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Author Topic: Can Stitching 1DsMk3 files = Med Format Quality?  (Read 54509 times)

MichaelEzra

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Can Stitching 1DsMk3 files = Med Format Quality?
« Reply #120 on: June 16, 2008, 04:45:35 pm »

Mamiya ZD files are 12 bits and store the same dynamic range as Aputs 22, which alows 16 bit precision.

So let's stop counting bits in terms of dynamic range;)

Bits represent accuracy of data, thats all.

Captured dynamic range is limited by the sensor design.
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203

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« Reply #121 on: June 16, 2008, 05:19:49 pm »

Quote
Mamiya ZD files are 12 bits and store the same dynamic range as Aputs 22, which alows 16 bit precision.

So let's stop counting bits in terms of dynamic range;)

Bits represent accuracy of data, thats all.

Captured dynamic range is limited by the sensor design.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=201959\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

So what exactly is being made more accurate/precise with the extra bits? As far as I know, it's just more levels/steps within the range of the chip, not more D.R.

Thanks.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2008, 05:21:18 pm by 203 »
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MichaelEzra

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Can Stitching 1DsMk3 files = Med Format Quality?
« Reply #122 on: June 16, 2008, 05:40:35 pm »

Quote
So what exactly is being made more accurate/precise with the extra bits? As far as I know, it's just more levels/steps within the range of the chip, not more D.R.

Thanks.
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- all R, G, B intensity values are recorded with greater precision, reflecting minute variations. When converting to lower number of bits, some variations are obscured and ranges of measured values become represented by single numbers instead.
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Panopeeper

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Can Stitching 1DsMk3 files = Med Format Quality?
« Reply #123 on: June 16, 2008, 05:42:36 pm »

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Mamiya ZD files are 12 bits and store the same dynamic range as Aputs 22, which alows 16 bit precision
The photographic dynamic range can not be separated from levels.

I don't have any Aptus raw files, but I do some Sinars, which show discernable details in the 11th stop.

I wonder if you have a ZD file showing details in the 11th stop (with wholly TWO levels to choose from?). If you think so, pls upload it.
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Gabor

Murray Fredericks

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Can Stitching 1DsMk3 files = Med Format Quality?
« Reply #124 on: June 16, 2008, 06:24:09 pm »

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You're kidding about this right? Astrophotographers gave up film years before we did for digital sensors because of long exposure needs.  There is no comparison to the detail in a digital file to a film file with long exposures. I shoot at ISO 1600 with my 1Ds and it looks better than anything shot on any 400 ASA film stock I ever used. Forget about any faster film. And the reciprocity and color shifts with film is absurd.
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No, Not kidding at all!

I shoot with 8" x 10" film, 400iso for long exposure work. The work is exhibited at 1.5m prints, The exposures are often 7-9 hours. The 1Ds (which I also own) cannot do that with quality and no MFDB is able to offer that kind of exposure.

There is no comparison to an 8" x 10" drum scan with a 1Ds file at that time, enlarged and printed that big...

I have been shooting with MFDB and 8" x 10" side by side and comparing scenes, all with highest quality methods for performing huge enlargements for exhibition. As soon as my back exposures increase past 10sec, the noise inherent in the files does not interpolate well...it turns 'mushy' while the film grain holds together.

Under 1 sec, and particularly with stitching, the MFDB is enlarging beautifully with results beyond even low iso 8" x 10".

Murray
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ejmartin

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Can Stitching 1DsMk3 files = Med Format Quality?
« Reply #125 on: June 16, 2008, 09:59:34 pm »

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I don't give a fig for the engineering definition of DR. I am using a camera for creating images.

Well, then, perhaps it's time you paid attention.   The engineering definition of DR is actually quite closely related to any other definition using shadow SNR of raw data to determine the noise floor, and determining DR as the ratio of raw saturation to said noise floor.

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I'm afraid you misunderstood what I posted. "Canon" is throwing away DR, because they do not record all the possible data, which is in the sensor.
There is no law requiring, that only a 1/16th filled well can be read and converted with higher amplification. What about converting exposing to the right measured for base ISO and converting the now higher filled wells with high amplification?
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There is a defined voltage corresponding to the maximum digitized output of the ADC.  The ISO gain determines what output voltage corresponds to a given number of photons in the sensel.  If you increase the ISO, a smaller number of photons yields that saturating voltage input to the ADC.  So if a full well yields this saturating voltage at ISO 100, then a 1/16 full well yields this voltage at ISO 1600.  There is no process involving a single read of the sensor data that will recover the data in wells more than 1/16 full, if you have set the amplifier gain to ISO 1600.  Simple as that.  As I wrote previously, Canon engineers are not exceedingly stupid (at least on this point), they do know that ADC's saturate at defined input voltages.

So please explain more precisely how you think that Canon is supposed to extract this data that is in the sensor, in a way consistent with the operating principles of amplifiers and analog-to-digital converters.
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emil

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« Reply #126 on: June 16, 2008, 11:07:29 pm »

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Well, then, perhaps it's time you paid attention.   The engineering definition of DR is actually quite closely related to any other definition using shadow SNR of raw data to determine the noise floor, and determining DR as the ratio of raw saturation to said noise floor.
There is a defined voltage corresponding to the maximum digitized output of the ADC.  The ISO gain determines what output voltage corresponds to a given number of photons in the sensel.  If you increase the ISO, a smaller number of photons yields that saturating voltage input to the ADC.  So if a full well yields this saturating voltage at ISO 100, then a 1/16 full well yields this voltage at ISO 1600.  There is no process involving a single read of the sensor data that will recover the data in wells more than 1/16 full, if you have set the amplifier gain to ISO 1600.  Simple as that.  As I wrote previously, Canon engineers are not exceedingly stupid (at least on this point), they do know that ADC's saturate at defined input voltages.

So please explain more precisely how you think that Canon is supposed to extract this data that is in the sensor, in a way consistent with the operating principles of amplifiers and analog-to-digital converters.
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You guys get it all worked out yet??
:+}
Snook
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Ray

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« Reply #127 on: June 16, 2008, 11:41:38 pm »

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There is a defined voltage corresponding to the maximum digitized output of the ADC.  The ISO gain determines what output voltage corresponds to a given number of photons in the sensel.  If you increase the ISO, a smaller number of photons yields that saturating voltage input to the ADC.  So if a full well yields this saturating voltage at ISO 100, then a 1/16 full well yields this voltage at ISO 1600.  There is no process involving a single read of the sensor data that will recover the data in wells more than 1/16 full, if you have set the amplifier gain to ISO 1600.  Simple as that.  As I wrote previously, Canon engineers are not exceedingly stupid (at least on this point), they do know that ADC's saturate at defined input voltages.
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Emil,
One point I find interesting here is that not all cameras seem to employ this analog, pre-A/D amplification of the voltage.

Edmund has reported that his P45+ produces at least equally good images after  underexposing at base ISO, compared to the same exposure used at a higher ISO.

John Sheehy also reported noticing this effect in certain P&S cameras. In other words, the false ISO settings, such as ISO 3200 in most Canon DSLRs, and ISO 12,800 and 25,600 in the Nikon D3, apply across the board in some models of digital cameras. Any setting above base ISO is essentially a false ISO that ultimately serves no purpose that can't be achieved in post processing.

One also wonders, if the analog signal can be boosted prior to A/D conversion to result in a higher ISO with less shadow noise than the unboosted, underexposed data at base ISO, why cannot a similar boost  be applied at base ISO to lift the shadows? Is it simply a matter of the electronics not be sufficiently robust to handle the greater voltages?
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Panopeeper

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« Reply #128 on: June 16, 2008, 11:56:23 pm »

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The engineering definition of DR is actually quite closely related to any other definition using shadow SNR of raw data to determine the noise floor, and determining DR as the ratio of raw saturation to said noise floor
This is not of use for me. I am not shooting plain, unicolor surfaces all the day (well, I am sometimes, but only for test/demo purposes).

For me there is no photography without details, and that is the main point. I see the limit of the camera there, where it can not reproduce fine details any more. This includes the limit of noisiness as well, but it is more.

Therefor my camera needs to have enough levels to produce details. Of course it is a requirement as well, that those levels are useful, but that's a different, additional issue.

Quote
There is a defined voltage corresponding to the maximum digitized output of the ADC.  The ISO gain determines what output voltage corresponds to a given number of photons in the sensel.  If you increase the ISO, a smaller number of photons yields that saturating voltage input to the ADC.  So if a full well yields this saturating voltage at ISO 100, then a 1/16 full well yields this voltage at ISO 1600.  There is no process involving a single read of the sensor data that will recover the data in wells more than 1/16 full, if you have set the amplifier gain to ISO 1600.
Great. Now you have explained how it is working now in DSLRs, not why it is working that way.

How do you think most MFDBs are working? How do they realize the ISO gain?
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Gabor

josayeruk

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« Reply #129 on: June 17, 2008, 02:07:45 am »

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You guys get it all worked out yet??
:+}
Snook
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Yep, must be where I am going wrong!  
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rethmeier

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« Reply #130 on: June 17, 2008, 02:58:02 am »

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Willem Rethmeier
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hdomke

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« Reply #131 on: June 17, 2008, 09:18:35 am »

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You guys get it all worked out yet??
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=201996\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have to admit I find the array of opinions a bit bewildering. When talking about the differences between medium format DSLRs and 35mm DSLR cameras can anyone provide an authoritative answer to any of these questions:

1. Is there anything to support the ideas that MF images are more 3D than those created with 35mm?

2. Could it be that the 3D effect that people refer to is simply that there is a narrower depth of focus at a given aperture for larger format cameras and that means that background is more likely to be out-of-focus. Is that what creates the sense of 3D?

3. What is the relationship between the dynamic range of the print and the bit-depth of the image that you get from the camera?

4. Do you know of any reason that the dynamic range of the print from a MF camera should be greater than that from a 35mm camera?

5. Is there any benefit that might be seen on print from cameras that claim to be 14-bit or 16-bit instead of 12-bit?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 09:19:13 am by hdomke »
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Henry

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ejmartin

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« Reply #132 on: June 17, 2008, 10:03:47 am »

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So what exactly is being made more accurate/precise with the extra bits? As far as I know, it's just more levels/steps within the range of the chip, not more D.R.

Thanks.
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An analogy may be of some help here:

Suppose a bunch of people are timing a race with stopwatches.  The people timing the race have different degrees of hand/eye coordination, lag time in pressing the stopwatch, etc. The times they will record will thus fall over a range of values. This range of values is a measure of the level of ACCURACY of the recorded race time; suppose this range is a tenth of a second.

Now, what level of PRECISION of stopwatch is needed to time the race? Clearly, a stopwatch that records down to the nearest second is needfully imprecise and therefore inaccurate. A stopwatch that records in hundredths of a second is overkill, since the last digit doesn't carry any meaningful information -- the time is only accurate to the nearest tenth of a second. A stopwatch which records in tenths of a second is just about right -- neither overspec'd nor too imprecise for the job.

Notice I chose my words carefully, to distinguish accuracy from precision. A stopwatch measuring in the hundredths is more precise than one measuring in the tenths, but it is no more accurate since the whole timing accuracy is limited by that of the person using the watch (so long as the precision as as good as or slightly better than the person's accuracy).

This is the nub of the argument about bit depth too. Bit depth is precision of recording the illumination level of a pixel; noise is the limiting factor in the accuracy of the recorded data. Having bit depth that exceeds the noise is having more precision but not necessarily more accuracy. The substance of the debate is how many bits are enough precision given the current state of technology with regard to the noise limiting the accuracy.  

On average, the error in precision in digitizing the signal from the sensor is 1/sqrt[12]~.29 of the quantization step size, a little less than a third of a raw level.  The accuracy of the raw data is limited by the noise of the electronics, and is slightly over one 12-bit raw level at low ISO on the best DSLR's (Nikon D3, Canon 1-series); I haven't seen much data on MFDB's.  Thus 12-bit data is sufficient to record to the level of the accuracy of the data from a single read of the sensor of DSLR's; if one wanted to be really conservative, 13-bit data is ample but that 13th bit is largely noise.  Any bit depth beyond that, and the extra bits are essentially random noise.
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emil

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« Reply #133 on: June 17, 2008, 10:08:32 am »

OK, this is really getting more and more off the wall, but I am interested in answers to #4 and #5 in Henry's post just above...I am on my way to demo a Phase back as we speak, and I am bringing my 1Ds3 to shoot some side-by side.
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ejmartin

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« Reply #134 on: June 17, 2008, 10:53:02 am »

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Emil,
One point I find interesting here is that not all cameras seem to employ this analog, pre-A/D amplification of the voltage.

Edmund has reported that his P45+ produces at least equally good images after  underexposing at base ISO, compared to the same exposure used at a higher ISO.

John Sheehy also reported noticing this effect in certain P&S cameras. In other words, the false ISO settings, such as ISO 3200 in most Canon DSLRs, and ISO 12,800 and 25,600 in the Nikon D3, apply across the board in some models of digital cameras. Any setting above base ISO is essentially a false ISO that ultimately serves no purpose that can't be achieved in post processing.

With a fixed exposure, the difference between using a higher ISO versus underexposing at a lower ISO and amplifying in software post-capture lies in the additional noise/error sources that get amplified.  Basically, any amplification takes as input not just the signal but also any noise that was added upstream in the signal processing chain.  The signal processing chain is

sensor readout > ISO amplification > quantization > post-capture manipulation

Thus, using the higher ISO, only the noise added by the electronics doing the sensor readout is amplified.  Amplifying post-capture by software multiplication of the digitized raw data, one is amplifying in addition the noise of the ISO amplifier as well as the ADC, as well as the quantization error (the difference between the analog input to the ADC and the nearest quantized level that it can be digitized to).

To the extent that the ISO amplifier noise, ADC noise, and quantization error are small relative to the overall noise level, one can get away with amplifying post-capture.  If they are large contributors to the noise level (as they are in deep shadows at low ISO in Canon DSLR's, for instance), one pays a substantial price for the underexposure.  GLuijk had a nice demonstration of this in a recent thread for which I'm the OP.  

One reason to use a higher bit depth is to eliminate quantization error as an issue; average quantization error is about .3 raw level, so if you are going to implement higher ISO as a post-capture software manipulation (as I'm told several MFDB's do) it makes some sense to use 16-bit capture instead of 12-bit -- quantization error is reduced by a factor of 16 and is completely negligible relative to other noise sources.   Of course this doesn't change the fact that all those extra bits are merely giving a refined specification of those other noise sources, and not really helping to record the signal more accurately.

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One also wonders, if the analog signal can be boosted prior to A/D conversion to result in a higher ISO with less shadow noise than the unboosted, underexposed data at base ISO, why cannot a similar boost  be applied at base ISO to lift the shadows? Is it simply a matter of the electronics not be sufficiently robust to handle the greater voltages?
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Because in current designs the level of amplification is specified ahead of time, for all pixels being read; to do what you are suggesting, one would have to apply a different boost to pixels with few photons captured vs those with many photons captured.  One might do this by splitting the signal and sending it to two separate amplifiers, one set to low amplification for the highlights and another to high amplification for the shadows.  Quantize both, then combine the two using the high amplification output to replace the shadows in the low amplification output.  The cost would be an extra amplifier/ADC combination (some cameras, like the D3, have parallel analog front end processors; the number would have to be doubled) and the processing overhead to combine the two data streams.  If this could be done with no further introduction of noise, the Canon 1D3/1Ds3 and Nikon D3 would each gain about two stops of DR (and finally 14-bit capture would be justified, perhaps even 15-bit).
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 11:16:23 am by ejmartin »
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emil

ejmartin

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« Reply #135 on: June 17, 2008, 11:03:30 am »

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For me there is no photography without details, and that is the main point. I see the limit of the camera there, where it can not reproduce fine details any more. This includes the limit of noisiness as well, but it is more.

Therefore my camera needs to have enough levels to produce details. Of course it is a requirement as well, that those levels are useful, but that's a different, additional issue.

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The number of discernable levels IS the S/N ratio -- you can't tell that two levels which are different are telling you that they came from a different light level in the scene being photographed, unless the difference of levels is enough larger than the amount of noise present.   This is why I said the lower end of DR is determined by one's criterion for an acceptable S/N ratio in shadows (which is in turn closely related to the noise in shadows, which is why I stated that engineering DR is closely tied to one's notion of "useful" DR).

Noise is not image detail, even if it's quantized in an exquisite fineness of levels.
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emil

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« Reply #136 on: June 17, 2008, 04:53:13 pm »

I have just done a side-by-side test of the Phase P30+ and the 1Ds3. In my opinion the files look very similar to one anther processed in C1 4.1 in terms of look, sharpness, etc (though the Canon camera was further away than the Phase, so no real resolution test here. And the Phase does show some other very subtle advantages - but these are only seen at major pixel peeping levels.)

What struck me though is that the shadow detail, even when boosted to +2 exp. during RAW conversion, or within photoshop, shows no visible advantage in terms of shadow detail for the back.

(each at ISO 100, f9, no N.R. *and plus 2 exposure comp during RAW conversion*, just to see the difference one will encounter during extreme levels adjustments)

(I used to use Leaf backs, am now using 1Ds3 and renting MF backs, and may buy another back soon...)

Other notes on the Phase:
Lens feels much better than older mamiya 645 as far as I rememher, AF is good – way better than the Contax AF in a dimly lit room. The Contax hunted repeatedly…

Viewfinder seems about as large as the Canons, though the Canon is brighter. (50mm 1.4 on the Canon, 80mm on the Phase.)

Phase kit is a little heavier than the Canon with 50 1.4.

Operation of the Phase is very fast – seems like about a second between exposures

Zooming and scrolling on the Phase is awkward at best.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 05:01:23 pm by 203 »
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Chris Livsey

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« Reply #137 on: June 17, 2008, 05:01:55 pm »

Quote
You guys get it all worked out yet??
:+}
Snook
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No! We need a sharper pencil. Bicubic sharpener perhaps  
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hdomke

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« Reply #138 on: June 17, 2008, 05:34:10 pm »

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... plus 2 exposure comp during RAW conversion
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Are you saying that when you converted the RAW file that you adjusted the exposure level up 2 f/stops in the software?

If so, I guess that is a sure way to bring out noise in the shadows, but it sure seems extreme.

You said you are considering buying another MF back. Has this test changed your opinion? From what you said the difference between the Phase P30+ and the 1Ds3 were negligible, right?

If so, why would you buy a MF system?

(this is the issue that I am dealing with, so I would like your take on it).
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Henry

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« Reply #139 on: June 17, 2008, 05:47:43 pm »

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Are you saying that when you converted the RAW file that you adjusted the exposure level up 2 f/stops in the software?

If so, I guess that is a sure way to bring out noise in the shadows, but it sure seems extreme.

You said you are considering buying another MF back. Has this test changed your opinion? From what you said the difference between the Phase P30+ and the 1Ds3 were negligible, right?

If so, why would you buy a MF system?

(this is the issue that I am dealing with, so I would like your take on it).
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Yes, +2 is extreme. I only went to +2 because +1 or +.5 did not show any bad issues in either camera in terms of shadow banding, etc. In short, I was looking for this 14-bit vs 16-bit medium format advantage which is being discussed in this thread and elsewhere on a daily basis. *People  say that they have better shadow detail from their MF backs.* I saw no advantage there today.

And for the record, I usually get my exposure pretty correct during the shoot, and have only ever needed to boost shadows by around +2/3 when I had shot a cashmere sweater campaign, and later the A.D.s decided they wanted a lighter look...so yes, +2 is EXTREME in my opinion. It should therefore easily show differences in shadow detail, right?


I do have older Leaf back, which I no longer use. And I will do some more testing with the Phase p30+ and some others to see about the differences in detail, etc. (this test was conducted with strobes at a dealer, and during the demo the Phase had to be unplugged and reattached a couple times, as it had inexplicably frozen up.)

And yes, for the most part the differences were very negligible, IMO, especially since you are effectively looking at a 7' or 10' print from 12" away, as rendered on your 72dpi monitor.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 06:03:54 pm by 203 »
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