back, so I sent him my P30+ for a few days to try it and he just bought one and returned his 1ds Mark III.

This doesn't mean it's a ringing endorsement to buy a P30 or any medium format back, but before you make the investment, find a few dealers that will let you exactly test what you exactly want to shoot, on the exact camera platform you want to shoot with before making the investment.

Well, I did try other lenses and I do own other lenses. I have got the 85 1.8 for example but that's too long for most of my work. I also do have a 50 1.4 and am sure the 1.2 will be better, and probably will focus better when calibrated by canon, but that still only gives me a sensor of 24x36mm.

The option of an angle finder is a good one btw.

I'll be picking up an AFi 6 from Calumet on tuesday and can try it out until wednesday. Let's see if it offers me the workflow and image I am looking for. If it's not satisfaying enough to pay 20k for (body, back, 80mm, 50mm, 45anglefinder) I'd better wait for the next 5D which should be arriving later this year. Combine it with an angle finder, 50 1.2 and some calibration work might do the trick as well.
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Actually there is not a worse lens on the planet than the Canon 50 1.4.  I've owned two and threw one into a field, (where it probably still sets).

Unless you've tried the 85. 1.2 you just don't know what magic that lens can be.

The 50 1.2 is good, not great, but good, though for great the 50 1.0 set at 1.2 is also magic though the glass weighs more than a small toyota.

Regardless, nobody cares or wants to make your decisions for you, but until you test everything in the right circumstance you won't know what will or won't work, or allow you to move your photography forward.

Everybody tries one or two digital backs usually on one camera platform and then buys, then either has buyer's remorse or goes on the forums just positive that theirs is better than the other guys and it probably is for them, but probably not for everyone else.

I can give you 5 reasons why I'd buy an A-22 and just as many why I wouldn't and most of that depends on what I shoot on the day.

Then again pixels and sizes aren't everything and on an image like this shot with a 18mpx p21 nobody is saying it's not big enough, sharp enough and no client gives a rats a** what the micron size of the pixel wells are.



JR
« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 11:58:20 am by James R Russell »
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Markpark

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« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2008, 12:05:15 pm »

hehe.. I'll never be throwing away my 50/1.4 thats for sure. Not because I don't want to.. just because I never take it with me when I go shooting, it's in a drawer somewhere  in my office

you're right with your example btw. In fact that could have been shot with a canon 10D. On web everything looks good, and because of the white background not much of any DOF behaviour here.
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James R Russell

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« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2008, 12:35:17 pm »

Quote
hehe.. I'll never be throwing away my 50/1.4 thats for sure. Not because I don't want to.. just because I never take it with me when I go shooting, it's in a drawer somewhere  in my office

you're right with your example btw. In fact that could have been shot with a canon 10D. On web everything looks good, and because of the white background not much of any DOF behaviour here.
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This is such an apples to apples forum, like the actual camera is going to change someone's complete life and it won't.  It will allow you to do things you might not have done before, but even that can be debateable.

You can "Throw" focus all you want and of course on this forum it's now called 3D, on DP review it's call the B word, (which I still don't know what that is).

Still, it's the speed of the lenses that mean as much as anything and this was shot with a p21 on a contax 80mm  and "throws" focus.



This with a Canon 85 1.2 that also "throws focus".



Like it or not, $25,000 in camera won't change your photography or you life that much, though probably $5,000 spent in post production classes in Sante Fe will make a big difference.

JR
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Markpark

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« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2008, 12:53:58 pm »

Quote
This is such an apples to apples forum, like the actual camera is going to change someone's complete life and it won't.  It will allow you to do things you might not have done before, but even that can be debateable.

You can "Throw" focus all you want and of course on this forum it's now called 3D, on DP review it's call the B word, (which I still don't know what that is).

Still, it's the speed of the lenses that mean as much as anything and this was shot with a p21 on a contax 80mm  and "throws" focus.

This with a Canon 85 1.2 that also "throws focus".

Like it or not, $25,000 in camera won't change your photography or you life that much, though probably $5,000 spent in post production classes in Sante Fe will make a big difference.

First of all: maybe I do not understand you properly, maybe you don't understand me all,.. but

I didn't say the camera will change my life. In fact I just said your photo of the 2 guys could have been made with a 10D . Like you say.. it might allow me to do things I have not been able to do before.. it might not.

Don't start with that 3D thing please.. I've read it, that was so funny .
Anyway.. what does throw focus mean?

You say it's the speed of the lens that counts. Agree.. when you're only looking at the  iso and shutterspeed that you want to use. If you want a certain depth of field and a way it behaves (from focus to out of focus), it's not only the speed of lenses that counts, at least thats what i thought. The image size (35mm, MF, LF) counts as well, or the lens' focal length.. but those work together if you want a certain angle of view.

But anyway.. why do you post those 2 photo's? I like the looks of the first one better that the ones of the second one.. although they're difficult to compare cause of different focal lengths and differents distances to the subject. Especially the first one shows the look that I like: shallow dof, creamy background but smooth transition
« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 01:11:52 pm by Markpark »
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Morgan_Moore

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« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2008, 05:05:09 pm »

Quote
Don't start with that 3D thing please.. I've read it, that was so funny .
Anyway.. what does throw focus mean?


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I would disagree about the speed of the lens - its more about the length (and with a larger chip you get a wider view with a longer length)

The effect is real

I did some tests ..

[a href=\"http://213.120.106.237/smmcom/format_test/index.html]http://213.120.106.237/smmcom/format_test/index.html[/url]

BUT is it a killer difference between FF35mm and Slightly Cropped 645

Probably not when most 35mm lenses have a stop or two over thier 645 equivilents

I would think very hard about the Canon where the ISO AF speed ect are so much better

Printing (rather than pixel peeping) files from my D3 they are pretty great - I guess the canon is up a notch

For high gloss studio or architecture the MF wins but that does not appear to be your game..

SMM
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