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Author Topic: Need help H3D 31 vs Mamiya AFD II P30  (Read 11292 times)

hobbsr

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Need help H3D 31 vs Mamiya AFD II P30
« on: June 15, 2008, 08:42:40 am »

Hi All,

So I have tow options available to me to get into my first MFDB system. I have tested the Hasselblad H3D with an 80 and 50-110 zoom.

Option 1: Hasselblad H3D 31 (used) with new 50-110 lens and some minor accessories

Option2: Mamiya AFD II (used) with refurb P30 back with 1 yr warranty with 80, 150, 105-210, 55-100 lens (used)

These both add up to be very close on price the Mamaiya is approx. $500 more but I would have more lens and a 1 year warranty on the back.

Please offer your views to which system would be the better choice?

Thanks for your insights in advance

Rodney
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Snook

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Need help H3D 31 vs Mamiya AFD II P30
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2008, 10:42:21 am »

Quote
Hi All,

So I have tow options available to me to get into my first MFDB system. I have tested the Hasselblad H3D with an 80 and 50-110 zoom.

Option 1: Hasselblad H3D 31 (used) with new 50-110 lens and some minor accessories

Option2: Mamiya AFD II (used) with refurb P30 back with 1 yr warranty with 80, 150, 105-210, 55-100 lens (used)

These both add up to be very close on price the Mamaiya is approx. $500 more but I would have more lens and a 1 year warranty on the back.

Please offer your views to which system would be the better choice?

Thanks for your insights in advance

Rodney
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=201693\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Extremely happy P30 user here..
I think the P30 will have less problems down the road and is really rugged..
I never even looked at Hassle as an option...
SNook
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SecondFocus

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Need help H3D 31 vs Mamiya AFD II P30
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2008, 11:13:28 am »

The warranty is a big plus.
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rueyloon

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Need help H3D 31 vs Mamiya AFD II P30
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2008, 11:46:45 am »

Quote
Hi All,

So I have tow options available to me to get into my first MFDB system. I have tested the Hasselblad H3D with an 80 and 50-110 zoom.

Option 1: Hasselblad H3D 31 (used) with new 50-110 lens and some minor accessories

Option2: Mamiya AFD II (used) with refurb P30 back with 1 yr warranty with 80, 150, 105-210, 55-100 lens (used)

These both add up to be very close on price the Mamaiya is approx. $500 more but I would have more lens and a 1 year warranty on the back.

Please offer your views to which system would be the better choice?

Thanks for your insights in advance

Rodney
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=201693\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

ok, here's how I look at it.

If you're already doing big budget shoots, you won't be asking this as money won't be a problem. You'll get the Hassy and just pop a few K each time you need a new lens. But from the looks of it, you may be better off with the Mamiya and free off some money for other expenses. If you ever need to expand the system, getting a used Mamiya lens off ebay is cheap. Most of the lenses on ebay are under 1k, definately you can pay it off with 1 shoot. I believe Hassy lenses are 3 times that ? So if you clock 5k per shoot, go for the Hassy.

Anyway, the lenses from the Mamiya set you mentioned has too many overlaps. I find shooting with the DB and a MF camera to be slow and deliberate, most of the time you get to control the shooting situation hence you can take your time with primes. YMMV

cheers
rgs
rueyloon
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j.miller

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Need help H3D 31 vs Mamiya AFD II P30
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2008, 09:58:24 pm »

Have you considered the recent promotion announced on the Hasselblad H3DII-31? I am not sure what you were planning to pay for the used H3D-31, or a used AFDII / P30...

The promotion currently available on the H3DII-31 puts the price under $18K for a complete H3DII-31!

With the appropriate discussion with a dealer, including the HC 50-110mm, you could easily get into the H3DII-31 kit, plus the HC zoom, for roughly $21K.

The lens pricing is an obvious consideration with any system, and the advantages of the HC lenses (especially on an H3DII), as well as the those of the Mamiya AFD have been discussed in detail throughout this forum, as well as others.

Regards,

Jordan Miller

Quote
Hi All,

So I have tow options available to me to get into my first MFDB system. I have tested the Hasselblad H3D with an 80 and 50-110 zoom.

Option 1: Hasselblad H3D 31 (used) with new 50-110 lens and some minor accessories

Option2: Mamiya AFD II (used) with refurb P30 back with 1 yr warranty with 80, 150, 105-210, 55-100 lens (used)

These both add up to be very close on price the Mamaiya is approx. $500 more but I would have more lens and a 1 year warranty on the back.

Please offer your views to which system would be the better choice?

Thanks for your insights in advance

Rodney
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« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 10:55:38 am by j.miller »
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mcfoto

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Need help H3D 31 vs Mamiya AFD II P30
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2008, 04:36:17 am »

Quote
Hi All,

So I have tow options available to me to get into my first MFDB system. I have tested the Hasselblad H3D with an 80 and 50-110 zoom.

Option 1: Hasselblad H3D 31 (used) with new 50-110 lens and some minor accessories

Option2: Mamiya AFD II (used) with refurb P30 back with 1 yr warranty with 80, 150, 105-210, 55-100 lens (used)

These both add up to be very close on price the Mamaiya is approx. $500 more but I would have more lens and a 1 year warranty on the back.

Please offer your views to which system would be the better choice?

Thanks for your insights in advance

Rodney
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Hi
Really depends on your need for leaf shutters or not. If not go for the Mamiya.
Denis
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Denis Montalbetti
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Anders_HK

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Need help H3D 31 vs Mamiya AFD II P30
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2008, 12:17:55 am »

Hi

I went for Leaf Aptus 65 over P30 and am very pleased. Prices vary in different regions. I went for a new A65 since it was not that much more than refurbished and longer warranty . As for P30 versus A65 it is due personal preferences and shooting style.

When I open files in CS3 Camera Raw image colors look already beautiful at default settings and my eye is very sensitive.

Regards
Anders
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hobbsr

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Need help H3D 31 vs Mamiya AFD II P30
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2008, 10:15:55 am »

Hi All,

Just wanted to provide an update as late today I was able at last to get a P30+ to test which is suppose to represent a P30 as that is what is on offer. I ran around with the 35, 80 and 150 and did a limited test and found the following initial observations which I wanted to see if these sound common:

1. mamiya vs Hasselblad the images seemed a little softer from the Mamiya even when stopped down
2. Liked the fact that the H3D powers the back from the grip
3. P31+ seems to have a better noise pattern and maybe C1 helps this processing mainly looking at iso 800, not sure if there are any other major IQ differences?
4. Mamiya was much lighter to handle
5. Hasselblad lens just feel better made
6. 645 AFD and P31+ back seemed to be better made and more durable than the H3D
7. P31+ screen seems alot nicer than the H3D lcd

key last point was the difference in being able to shoot at hight than 1/800th with the 645 AFD which enabled more 2.8 usage which I like. Still not sure how I would fair with the H3D as sync speed is not a killer for me at this stage?

Anyway if anybody has anything extra to add as I have to sort this out on Friday this week. major problem I see is if I go with the H3D which is the best lens. I have this in another post and keep hearing bad things about the 50-110 zoom around reliability? Unfortunately the key to me buying into that system is that I will need to survive a while on one lens. mamiya is far more affordable in the short term to build the system out but will be paying more for the back. Choices are hard.

Key points:

Mamiya + P30
- Warranty with back and can be extended
- cost of lens and availability of used ones
- Overall weight

Hasselblad
- Integrated system
- Build quality of the lens and overall better sharpness

Lots to think thru.

Rodney
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clawery

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Need help H3D 31 vs Mamiya AFD II P30
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2008, 10:40:03 am »

Rodney,

Not to stir the pot any more, but were you able to take a look at a Phase One 645 body/ lenses?
Here are some of the improvements:

Improved shutter speed range 1/4000th - 60 minutes
New AF motor with 3 AF points
New digital board
Improved dial, shutter, grip ergonomics, AF lever (for AF mode selection)
Ready for 120 frames per minute
Ready for leaf shutters, expected 2008
Value Added Warranty: 3 year or 300,000 actuations (body and lens)
Classic Warranty: 1 year or 100,000 actuations (body and lens)
Compatible with Mamiya MF lenses, and AF lenses with no adaptor
Compatible with Hasselblad V lenses with adapter (included with Value Added Warranty)
Compatible with Pentacon 6 series lenses with adapter (available from Hartblei)
New 80mm F2.8 AF lens
Extremely low chromatic aberration
Steel barrel
New ergonomic design
New Value Added Case
Fits a laptop
Has roller wheels and handle
Room for body and two lenses

Here is a link to Phase One's web site to see more information.

http://www.phaseone.com/camera/

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year

877-217-9870 | National
404-234-5195 | Cell  
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JTFOTO

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Need help H3D 31 vs Mamiya AFD II P30
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2008, 10:46:42 am »

I've been with Hassy & Phase for four years.  Love it for certain reasons.

But liking the new Mamiya as I had a loaner for a week.  Once the leaf shutter lenses come out I will most likely switch. I REALLY love the AA battery feature in the body.  You can get a double A anywhere in the world!  I mean anywhere.

Hassy is a city slicker, the mamiya can really go anywhere.

Quality is comparable in lens sharpness.
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James R Russell

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Need help H3D 31 vs Mamiya AFD II P30
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2008, 11:16:37 am »

Quote
Key points:

Mamiya + P30
- Warranty with back and can be extended
- cost of lens and availability of used ones
- Overall weight

Hasselblad
- Integrated system
- Build quality of the lens and overall better sharpness

Lots to think thru.

Rodney
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Not to take this completely off topic, but yesterday afternoon I received a call from a friend who is a high end amateur.  He walked into a camera store that sells Leaf, Phase, Sinar and Hasselblad cash in hand to buy a digital back for his contax.

He wanted  Phase back, but was open minded about whatever brand, though the goal was to use his contax with digital, rather than film.

He was shocked that he just couldn't buy a back, put it on his camera and leave.

They had Phase for the Phase camera, Hasselblad was an all in one system, the Leaf and Sinars that were availalble were all in HY6 mounts and the dealer told him a contax mount in any of these backs would take a month minimum.

So now he's looking at a new camera with new lenses and was almost to the point of buying when it hit him that he really didn't want a new camera with new lenses, he just wanted to be able to shoot digital with his contax, put the files in photoshop and process them.

He briefly entertained the hd31 until the dealer told him the files had to be converted to dng to work in photoshop and lightroom so he dropped that thought.

Then he looked at the HY6 but the lens prices for a complete system put him off, so then he entertained the Phase camera, but only because it would adapt to his RZ, though then once told he had to either upgrade his RZ to a RZ digital body, or use a sync cable from the back to the lens, etc. etc.

Now this wasn't a kick the tires on a Saturday afternoon session, this was a cash in hand, buy a digital back today effort and a sale was directly lost because none of these back easily go onto any camera platform without a long wait, or buying different adapters (another wait) or buying a new camera system which was a lot more expense, or learning a makers software to convert the files, which he has no interest in.

This is what surprises me about medium format.  The back makers have spent millions aligining themselves with their own proprietary cameras but none of them make it easy to just click a back on any medium format camera and start shooting.  (yes I know Hasselblad and Sinar have adapters, but this dealer had none in stock and said the wait was weeks maybe months).

So his next step was to go downstairs to rental and rent one of these systems before buying.

They didn't rent Sinar and Hasselblad so he couldn't test that, they did rent phase, but the few backs they had were out of the store and they did rent a Leaf but an older version A22 for an H-1 mount, so he left the store.

I can relate to this.  What if I wanted to add a new camera  for my backs, either a Hasselblad, a Mamiya/Phase or a Hy6.   I might entertain that if only for the leaf shutters, but not at the expense of throwing away 4 bodies and a dozen lenses.

For some reason medium format complicates the process or has a myopic view that the only people interested in buying a digital back are also interested in a new camera system and most importantly locked into that one camera system.




JR
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TMARK

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Need help H3D 31 vs Mamiya AFD II P30
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2008, 11:27:42 am »

I went through this in January and went with the P30+ in AFd mount over an H3D.  It was easier for me because I had an AFd and lenses.  I don't know for sure whether I would go with the AFd if I didn't already have one.  I think it really comes down to which workflow works for you and which camera clicks with you, because the digital hardware side of it is essentially the same.

So, which software did you like better?  Flexcolor/Phocus or C1?

Which camera?  The H has better AF and a max 800 shutter.  The AFd has crappy AF and up to 1/4000 shutter, but only syncs at 1/125.  Lenses are, mostly, a toss.

To be frank, I don't love any of the MF cameras with AF, except the Hy6 and the Rollei 6008.  And even these cameras are limited by not having a focal plane shutter.

One thing nice about the H3D is that the back is matched to the body, which might partially account for the sharper images you see from the H.  The other factor in the softer P30 image is probably the Mamiya's AF.  My AFd bodies (not AFd2) always lock focus on the wrong point and, even on a tripod and pointed at a static subject, will change focus each time the AF is triggered.  The AFd2 is better, even a little faster, but not as good as the H3 AF, which is still like a Nikon F4's AF.  I did a test last night and found that 90% of the frames were out of focus when using AF, wide open.  Manually focusing 10% were soft due to focus error.  My 5D frames look sharper because they are always in focus.  Good luck with this.  You might also want to consider a 1ds3 and a 35L, 50 1.4, 85L, and 135L.  About $11k-$12k USD.  Less pain, more pictures.
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James R Russell

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Need help H3D 31 vs Mamiya AFD II P30
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2008, 11:41:43 am »

Quote
I went through this in January and went with the P30+ in AFd mount over an H3D.  It was easier for me because I had an AFd and lenses.  I don't know for sure whether I would go with the AFd if I didn't already have one.  I think it really comes down to which workflow works for you and which camera clicks with you, because the digital hardware side of it is essentially the same.

So, which software did you like better?  Flexcolor/Phocus or C1?

Which camera?  The H has better AF and a max 800 shutter.  The AFd has crappy AF and up to 1/4000 shutter, but only syncs at 1/125.  Lenses are, mostly, a toss.

To be frank, I don't love any of the MF cameras with AF, except the Hy6 and the Rollei 6008.  And even these cameras are limited by not having a focal plane shutter................................................


 You might also want to consider a 1ds3 and a 35L, 50 1.4, 85L, and 135L.  About $11k-$12k USD.  Less pain, more pictures.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202087\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'll say this again, but when you walk in cash in hand and instead of finding that you have more options with medium format, you actually have less options than even 3 years ago, it does make just going to a 1ds3 seem painless.  Sure there are three almost new cameras (well semi- new) but all three are somewhat proprietary to the digital backs you purchase.

I know the makers are trying hard to offer the best solution, but in my mind the digital back maker that builds a real universal back that is available to buy TODAY for almost any camera will be the one that wins.

Then there is the process of what happens if you make the wrong choice in digital backs.  It's not a $5,000 loss, or a $4,000 upgrade to change to a new system, it can easily be a total of $30,000 and spending way too much time on e-bay trying to recover some of the lost investment.

I would like a leaf shutter option that my Contax doesn't offer, at least for the two times a year I need it, but not at the expense of giving up fast lenses and the focal plane shutter and defiantley not at the costs of selling $35,000 in camera backs and buying new one more time.

JR
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ynp

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Need help H3D 31 vs Mamiya AFD II P30
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2008, 01:02:49 pm »

Sinar eMotion IS the Universal back

Yevgeny
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j.miller

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Need help H3D 31 vs Mamiya AFD II P30
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2008, 01:16:29 pm »

Any of the Hasselblad CF or CFII-Series backs work wonderfully on the Contax 645AF platform. As with the Sinar range, the CF and CFII-Series backs incorporate an interchangeable mount system, which can be installed and change by the user. If your friend wanted to change camera platforms down the road, or decides he would like to use a 28mm lens, it is only a matter of investing in the "new" camera, and buying the appropriate mount (approx $500-$800) for his "new" camera. Thats about as universal as it gets!

Regards,

Jordan Miller


Quote
....I know the makers are trying hard to offer the best solution, but in my mind the digital back maker that builds a real universal back that is available to buy TODAY for almost any camera will be the one that wins....

JR
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« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 10:55:21 am by j.miller »
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James R Russell

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Need help H3D 31 vs Mamiya AFD II P30
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2008, 01:20:15 pm »

Quote
Sinar eMotion IS the Universal back

Yevgeny
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You may be right, though Sinar's information in the U.S. is rather limited, especially in the major markets.

I've only held two Sinars in my life (on both coasts) and could not click the shutter because both times the dealer didn't have the batteries charged.

In fact I'm being rather discreet in what the dealers actually said about the Sinar as one NY store just said, uh yea we sell them, but you'll have to order and that may take a while.

I strongly suggest if Sinar wants more play, especially in the U.S., they get their backs into rentals so people can actually test them before they buy.

They also need a program to get digital techs up to speed on their software and workflow.  

Once again, if someone walks into a store to buy any back, universal (they should all be universal) or non universal, they should be able to spend the cash and walk out with the back ready to go.

If not, they either buy nothing, or buy a Canon.

JR
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TMARK

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Need help H3D 31 vs Mamiya AFD II P30
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2008, 01:46:16 pm »

Quote
You may be right, though Sinar's information in the U.S. is rather limited, especially in the major markets.

I've only held two Sinars in my life (on both coasts) and could not click the shutter because both times the dealer didn't have the batteries charged.

In fact I'm being rather discreet in what the dealers actually said about the Sinar as one NY store just said, uh yea we sell them, but you'll have to order and that may take a while.

I strongly suggest if Sinar wants more play, especially in the U.S., they get their backs into rentals so people can actually test them before they buy.

They also need a program to get digital techs up to speed on their software and workflow. 

Once again, if someone walks into a store to buy any back, universal (they should all be universal) or non universal, they should be able to spend the cash and walk out with the back ready to go.

If not, they either buy nothing, or buy a Canon.

JR
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I don't really understand what is going on with Sinar in the US either.  I can walk into any big NYC photo retailer and walk out with $50k worth of Broncolor lighting, or a Sinar EL 100 belows for a P3, but they just don't have the Sinarbacks available.  When you ask they steer you towards Phase or Leaf.  This should be unacceptable as NYC is the commercial photo capital of the world, no? The largest market? Why should I get all my information about Sinarbacks and the Hy6 from this forum in the person of Thierry?  

One thing Blad does right is flood the distribution channels.  I know I can walk into Calumet and walk out with an H3DII-39 and four lenses.  Phase (it appears) has a just in time delivery from Denmark, so it may take a week to get you a back, but they will lend you one until your back arrives and youy can certainly check one out to your hearts content.  You can rent one in any major market.  Same goes for Leaf.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 02:16:20 pm by TMARK »
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Dustbak

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Need help H3D 31 vs Mamiya AFD II P30
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2008, 02:27:53 pm »

Quote
Any of the Hasselblad CF or CFII-Series backs work wonderfully on the Contax 645AF platform. As with the Sinar range, the CF and CFII-Series backs incorporate an interchangeable mount system, which can be installed and change by the user. If your friend wanted to change camera platforms down the road, or decides he would like to use a 28mm lens, it is only a matter of investing in the "new" camera, and buying the appropriate mount (approx $500-$800) for his "new" camera. Thats about as universal as it gets!

Regards,

Jordan Miller
DTG
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Jordan,


CFII ?????       Could you elaborate on that? It was kind of expected but I am hoping for the 'new & improved' IR filter, 3,5" screen, better positioned firewire port and....

a killer upgrade deal for my 384

I do agree on the Hasselblad CF being an extremely versatile back, not many people seem to be aware of this option. Most are only taking the H3 versions into consideration which is a pity.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 02:38:50 pm by Dustbak »
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j.miller

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Need help H3D 31 vs Mamiya AFD II P30
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2008, 02:38:43 pm »

In late April of this rear Hasselblad (quietly) began shipping an improved version of its CF-Series digital backs. Among the improvements in a larger 2.5" TFT screen (as apposed to the original 2.2" OLED), as well as an improved IR filter for greater performance with handling specular highlights.

The pricing has not changed, nor have the part numbers. These new backs are referred to as the CFII-Series (ie. CFII-22, CFII-39, etc.)

Regards,

Jordan Miller

Quote
Jordan,
CFII ?????       Could you elaborate on that?

I do agree on the Hasselblad CF being an extremely versatile back, not many people seem to be aware of this option. Most are only taking the H3 versions into consideration which is a pity.
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« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 10:55:10 am by j.miller »
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Dustbak

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Need help H3D 31 vs Mamiya AFD II P30
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2008, 02:41:36 pm »

Ok...

I just added some stuff that is pretty much in line with what you were about to post. No 3,5" screen, bummer but at least a lot better than the 2,2  Oled which is next to useless.

The IR filter, if the same as the H3II, will be a welcome addition in some cases.

Good to hear the pricing is the same, I guess that when I trade-up my 384 to the 39MS it still will be the same price as advertised in the customer care program.
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