Matching prints with monitor

[rgs]

I'm having a problem with prints being too dark compared to the monitor display. I have  a calibrated Dell CRT and usually print via PS2. The printer is a Canon iP4500 and I am using profiles from the manufacturers (Red River and Ilford) specifically for their paper and my printer.

Before a recent reformat, this setup worked well but now prints consistently dark. The color (as much as I can tell with the dark prints) seems good but the added density is a problem. I'm sure I've just missed something simple. Anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks!

RGS

[mcbroomf]

Double profiling?  Printer and your print application?

[Dale_Cotton]

Double profiling is one of the first things that occurs to me, too, when someone reports print/monitor mismatch, but my understanding is that there is also a colour cast involved when double profiling is the culprit.

Another obvious possibility is a change in the CRT profile, but that can be eliminated if you're using the same monitor profile as before the reformat, and/or prints from before the reformat match the monitor display. Which reminds me: have you verified in Photoshop that it's still reading the correct monitor profile? (Edit->Color Settings->RGB, scroll up.)

Beyond that I think we're going to need screen shots of your Photoshop color settings page and all the print dialogue pages. Unless of course you simply restored Photoshop from a back-up so all settings remain the same, in which case I'm scratching my head. Any voodoo practitioners among your enemies? ;) Or a cleaning lady who might have messed with the brightness or contrast controls on the monitor?

[rgs]

No double profiling. The printer settings are off. Profiling only through PS2. No cleaning lady either. As to the voodoo...

RGS

[mcbroomf]

I had a problem a long time ago (on an Epson, not a Canon) where somehow I was getting double profiled prints even though the printer was definitely NOT set up to profile.  The only way I found to fix it was to switch the application profiling OFF and turn the printer profiling ON.  Night and day difference and everything was OK.  I printed that way for several months then tried switching back and it was OK.  I never found out why but it has happened to others as well (I got the tip on a forum and passed it on here once and it fixed someone's problem).

As I say it was for an Epson but it may be worthwhile giving it a try.

[rgs]

I've done a little more testing. I can print with LightRoom (the v.2 beta) just fine using my profiles. The prints are a very close match to the monitor. But printing with PS2 is a different matter. The prints are much too dark.

I appreciate any suggestions. Thanks

RGS

[Chris_T]

I'm having a problem with prints being too dark compared to the monitor display. I have  a calibrated Dell CRT and usually print via PS2. The printer is a Canon iP4500 and I am using profiles from the manufacturers (Red River and Ilford) specifically for their paper and my printer.

Before a recent reformat, this setup worked well but now prints consistently dark. The color (as much as I can tell with the dark prints) seems good but the added density is a problem. I'm sure I've just missed something simple. Anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks!

RGS
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=201651\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What exactly do you mean by "a recent reformat"? If that's the only variable, it can be the prime suspect.

At this stage of color management, nothing is "simple".

[rgs]

I've had to reformat the HD so all software had to be reinstalled on a clean HD with a fresh OS. At this point, since I can print OK from LR, I have to think that something in PS must be set differently than before the reformat, but I have not yet been able to find it.

RGS

[Mark D Segal]

It's impossible to advise on this without a complete inventory of all your colour management settings (including the profiles) in Photoshop and in the the printer driver, the kind of paper you are using, etc. How old is your display and when was the last time you calibrated and profiled it? What luminance and gamma settings are you using for the display? If the CRT is old, it could be fading causing the image to loom lighter than it really is, which means that it would lead you to over darken it. The fact that your prints emerge OK using LR is not necessarily determinative of anything - it could be a happy accident of a "wrong" setting in LR that compensates for other problems, or this information could lead to looking for a wrong setting in PS. Hard to say without more info.

[Rob C]

This is all slightly above my head, in technical terms, because I have as simple a way of working as I can get; I even have two Brightness settings for the monitor: 42.1% for Hahnemuehle papers and 46% for Jesops! It works very well for b/w but needless to say, colour gets me into trouble a little bit, but I´m mainly into b/w so I put up with it.

However, this display of innocence is not what this post is about. The purpose of the post is to tell you of a strange phenomenon that I have experienced recently.

To set the scene, let me say that I use a single monitor which has a splitter to allow it to function with two computers: one is connected via broadband to the web and the other is NOT connected to the web and it is the one I use exclusively for image working.

Using the non-web connected one, I made a short CD of JPEG images which I wanted to send off to somebody. Playing this CD back on the computer where it was created gives me exactly what I saw on the computer prior to recording; putting the same CD into the web-connected computer, on the other hand, appears to play the CD back with a decidely brownish tinge to the images. These are all black/white pictures.

Can this mean that not only do monitors cause perception differences, but also computers have such an input? In other words, can you really be sure that an image you record and send to another person can EVER look the same, regardless of how well calibrated the screens?

Is this a unique experience or have others found the same or similar? Even  more to the point, is there a solution?

Rob C

[Chris_T]

It's impossible to advise on this without a complete inventory of all your colour management settings (including the profiles) in Photoshop and in the the printer driver, the kind of paper you are using, etc. How old is your display and when was the last time you calibrated and profiled it? What luminance and gamma settings are you using for the display? If the CRT is old, it could be fading causing the image to loom lighter than it really is, which means that it would lead you to over darken it. The fact that your prints emerge OK using LR is not necessarily determinative of anything - it could be a happy accident of a "wrong" setting in LR that compensates for other problems, or this information could lead to looking for a wrong setting in PS. Hard to say without more info.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202501\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Exactly. As a small remedy, I always save my PS preference and printer driver settings, and keep notes on how each print is made such as media, profiles, and intent, etc.

That's why I said color management as we know it today is anything but "simple". But many seem to be able to offer "solutions" before knowing what the problem is.

[Rob C]

That's why I said color management as we know it today is anything but "simple". But many seem to be able to offer "solutions" before knowing what the problem is.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202683\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not only far from simple, but bloody expensive to boot!

Rob C

[jackbingham]

42.1% for Hahnemuehle papers and 46% for Jesops! It works very well for b/w but needless to say, colour gets me into trouble a little bit, but I´m mainly into b/w so I put up with it.

If you are doing this brightness adjustment with the monitor hardware and not a different profile this is the beginning of a problem. Once you build a profile you don't want to make manual adjustments. However good print profiles will deal with this problem automatically.
Next, unless you have built profiles for both computers running this one monitor they are going to look very different. This has nothing to do with being web connected. The only factors involved here are the monitor, the video card and the profile. Depending on the monitor and card combinations you may need different manual color adjustments on the monitor for each computer which could make this arrangement unworkable. If this is a ddc monitor you would need to flush the monitor lut with the new one every time you switched from one computer to the other.

[Chris_T]

Not only far from simple, but bloody expensive to boot!

Rob C
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202732\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Expensive!? How about:

- Calibration hw + sw $$$$
- Profiles $$$
- Books and workshops $$$$
- Test prints and media $$$$ and counting
- Repeat the above every six months when something new comes to the market $$$$$
- Shrink visits $$$$ and counting
- (Optional for those with SO, attorney and separation fees $$$$$$)

For most, an adequate and much simpler solution would be a plugin/utility that can produce a single sheet test print with varying tonal and color adjustments applied at steps through the complete image, or applied to a selected area. After examining the test print, select the desired adjustment and print the full image.  Much like how we used to do in a traditional darkroom.

But such a plugin/utility would put all the above vendors out of business.

[Eric Myrvaagnes]

Chris,

There is a PS plugin that does much of what you want. It is Kirk Lyford's Test STrip Proofer. See TSProofer.com

In fact, Kirk had a previous test stripper which was bought out by OnOne Software.

-Eric

[Mark D Segal]

Chris,

There is a PS plugin that does much of what you want. It is Kirk Lyford's Test STrip Proofer. See TSProofer.com

In fact, Kirk had a previous test stripper which was bought out by OnOne Software.

-Eric
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202855\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Test-Strip was a useful plug-in at a time when colour management had not reached the degree of reliability it now has. At present it should be considered a second-best solution (consuming time and materials) to what would not be a problem with a correct colour management set-up, much as Jack Bingham discussed above.

[Mark D Segal]

Not only far from simple, but bloody expensive to boot!

Rob C
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202732\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Actually, printing life is much more expensive without it. Once you've invested in Photoshop the rest of colour management is really not that expensive. A good colorimeter and accopnaying software will cost in the range of 250~350 dollars. Most of the printer/paper profiles one needs are available free. Custom profiles, if one needs a couple of those, would cost in the range of 50~90 dollars each depending on who's making them. And that's it. The information one needs to set-up a colour managed workflow is available either free on the internet or for a very modest price buying the highly recommended Reichmann/Schewe "Camera to Print" video download. Getting on'es digital darkroom colour-managed really isn't that big a deal, but like anything one wants to do seriously and correctly, a commitment of time is definitely required.

[Rob C]

42.1% for Hahnemuehle papers and 46% for Jesops! It works very well for b/w but needless to say, colour gets me into trouble a little bit, but I´m mainly into b/w so I put up with it.

If you are doing this brightness adjustment with the monitor hardware and not a different profile this is the beginning of a problem. Once you build a profile you don't want to make manual adjustments. However good print profiles will deal with this problem automatically.
Next, unless you have built profiles for both computers running this one monitor they are going to look very different. This has nothing to do with being web connected. The only factors involved here are the monitor, the video card and the profile. Depending on the monitor and card combinations you may need different manual color adjustments on the monitor for each computer which could make this arrangement unworkable. If this is a ddc monitor you would need to flush the monitor lut with the new one every time you switched from one computer to the other.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202813\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Jack

Yes, I´m afraid I am doing the two percentages via the monitor´s controls. I have tried downloading profiles from either Hahnemuehle or HP - I´m no longer sure which it was, but one or the other, because the paper is theirs and the printer is an HP B9180. Frankly, the results were much worse than just using one of the profiles already in the outfit (HP Smooth Fine Art) as an approximation. I just gave up when it semed that even the makers were not very good at it.

On the other hand, the Jessops paper comes with a recommendation to use the HP Premium setting and it works a treat with it. As a matter of fact, were it not for the feeling that the Hahne will last longer, I rather like the Jessops colour (b/w) for skin (Heavyweight Photo Matt 230gsm) and would go with it without hesitation but for the above longevity issue.

I guess that what you are saying sort of confirms my fear that one can never know how another person will see the work that one puts out on a DVD. It begs the question of why manufacturing tolerances can´t be standardised so that all monitors/computers work the same way. Sure would save a lot of tears.

Thanks for your input.

Rob C

[Chris_T]

Chris,

There is a PS plugin that does much of what you want. It is Kirk Lyford's Test STrip Proofer. See TSProofer.com

In fact, Kirk had a previous test stripper which was bought out by OnOne Software.

-Eric
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202855\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks, Eric.

Is there also a link to the "previous test stripper"?

[Eric Myrvaagnes]

Thanks, Eric.

Is there also a link to the "previous test stripper"?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203551\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I forget the name of the plugin, and I'm out of town this week. When I get back, I'll look it up on my PC. I remember that Kirk's previous company was Vivid Details, which is now defunct. I do have info at home on the previous test stripper, which is now incorporated in one of OnOne's plugin packages.

Sorry to keep you in suspense.    

-Eric

P.S. Any more exhibits coming up soon?