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Author Topic: Need help H3D 31 vs Mamiya AFD II P30  (Read 11291 times)

James R Russell

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Need help H3D 31 vs Mamiya AFD II P30
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2008, 03:34:21 pm »

Quote
Any of the Hasselblad CF or CFII-Series backs work wonderfully on the Contax 645AF platform. As with the Sinar range, the CF and CFII-Series backs incorporate an interchangeable mount system, which can be installed and change by the user. If your friend wanted to change camera platforms down the road, or decides he would like to use a 28mm lens, it is only a matter of investing in the "new" camera, and buying the appropriate mount (approx $500-$800) for his "new" camera. Thats about as universal as it gets!

Regards,

Jordan Miller
DTG
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The CF may be great, but if any digital camera does not produce a file that goes straight into photoshop or lightroom without conversion , then that's a deal breaker for a lot of the market.*

Still, the point is when my friend tried to buy a back for his Contax, the dealer didn't push the CF or the Sinar they pushed the hd3 31 or whatever it's called.

The thing that needs to be addressed is regardless of the camera platform, this is somebody that went in to buy a medium format back and walked out with nothing.

How much better would it have been for all the manufacturers to have what he wanted available on the day, or maybe overnight?  


JR


*BTW none of this makes any bloody sense.  My Leica dng files from the camera will work all the way down to CS1 and it shoots a jpeg to boot.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 03:37:01 pm by James R Russell »
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pprdigital

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Need help H3D 31 vs Mamiya AFD II P30
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2008, 03:59:57 pm »

Quote
The CF may be great, but if any digital camera does not produce a file that goes straight into photoshop or lightroom without conversion , then that's a deal breaker for a lot of the market.*

Still, the point is when my friend tried to buy a back for his Contax, the dealer didn't push the CF or the Sinar they pushed the hd3 31 or whatever it's called.

The thing that needs to be addressed is regardless of the camera platform, this is somebody that went in to buy a medium format back and walked out with nothing.

How much better would it have been for all the manufacturers to have what he wanted available on the day, or maybe overnight? 
JR
*BTW none of this makes any bloody sense.  My Leica dng files from the camera will work all the way down to CS1 and it shoots a jpeg to boot.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202120\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If someone walks in with a Contax and asks for a back for their Contax, there is no reason that an H3D or anything other than a Contax-compatible product should be the first recommendation. I see nothing wrong with having a discussion about pros and cons of that platform vs others going forward depending on what that customer does and what they desire. But a good dealer provides a service to their customer by informing them of options and ramifications of making a serious financial investment with regard to many aspects. If the customer comes to the conclusion that staying with what they already have makes the most sense - a valid decision in many instances - there shouldn't be anything that prevents that, or any lack of interest on the dealer's part.

The #1 priority for the dealer should always be to arrive at the solution that fits best what the customer wants to do and where the customer wants to go, not the other way around.

Generally Hasselblad CF digital backs and Sinar digital backs like the eMotion - both of which feature user-changeable camera interface kits for Contax - are available in the USA. You may not be able to walk out with one that day, but if you want one the next day, that is usually not an issue. I was told about a week or so ago that the new Hasselblad CFII backs would be in stock in a couple weeks, but this is a new product and this is the first shipment. Generally, the product is right on the shelf. I make a phone call, and it's on the way to me or my customer for delivery the next day.

Dealers do not stock digital backs - there are exceptions, maybe Calumet, but not sure. We don't have "Tent Sales" where we have to "blow out" 200 Toyota H3D's this month. As everyone knows, the actual monthly unit sales are well below that. Would we sell more if we stocked them? In my experience, no. Keeping a $20K or $30K item in inventory more than a few weeks already starts to have a serious negative effect on margin.

But that doesn't mean a customer can't have one delivered to his door the very next morning from his smiling and helpful dealer. JR, it doesn't sound like this was the case for your friend, nor were his true needs addressed, and that is a problem.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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Steve Hendrix
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James R Russell

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Need help H3D 31 vs Mamiya AFD II P30
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2008, 04:35:48 pm »

Quote
If someone walks in with a Contax and asks for a back for their Contax, there is no reason that an H3D or anything other than a Contax-compatible product should be the first recommendation. I see nothing wrong with having a discussion about pros and cons of that platform vs others going forward depending on what that customer does and what they desire. But a good dealer provides a service to their customer by informing them of options and ramifications of making a serious financial investment with regard to many aspects. If the customer comes to the conclusion that staying with what they already have makes the most sense - a valid decision in many instances - there shouldn't be anything that prevents that, or any lack of interest on the dealer's part.

The #1 priority for the dealer should always be to arrive at the solution that fits best what the customer wants to do and where the customer wants to go, not the other way around.

Generally Hasselblad CF digital backs and Sinar digital backs like the eMotion - both of which feature user-changeable camera interface kits for Contax - are available in the USA. You may not be able to walk out with one that day, but if you want one the next day, that is usually not an issue. I was told about a week or so ago that the new Hasselblad CFII backs would be in stock in a couple weeks, but this is a new product and this is the first shipment. Generally, the product is right on the shelf. I make a phone call, and it's on the way to me or my customer for delivery the next day.

Dealers do not stock digital backs - there are exceptions, maybe Calumet, but not sure. We don't have "Tent Sales" where we have to "blow out" 200 Toyota H3D's this month. As everyone knows, the actual monthly unit sales are well below that. Would we sell more if we stocked them? In my experience, no. Keeping a $20K or $30K item in inventory more than a few weeks already starts to have a serious negative effect on margin.

But that doesn't mean a customer can't have one delivered to his door the very next morning from his smiling and helpful dealer. JR, it doesn't sound like this was the case for your friend, nor were his true needs addressed, and that is a problem.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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Actually the case with my friend was the dealer was pushing the 22mpx h3 on him with two forms of discount.

He didn't dislike the blad, he just didn't want to buy the blad and there is where the problem is.

I'm not pushing one back over the other, I am saying that a cusomter comes in and wants to put digital film on his camera and instead of someone saying, yep, we can get it in two days, heres the price, hand over a credit card, they start selling him up, or in this case over to another brand.

Your right, there is nothing wrong with a dealer offering options, but in this instance the dealer didn't offer any options except one and that option wasn't what the customer wanted so the dealer sold nothing.  The dealer didn't even get a rental out of the effort so what does that say about medium format?

Steve, you like the idea of camera/back integration, personally I don't and personally I don't see a problem with my contax not talking to the camera back because I haven't seen any issues with the files.

Regardless I can promise you that this market is so small and medium format is so complicated that unless the back makers find a way to just sell the backs and make it easy on their customers, it will become an all Nikon and Canon world because you can buy one of those the same day and yes the files work in about everything.

JR
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pprdigital

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Need help H3D 31 vs Mamiya AFD II P30
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2008, 05:39:30 pm »

Quote
Actually the case with my friend was the dealer was pushing the 22mpx h3 on him with two forms of discount.

He didn't dislike the blad, he just didn't want to buy the blad and there is where the problem is.

I'm not pushing one back over the other, I am saying that a cusomter comes in and wants to put digital film on his camera and instead of someone saying, yep, we can get it in two days, heres the price, hand over a credit card, they start selling him up, or in this case over to another brand.

Your right, there is nothing wrong with a dealer offering options, but in this instance the dealer didn't offer any options except one and that option wasn't what the customer wanted so the dealer sold nothing.  The dealer didn't even get a rental out of the effort so what does that say about medium format?
JR
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Yes - that is where the dealer failed that customer (and themselves). It's a problem.
Quote
Steve, you like the idea of camera/back integration, personally I don't and personally I don't see a problem with my contax not talking to the camera back because I haven't seen any issues with the files.
JR
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As time goes on, medium format film cameras will become less and less viable. I see camera/back integration as inevitable and I see it as advanced in some ways, perhaps ways that haven't even been thought of yet. Maybe not for you, but I think photographers have a tendency to underestimate the different ways in which photographic products are used and if a photographer doesn't see a benefit to the way he/she works, often the conclusion is that there is no advantage to others.

I do not see camera/back integration as a viably exclusive choice where you can no longer buy a digital back to put on whatever camera you want. In fact, while I do like camera/back integration (and so do my customers that buy it), I feel strongly that Hasselblad, Leaf, and Sinar don't emphasize their digital backs enough, which is particularly unfortunate for Hasselblad/Sinar, given that they offer the most flexible open platform digital backs on the market.

Quote
Regardless I can promise you that this market is so small and medium format is so complicated that unless the back makers find a way to just sell the backs and make it easy on their customers, it will become an all Nikon and Canon world because you can buy one of those the same day and yes the files work in about everything
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202128\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think you know it will never become an all Nikon/Canon (Sony?) world but darned if medium format sometimes helps to create that possibility. Lots of things could be better. Medium format is clearly a technically complex platform, and the medium format manufacturers, while they're trying, have to do a better job of making it vaible to purchase. It's a challenge, though, as it requires a difficult blend of financial committment (with a healthy dose of faith), and integrity-based, knowledgeable and passionate sales staff on the dealer side of things.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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RobertJ

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Need help H3D 31 vs Mamiya AFD II P30
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2008, 05:42:51 pm »

Everyone says Sinar is hard to find in the US, but it seems quite available at one of the most popular camera stores in America, and if you're not a pro, and you have to wait a month for something to be ordered, so what?  The same thing could easily happen to a Canon 5D or some Canon lens.  The 85 1.8 is out of stock quite often...


Sinar emotion 75: http://www.calumetphoto.com/item/SR976865/
Contax 645 emotion adapter: http://www.calumetphoto.com/item/SR946877/
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 05:44:43 pm by T-1000 »
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Snook

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Need help H3D 31 vs Mamiya AFD II P30
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2008, 05:46:24 pm »

Quote
Everyone says Sinar is hard to find in the US, but it seems quite available at one of the most popular camera stores in America, and if you're not a pro, and you have to wait a month for something to be ordered, so what?  The same thing could easily happen to a Canon 5D or some Canon lens.  The 85 1.8 is out of stock quite often...
Sinar emotion 75: http://www.calumetphoto.com/item/SR976865/
Contax 645 emotion adapter: http://www.calumetphoto.com/item/SR946877/
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202140\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

How is Sinar Pricing Compared to the others..?
I hear Sinar or Broncolor and I instantly think $$$$$$
Just habit..?
Snook
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thsinar

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Need help H3D 31 vs Mamiya AFD II P30
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2008, 05:06:27 am »

Dear Snook,

Yes, I believe it is "pure habit":

http://sinarbron.com/documents/Sinar_Pricing_2008.pdf

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
How is Sinar Pricing Compared to the others..?
I hear Sinar or Broncolor and I instantly think $$$$$$
Just habit..?
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202141\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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narikin

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Need help H3D 31 vs Mamiya AFD II P30
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2008, 10:39:44 am »

what I have slowly come to realise is that the old way of thinking - that the 'Camera' was what you bought (i.e. the body) and then added backs, lenses, accessories, to make your system is the wrong model today.

what we should be thinking is that you buy the digital back, and add the rest around it, as the accessories, including the camera...

It's the most expensive item, and all the rest falls into place around it - thus you can buy a Phase back, and then add/ use it with- a contax/hassie/mamiya/phase body+ lens, or put it on something like an Alpa/ Cambo, or onto your Sinar/ Linhof view camera with an adapter. its the BACK that is central to this.

Thus think first of the digital back and how many options it gives you to work in different ways, with different bodies for different purposes, and that gives you your answer.  So if you only shoot in the studio with a 'blad type camera then their (closed) system is very good, but if you ever think you might want to use the back on a view camera, or on an Alpa for extreme wide work / shift, or on another type of body (Mamiya, Contax...) then you have to go with that aspect and invest in an unlocked system.
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Studio12NYC

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Need help H3D 31 vs Mamiya AFD II P30
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2008, 11:35:30 am »

I only shoot with Phase and have tried them all.  For the past 5 years have been with phase, leaf, sinar, hasselblad and back to Phase

It is just easy and my experience. Not wanting to start an argument.

But as most pro's here state. TEST IT, TEST IT, TEST IT and see what works for you.

Best of luck with you choice
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