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Author Topic: Down to the wire  (Read 14564 times)

hobbsr

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Down to the wire
« on: June 18, 2008, 08:10:42 am »

Hi All,

I wanted to start this new thread as the other one has gone a little off topic to assist my decision.

I really need some advice, experience, direction based on the H3D vs 645 AFD II P30 choice. It seems down now to a couple of things outside of cost:

1. H3D 1/800th shutter vs 645 1/4000th
2. Integrated vs open system
3. C1 vs Phocus

Gut feel I like the H3D for the integrated approach and IQ and build quality of the lens and feels sharper with the AF. The the iso perfromance of the P30 seems better, the overall cost of the system is better with Mamiya mainly due to lens. The 645 AFD II is I think a better body build but the lens are not the same as the HC.

In the end the heart wants to go H3D which will give me a one lens system! the mind is saying go with the P30 with warranty for the reburb, I can have a three lens system all for the same price but the image IQ seems just lesser in some way?

Help please, need to decide by Friday.

Rodney
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abiggs

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« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2008, 08:57:02 am »

Rodney, if you are not interested in using your digital back on a view camera or need an open system, this can be a large factor. Yes, the H3DII back can be used on a view camera, but requires an external FW battery hook up or the Image Tank. Do you need a focal plane shutter setup? Fast primes? Flexibility of zooms? Do you care about the software you use to process your images?
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marc gerritsen

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« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2008, 08:59:31 am »

Hi there again Rodney

I can remember going through the same about 2 years ago and settled
on the then H2D39, my main reason was that I wanted an integrated system
so when anything would go wrong I only had to deal with one dealer and I would not end up
in a situation where the camera was blamed for the back's fault or vica versa.

I have not regretted that desicion as upgrading was made really easy and relatively
inexpensive to the H3D. Loan cameras+back were made available whenever needed.

Way back I did my research and did testing with leaf and phase one.
The only drawback I have with this system is using more then 200 iso;
just not usable full res, but for my application (architecture and interior) not such an issue.

Never needed more then 1/800 of a second, you will need a lot of light to use that though
at 50 iso

Phocus will give you an other 50% more iso but have not upgraded my Mac system to +10.5
and also have not seen any iso tests so cannot say anything about it

For the last 2 years i have been using Flexcolor which works flawlessly but looks antiquated.

wish you all the best
m*
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Guy Mancuso

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« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2008, 09:13:13 am »

Well I went Phase One P25 Plus and The new Phase/Mamiya body and could not be happier. But you have to look at your needs . If you shoot outdoors with flash and such than the leaf shutter is a benefit but Mamiya is coming out with some leaf shutter lenses also just not out today. Couple things of note P30 Plus today is ISO 1600 and it is a very good 1600 i tested it in San Juan on my workshop and was very impressed . Hassy today is Iso 800 with a promise that the next Phocus upgrade it will shoot up to ISO 1600. I would not put so much stock thinking Hassy lenses are better than Mamiya's either . There very close and i am getting very very impressive images from some really cheap lenses. Mamiya also has a D series set of lenses coming out right now plus there are a couple already out. Just some random thoughts the new Phase body AF is supposed to be faster , I'm waiting for mine right now so not sure. I had a H3 body here the other day and it is very nice with some nice ergonomics. Nice features and such so depends on what you are after here. I would not buy any MF back without full customer support. Again just my experience from buying from Capture Integration it has been nothing short of stellar support and hand holding. These guys rock in my book, I went with Lance but Chris here is also a rock start with Phase products. Just going by my experience but I know Steve Hendrix from PPr is also a really nice guy. Just whatever you do make sure the support is covering your ass really well. It is important don't let anyone fool you there. You need help or some product you want that support.

There both good systems and going either way you should be fine. Remember there using the same Kodak sensor so there is no difference in the quality of files but also pick software here. I love C1 and they have been around forever and it does a amazing job on the Phase files and corrections and future software features are coming real soon. Phocus is a new software and it is doing a nice job from what I hear but again maybe some growing is needed with the next version or two. Nothing wrong with that but you need to look at the whole picture ( no pun intended).

Now Hassy is considered a closed system and Phase a open one. This debate can go on forever but the bottom line once you are in with Hassy you stay in with Hassy. Phase if you decide to switch systems it can be done plus there are a lot of alternate things you can do with Phase. That is something you have to decide because the next 200 pages can over this debate. Again bottom line it is what it is and have to decide yourself. I chose Phase products and i am really happy about it but your needs are different than mine and everyone else. The great news here is you really can't blow it either way, there both great systems and will get the job done but it depends on what your needs are and your end result. I suggest you call Chris right now and get a demo of the Phase products if you have not done so and same with the Hassy system try this stuff out.
Good luck
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pprdigital

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« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2008, 09:45:37 am »

Quote
Just going by my experience but I know Steve Hendrix from PPr is also a really nice guy. Just whatever you do make sure the support is covering your ass really well. It is important don't let anyone fool you there. You need help or some product you want that support.

Now Hassy is considered a closed system and Phase a open one. This debate can go on forever but the bottom line once you are in with Hassy you stay in with Hassy. Phase if you decide to switch systems it can be done plus there are a lot of alternate things you can do with Phase. That is something you have to decide because the next 200 pages can over this debate. Again bottom line it is what it is and have to decide yourself. I chose Phase products and i am really happy about it but your needs are different than mine and everyone else. The great news here is you really can't blow it either way, there both great systems and will get the job done but it depends on what your needs are and your end result. I suggest you call Chris right now and get a demo of the Phase products if you have not done so and same with the Hassy system try this stuff out.
Good luck
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202223\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Guy: Thanks for the nice compliment!


Rodney:

The issue of closed/open with regard to "locked in" is, in my mind, exaggerated. If you buy a Phase One back and decide to change cameras, you'll arrange for mount change - might be free, might cost you, depending on which package you purchased - and buy a new camera/lenses, etc and sell off your existing kit. If you decide to change digital backs, you'll keep your camera kit and sell the back.

Now, if you buy an H3DII, and decide to change cameras or backs, you will also have to sell your kit, but you'll sell the H3D as a complete kit, instead of selling either just the back or the camera/lenses.

It's not much different. You'll lose a little flexibility in selling it, but you will be selling one of the most popular products on the market - there will be a market for it. This is why I feel the idea of "locked in" is overblown, as if someone who buys an H3DII can't ever get out of it. You may take a loss, but you'll take a loss with any digital back/camera combo that you sell after some use. It can be expensive to change systems with any of the digital back/camera manufacturers. That is not proprietary to Hasselblad, regardless of the integrated approach.

You've narrowed it down to 2 good choices, and I won't try to sway you in one direction or another. But I feel the factor of being "locked" in is not as relevant as it is reputed to be.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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TMARK

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Down to the wire
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2008, 09:52:01 am »

If the issue with teh P30 IQ is softness compared to the H3d-31, its probably focus error or the way the files are being processed.  The files look different out of camera but they are the same, really.  Have the dealers demoed the software?  

My experience is that the digital parts are the same, the lenses are about the same, (sometimes an edge to the H, sometimes not, but not enough to make a difference) and it really comes down to the camera and workflow (software).  So which did you like better, the Afd2 or the H3?  And which software was speedy and intuitive?

Here is another thought.  Since you are starting out, why not go a (relatively) cheaper and less problematic route and get the Canon 1ds3?  Good for 80% of what any photographer wants to do.  Build your portfolio with that camera and get an MFDB if you feel the need later.  I shot most of my book on MF film and the 1ds2/5d.  Rent a back when you need one.  I just think its a little nuts to buy something so expensive when starting out, especially since they are not a good fit with many types of photography.  Too many pixels and too slow for many jobs.  I know you can make an MFDB work for most anything, but why torture yourself?
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BobDavid

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Down to the wire
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2008, 10:01:18 am »

A Canon 1Ds III file does not compare to a P30 or an H3D II 31 in any way, shape, or form. It's like comparing fish to grapefruit.  I'm not talking about resolution, but dynamic range, file integrity, and larger pixel sites. There's also a great promotional program running on the H3D II 31. The camera, finder, and 80mm lens are going for $18K.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 10:03:57 am by BobDavid »
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hobbsr

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Down to the wire
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2008, 10:07:47 am »

Hi All,

Thanks for the comments, I just wanted to add that I shot currently with Nikon D3/D300 combo and Leica M8's. I am looking to add a different level of image by investing in a MFDB the key is add another level and type of image to what I already do. I also really want to focus on some fine art type projects as well as my portraits.

Satrting to think that for the same investment for the H3D and one lens maybe the zoom for flexibility, I can buy the 645 AFD II plus 3 lens and have the warranty for the reburb P30 which I can extend within the 12 months. Then I can add either another 645 AFD II body or new AFD III.

It would seem I can't add a body for the H3D system, so starting to feel this is a little more limited. Also more new D lens from Mamiya adds up to the overall system cost being lower.

Lastly any advice to the best C1 settings for the P30 files so I can get the best to compare?

Thanks again I think the path is becoming clearer.

Regards

Rodney
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TMARK

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Down to the wire
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2008, 10:16:38 am »

Quote
A Canon 1Ds III file does not compare to a P30 or an H3D II 31 in any way, shape, or form. It's like comparing fish to grapefruit.  I'm not talking about resolution, but dynamic range, file integrity, and larger pixel sites. There's also a great promotional program running on the H3D II 31. The camera, finder, and 80mm lens are going for $18K.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202229\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This isn't about comparing.  This is about business and where most files end up.  I have a P30+ on a Mamiya system.  If there is not a budget for retouching I do it, and looking at them close for hours I can say with confidence that the MFDB files blow 35mm dig away.  No question.  

That being said, when starting out with no clients I think it unwise to be limited by a MF system.  Buy the Canon and a printer, learn about retouching, print a nice portfolio and get work.  If an MFDB is justified, get it after you know what your market requires. Or try film for a while if you want to know what shooting MF is all about.
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Guy Mancuso

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Down to the wire
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2008, 10:26:39 am »

Quote
Hi All,

Thanks for the comments, I just wanted to add that I shot currently with Nikon D3/D300 combo and Leica M8's. I am looking to add a different level of image by investing in a MFDB the key is add another level and type of image to what I already do. I also really want to focus on some fine art type projects as well as my portraits.

Satrting to think that for the same investment for the H3D and one lens maybe the zoom for flexibility, I can buy the 645 AFD II plus 3 lens and have the warranty for the reburb P30 which I can extend within the 12 months. Then I can add either another 645 AFD II body or new AFD III.

It would seem I can't add a body for the H3D system, so starting to feel this is a little more limited. Also more new D lens from Mamiya adds up to the overall system cost being lower.

Lastly any advice to the best C1 settings for the P30 files so I can get the best to compare?

Thanks again I think the path is becoming clearer.

Regards

Rodney
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202231\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Rodney if you shoot the M8 like i do than this is pretty easy think 2 to 3 times what the M8 is putting out. Better DR , Res and file all around. Actually the M8 is a good backup to it since there very similar in look. Love the M8 files but the P25 plus just is so much better overall. I am truly impressed which is not easy to do for me. But i agree you must have a need for this on the business side to justify going this route, it is not for everyone and it does have some limitations . But I have clients already saying good things and that alone made it worth it to me.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 10:28:29 am by Guy Mancuso »
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TMARK

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Down to the wire
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2008, 10:30:04 am »

Quote
Hi All,

Thanks for the comments, I just wanted to add that I shot currently with Nikon D3/D300 combo and Leica M8's. I am looking to add a different level of image by investing in a MFDB the key is add another level and type of image to what I already do. I also really want to focus on some fine art type projects as well as my portraits.

Satrting to think that for the same investment for the H3D and one lens maybe the zoom for flexibility, I can buy the 645 AFD II plus 3 lens and have the warranty for the reburb P30 which I can extend within the 12 months. Then I can add either another 645 AFD II body or new AFD III.

It would seem I can't add a body for the H3D system, so starting to feel this is a little more limited. Also more new D lens from Mamiya adds up to the overall system cost being lower.

Lastly any advice to the best C1 settings for the P30 files so I can get the best to compare?

Thanks again I think the path is becoming clearer.

Regards

Rodney
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202231\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That makes sense that you already have 35mm stuff.  

As to P30 settings in C1 4, well, it depends on the image.  I like to get a file close to how I want it to look then either retouch in Photoshop or send it to a retoucher with a file I've retouched to serve as a reference.  As to settings, I usually try to get it right in camera, and since I mainly shoot under lights I can control contrast and highlights.  I usually add some contrast and vibrance.  In C1 4 the saturation slider works on color vibrance when going positive and saturation when going negative.  That's really it.  It doesn't have the control of, say, Lightroom, but it is FAST and presents a clean workflow.

I usually sharpen in Photoshop.  Here is one point people miss with C1 4, and that is under the Output Tab there is a a checkbox that, if checked, does not sharpen the file at all when processed.  You end up with an unsharpened tiff file in PS and people complain about the lack of sharpness of Phase backs or of C1. You might want to check and see if that box is checked.

If you want to compare the files from the H and the Phase you could convert the blad file to a dng and process it along side a P30 file in C1 4.  I'd be interested in the results.

Edited to add:  I'm not shilling for either system.  They both make a beautiful file.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 10:35:15 am by TMARK »
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pprdigital

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Down to the wire
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2008, 10:34:57 am »

Quote
Hi All,

Satrting to think that for the same investment for the H3D and one lens maybe the zoom for flexibility, I can buy the 645 AFD II plus 3 lens and have the warranty for the reburb P30 which I can extend within the 12 months. Then I can add either another 645 AFD II body or new AFD III.

It would seem I can't add a body for the H3D system, so starting to feel this is a little more limited. Also more new D lens from Mamiya adds up to the overall system cost being lower.

Lastly any advice to the best C1 settings for the P30 files so I can get the best to compare?

Regards

Rodney
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202231\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Rodney:

If you mean a backup body for the H3DII system, yes you can order a spare as a backup. Hasselblad will actually take the digital magzine from your H3D/H3DII, and calibrate and position the sensor to exactly the same position so the Ultra Focus technology will work identically in both bodies. In case you didn't know, the Ultra Focus technology involves a known positon of the sensor with respect to the camera body/lenses and automatic adjustments are made as you change apertures from, say f4 to f16 for to ensure the accuracy of the focusing.

Again, with the introduction of the H3DII series, backup H bodies are now availbale for purchase for H2D forward to H3D and H3DII.

Steve Hendrix
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TMARK

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Down to the wire
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2008, 10:43:54 am »

Quote
Rodney:

If you mean a backup body for the H3DII system, yes you can order a spare as a backup. Hasselblad will actually take the digital magzine from your H3D/H3DII, and calibrate and position the sensor to exactly the same position so the Ultra Focus technology will work identically in both bodies. In case you didn't know, the Ultra Focus technology involves a known positon of the sensor with respect to the camera body/lenses and automatic adjustments are made as you change apertures from, say f4 to f16 for to ensure the accuracy of the focusing.

Again, with the introduction of the H3DII series, backup H bodies are now availbale for purchase for H2D forward to H3D and H3DII.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202237\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I used to think that Ultra Focus was some sort of marketing voodoo, but after talking to some friends with H3 systems, well, it does seem to ensure that the sensor is on the exact plain of focus. I always wonder if my back would be sharper if I added a shim.
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James R Russell

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« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2008, 10:55:08 am »

Quote
This isn't about comparing.  This is about business and where most files end up.  I have a P30+ on a Mamiya system.  If there is not a budget for retouching I do it, and looking at them close for hours I can say with confidence that the MFDB files blow 35mm dig away.  No question. 

That being said, when starting out with no clients I think it unwise to be limited by a MF system.  Buy the Canon and a printer, learn about retouching, print a nice portfolio and get work.  If an MFDB is justified, get it after you know what your market requires. Or try film for a while if you want to know what shooting MF is all about.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202233\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I don't know what you shoot, but if you are starting out and you want to train yourself to make a photograph rather than take a photograph, I would buy a used Aptus 22, or a p21 and stick it on an RZ and a heavy tripod.

Learn to see the image rather than run around with small cameras zooming and clicking the world until it looks good and you should be clear that a dozen or so extra million pixels will not make a bad photograph look good.

My first camera was a 4x5 view camera on an old majestic tripod and that probably taught me more than a room full of new nikons, or hasselblads.

Also I would definately buy a system that the file goes straight into photoshop.  If your starting you don't need to become a workflow expert learning a dozen different converters you need to learn to make a photograph, process a photograph and probably effect/retouch the photograph yourself.

You also need something that works in the 200 to 400 iso range max so you learn to modifiy the existing light, rather than just cranking the dial until you have an acceptable expposure.

A hundred assistants pass my way each year and to all except one their work looks the same, dragging around their canon snapshots that aren't very well thought out or crafted.  The one assistant whos work is outstanding shoots film with an old RZ and though he may only shoot 10 frames a day, those 10 are unique.

There are no absolutes in this business other than beautiful photographs are rarely easy.

If you use a camera that is somewhat difficult you will learn to see the photograph before you put a camera in front of your face.

Given all of this, I would even suggest film, other than film is a disappearing art and eventually you'll have to step over and learn the digital darkroom, so you might as well start that learning curve quickly.

These forums have a lot of sales messages and obviously they are going to mention the latest and the greatest, but few legends in photography bought into the latest equipment, even when they could afford it.  If you saw the cameras that Guy Bourdin, Helmut Newton, Paolo Roversi used you would be very surprised.

Staring out your goal is to make a photograph and no camera will make you a better photographer.  It's tempting to see all the shiny new dials, buttons, glossy brochures and be tempted to drink the Kool-aid, but remember your goal is to make yourself successful, not the dealers or the camera makers.

In other words don't learn how to do it, learn why you do it.

JR

P.S.  Saying all of this you'll probably not go this direction and do what everyone does.  First a lower cost medium format back, then a bigger, newer more expensive one, then another.

By the third purchase you will have moved your attention away from photography and over to cameras.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 11:03:18 am by James R Russell »
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Rob C

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« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2008, 11:17:22 am »

James

As usual, best advice one will get; even makes me feel less of an oddball for having gone from F4s to F3!

Rob C

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« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2008, 11:26:57 am »

Quote
I don't know what you shoot, but if you are starting out and you want to train yourself to make a photograph rather than take a photograph, I would buy a used Aptus 22, or a p21 and stick it on an RZ and a heavy tripod.

Learn to see the image rather than run around with small cameras zooming and clicking the world until it looks good and you should be clear that a dozen or so extra million pixels will not make a bad photograph look good.

My first camera was a 4x5 view camera on an old majestic tripod and that probably taught me more than a room full of new nikons, or hasselblads.

Also I would definately buy a system that the file goes straight into photoshop.  If your starting you don't need to become a workflow expert learning a dozen different converters you need to learn to make a photograph, process a photograph and probably effect/retouch the photograph yourself.

You also need something that works in the 200 to 400 iso range max so you learn to modifiy the existing light, rather than just cranking the dial until you have an acceptable expposure.

A hundred assistants pass my way each year and to all except one their work looks the same, dragging around their canon snapshots that aren't very well thought out or crafted.  The one assistant whos work is outstanding shoots film with an old RZ and though he may only shoot 10 frames a day, those 10 are unique.

There are no absolutes in this business other than beautiful photographs are rarely easy.

If you use a camera that is somewhat difficult you will learn to see the photograph before you put a camera in front of your face.

Given all of this, I would even suggest film, other than film is a disappearing art and eventually you'll have to step over and learn the digital darkroom, so you might as well start that learning curve quickly.

These forums have a lot of sales messages and obviously they are going to mention the latest and the greatest, but few legends in photography bought into the latest equipment, even when they could afford it.  If you saw the cameras that Guy Bourdin, Helmut Newton, Paolo Roversi used you would be very surprised.

Staring out your goal is to make a photograph and no camera will make you a better photographer.  It's tempting to see all the shiny new dials, buttons, glossy brochures and be tempted to drink the Kool-aid, but remember your goal is to make yourself successful, not the dealers or the camera makers.

In other words don't learn how to do it, learn why you do it.

JR

P.S.  Saying all of this you'll probably not go this direction and do what everyone does.  First a lower cost medium format back, then a bigger, newer more expensive one, then another.

By the third purchase you will have moved your attention away from photography and over to cameras.
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James is offering excellent and well thought out advice here. Morley Baer, the landscape photographer used a 50 year old 8x10 that apparently was held together with rubber bands. His photographs certainly don't look scruffy and worn out though. One of my photo teachers in the 1970s was Kryn Taconis, a member of Magnum, and a superb photojournalist. His Leica M3s were so beaten up we used to speculate that he probably dragged them behind his car on his way to an assignment.
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« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2008, 12:01:56 pm »

I met with a very nice lady photographer yesterday.

Her styling of the models is very nice.  She has beautiful images. She knows about fashion.
She doesn't have a usable camera so she expects to have one supplied.
She expects a technician to drive the computer.
She expects an assistant to do the lighting.
She expects a retoucher to handle color and postproduction.
She expects all the above accessories (hardware+slaves) to cost E300/day.
She actually manages to get all the above (Hassy+slaves+lights+studio) for E300/day.
I'm sure she'll make a name for herself - in my experience these are the people who get somewhere in the fashion world - ruthless with an understanding that if you know the right people any special skills can be got for almost free.

I'm really sorry for you James. You still belong to the old school who think that actually knowing how to do a job is necessary for success. The rest of the world knows that the only necessity is to have the connections to get the job and to find people who get it done, as long as the successful person can sign the result and keep the money.

Edmund

Quote
I don't know what you shoot, but if you are starting out and you want to train yourself to make a photograph rather than take a photograph, I would buy a used Aptus 22, or a p21 and stick it on an RZ and a heavy tripod.

Learn to see the image rather than run around with small cameras zooming and clicking the world until it looks good and you should be clear that a dozen or so extra million pixels will not make a bad photograph look good.

My first camera was a 4x5 view camera on an old majestic tripod and that probably taught me more than a room full of new nikons, or hasselblads.

Also I would definately buy a system that the file goes straight into photoshop.  If your starting you don't need to become a workflow expert learning a dozen different converters you need to learn to make a photograph, process a photograph and probably effect/retouch the photograph yourself.

You also need something that works in the 200 to 400 iso range max so you learn to modifiy the existing light, rather than just cranking the dial until you have an acceptable expposure.

A hundred assistants pass my way each year and to all except one their work looks the same, dragging around their canon snapshots that aren't very well thought out or crafted.  The one assistant whos work is outstanding shoots film with an old RZ and though he may only shoot 10 frames a day, those 10 are unique.

There are no absolutes in this business other than beautiful photographs are rarely easy.

If you use a camera that is somewhat difficult you will learn to see the photograph before you put a camera in front of your face.

Given all of this, I would even suggest film, other than film is a disappearing art and eventually you'll have to step over and learn the digital darkroom, so you might as well start that learning curve quickly.

These forums have a lot of sales messages and obviously they are going to mention the latest and the greatest, but few legends in photography bought into the latest equipment, even when they could afford it.  If you saw the cameras that Guy Bourdin, Helmut Newton, Paolo Roversi used you would be very surprised.

Staring out your goal is to make a photograph and no camera will make you a better photographer.  It's tempting to see all the shiny new dials, buttons, glossy brochures and be tempted to drink the Kool-aid, but remember your goal is to make yourself successful, not the dealers or the camera makers.

In other words don't learn how to do it, learn why you do it.

JR

P.S.  Saying all of this you'll probably not go this direction and do what everyone does.  First a lower cost medium format back, then a bigger, newer more expensive one, then another.

By the third purchase you will have moved your attention away from photography and over to cameras.
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James R Russell

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« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2008, 12:06:22 pm »

Quote
I met with a very nice lady photographer yesterday.

Her styling of the models is very nice.  She has beautiful images. She knows about fashion.
She doesn't have a usable camera so she expects to have one supplied.
She expects a technician to drive the computer.
She expects an assistant to do the lighting.
She expects all the above accessories (hardware+slaves) to cost E300/day.
She actually manages to get all the above (Hassy+slaves+lights+studio) for E300/day.
I'm sure she'll make a name for herself - in my experience these are the people who get somewhere in the fashion world - ruthless with an understanding that if you know the right people any special skills can be got for almost free.

Edmund
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I don't pay attention to people like this and honestly nobody should.  If she gets a good image on paper fine, but anybody can buy art, few can make it, fewer still can make it on demand with their own talents and skills.

There is nothing new about that statement and has gone since probably the paint brush was invented.

Then again I don't understand how this is relevent to this discussion.

JR
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eronald

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« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2008, 12:12:49 pm »

Quote
I don't pay attention to people like this and honestly nobody should.  If she gets a good image on paper fine, but anybody can buy art, few can make it, fewer still can make it on demand with their own talents and skills.

There is nothing new about that statement and has gone since probably the paint brush was invented.

Then again I don't understand how this is relevent to this discussion.

JR
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It's relevant to the "Learn to see the image" remark. Best way to learn to see the image is to just concentrate on that part and leave everything else to the tech guys. What does the image have to do with the camera ?

What I mean is - the best exercise to learn may be to tell someone else to run the camera and concentrate on the rest of the set.

Edmund
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 12:15:04 pm by eronald »
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TMARK

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« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2008, 12:34:51 pm »

JR,

I had this conversation with some people last night, some photogs but most were designers and CD's.  Oh, and a cinematographer.  We had all read the APE piece and the Robert Wright piece on the topic.  The consensus we reached was that the technology is homogonizing the look of photos by forcing (or "encouraging") people to chimp, blast off 10 frames a second, up the ISO to 12000000 when light gets iffy, use F4 Zooms with IS instead of primes, and they do it all with the same cameras and lenses.   There is a lack of reflection by many photographers that doesn't allow their work to improve, which is reinforced by art buyers who pigeonhole people.  This feeds into the one hit wonder problem where a newbie will win an award/get recognition but is really only capable of producing good work by chance, because they hit the 10 fps button on the Canon/Nikon and hope something good happens.  There is also a lack of visual literacy, or at least a lack of knowledge of any visuals or art movements that came before 1960.  When shooting MF and larger film, you have to previsualize, as you said, MAKE a picture.  Even with 35mm film, you could see a situation that presented itself as a photograph and then you would have to visualize what you thought it could be and then work to get the shot in two or three frames and with whatever speed film you had loaded at the time.  

That being said, 35mm dig has its place, but the technology offers a path of least resistance because of its ease of use, and its this ease of use that produces the homogenaity.  You have to have either been trained in film or work very, very hard to avoid the trap.  if you are starting out in commercial photography, you must shoot digital, and a 35mm dig is easy and painless, allowing you to not think about the camera, and its a nominal investment, but it can be a trap.

I think people focus on their cameras way too much.  What makes a picture isn't the dynamic range of your "larger than full frame 35" digital sensor or the razor sharpness of your H lenses. Its the same as it always has been:  subject, composition and light.  If you learn to light, put some thought into composition, any subject can be made interesting.  Learn how to light and even a crappy subject can produce a beautiful picture even taken with a Holga or an old 35mm FM2.  I suggest buying light and modifiers instead of an expensive camera.  I always own my own lighting.  I have enough light, grip and modifiers to pull off most of the productions I might work on if I couldn't rent.  Investing in lighting over the years has paid off much beter than any digital camera or computer.  For some reason people don't get in a tizzy over lighting like they do for a camera, but you know, they should.  I guess its that the camera gets the "Wow that thing is awesome!" from people when they see it, but the lighting gets the "My gawd is beautiful, it looks like Rembrandt, I think I'm going to weep" when they see the photo. Which response is more important?

Rob C:

Speaking of the F4, I still have my F4 I bought new in 1990 when I did Photo J.  Its been to Africa, dropped hundreds of times, I've hit someone with it in the fomer East Germany.  The AF is super slow but the VF is so bright  manual focusing is enjoyable!  I had an F3HP that was fantastic.  A girlfriend stole it when we parted ways in 1993.
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