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Author Topic: Can Stitching 1DsMk3 files = Med Format Quality?  (Read 54488 times)

Nick Rains

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Can Stitching 1DsMk3 files = Med Format Quality?
« Reply #100 on: June 16, 2008, 07:23:41 am »

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I contacted Dr. Emil Martinec  about his fascinating paper: Noise, Dynamic Range and Bit Depth in Digital SLRs to see if he would answer the questions. He was kind enough to email this reply to me:
1. In the real world, will prints from a 16-bit capture show more dynamic range than from a 14-bit capture?

I know of no DSLR that would benefit from 16-bit capture.  There are some MFDB's that use 16-bit capture, and I have read that they use the extra bits not because of increased dynamic range, but rather to do ISO settings in software after capture rather than via amplification in hardware during capture.

The problem is that current DSLR's have dynamic range that is limited by noise in the camera electronics.  The best-in-class, the Nikon D3, is one the verge of meriting more than 12 bits, but certainly not more than 14.
2. What are the implications of this paper on "Expose to the Right"?

Expose to the right is a good mantra for better image quality (assuming it is done with proper attention paid to preserving those highlights one wants to preserve).  It is shorthand for "higher signal with less noise is better", or even more succinctly, "the more light, the better".  The point is that the more light the camera captures, the less apparent the effects of noise are going to be.  For fixed ISO, this means that slower shutter speed/wider aperture allow more light to be captured, and this pushes the histogram to the right.  If shutter speed/aperture are determined (say by DOF considerations, or freezing motion), then there is an advantage (mostly at low ISO, and especially on Canon DSLR's) to using higher ISO to push the histogram to the right, but the effect is less pronounced than using shutter speed/aperture to push the histogram to the right at fixed ISO.
3. What are the implications of this paper on selecting the right ISO in low-light situations?

I would say that for most DSLR's and raw capture, there is no point in going above ISO 1600; there is little difference between underexposed ISO 1600 (with exposure compensation during raw conversion) vs. proper exposure at higher ISO, assuming the raw converter being used properly implements exposure compensation (sadly, not all do).  There is almost no penalty as far as noise is concerned.  And a benefit is increased highlight headroom.

cheers, emil

Note: Dr. Martinec is a Physics Professor at the University of Chicago.
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Succinct answers indeed - all of this is in the paper of course, but it's good to have it summarised.
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Nick Rains
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eronald

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Can Stitching 1DsMk3 files = Med Format Quality?
« Reply #101 on: June 16, 2008, 08:07:59 am »

With straight and clear answers like these I guess Dr. M won't have a career in politics.

I'm going to tape over the ISO button on my cameras

Edmund



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I contacted Dr. Emil Martinec  about his fascinating paper:
Note: Dr. Martinec is a Physics Professor at the University of Chicago.
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Panopeeper

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Can Stitching 1DsMk3 files = Med Format Quality?
« Reply #102 on: June 16, 2008, 09:55:41 am »

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I know of no DSLR that would benefit from 16-bit capture.  There are some MFDB's that use 16-bit capture, and I have read that they use the extra bits not because of increased dynamic range, but rather to do ISO settings in software after capture rather than via amplification in hardware during capture

I strongly disagree with that. The difference between DSLRs and MFDBs is not primarily in the sensor technology but in the approach of presenting the data.

I described in #84 the relevant difference between these approaches. I am convinced, that Canon at al could achieve MFDB-like dynamic range any time with 16bit raw data.
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Gabor

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Can Stitching 1DsMk3 files = Med Format Quality?
« Reply #103 on: June 16, 2008, 10:30:22 am »

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I strongly disagree with that. The difference between DSLRs and MFDBs is not primarily in the sensor technology but in the approach of presenting the data.

I described in #84 the relevant difference between these approaches. I am convinced, that Canon at al could achieve MFDB-like dynamic range any time with 16bit raw data.
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Gabor,
Could you please explain on what grounds you disagree with Dr. Martinec regarding bit depth?
Dr. Martinec has presented a very careful analysis of his reasoning in the paper. Do you see a flaw with his analysis?
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Henry

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josayeruk

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Can Stitching 1DsMk3 files = Med Format Quality?
« Reply #104 on: June 16, 2008, 11:09:42 am »

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Gabor,
Could you please explain on what grounds you disagree with Dr. Martinec regarding bit depth?
Dr. Martinec has presented a very careful analysis of his reasoning in the paper. Do you see a flaw with his analysis?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=201898\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Mmmm... has he actually ever picked up a camera and taken a photograph though?

You can show me all the physics, maths, voodoo papers in the world.

hdomke, you started this thread asking for advice from Medium format owners, and anything they have offered you seem to reject?  Therefore why ask the question.

A practicing photographer is more likely to give you the answers based on their experience as opposed to a science paper.  

Good grief... lets go round again.  

Jo S.x
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Panopeeper

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Can Stitching 1DsMk3 files = Med Format Quality?
« Reply #105 on: June 16, 2008, 11:12:39 am »

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Could you please explain on what grounds you disagree with Dr. Martinec regarding bit depth?
This is obviously somewhat "shocking". I tried to explain it in my #84; now I try a different way.

Let's take the Canon 40D as an example, based on DPReview's measurement  (the 1DsMkII has not been reviewed yet). I don't agree with their result in general, they are JPEG based, which does not have much to do with the camera's capablity, but their result is suitable for the explanation.

1. The 40D loses exactly one stop from the highlights by one stop ISO increase from ISO 200 to ISO 1600. This does not appear that way in DPReview, because the middle gray moves as well. However, the fact remains, that ISO 400 cuts off the very top stop captured by the sensors.

2. DPR measured a loss of *total* dynamic range as 0.3EV from 200 to 400, 0.1EV from 400 to 800 and 0.1EV GAIN (this is ridiculous) from 800 to 1600. Together, the loss from 200 to 1600 is only 0.3EV. I am "generous", I assume 1 full stop loss.

3. The loss in the highlights zwischen 200 and 1600 is *three* stops, but the total loss is only *one* stop. This means, that the sensor can deliver all together *two* stops higher DR than it is doing at ISO 200.

4. Why does the 40D NOT deliver this higher DR? Because it delivers always a *crop* of the total dynamic range. With ISO200 it cuts off two stops from the shadows, with ISO1600 it cuts off three stops of the highlights.

This is, what most MFDBs are doing differently: they deliver everything in one - but that requires the 16bits.

If the 40D converted the ISO1600 data in 13 bits and added three bits to keep the highlights, its dynamic range would be two stops larger and I would not have to throw away some of my shots I just made in the Rocky Mountains, because the 40D could not capture the scenery even with the best possible exposure.
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Gabor

hdomke

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Can Stitching 1DsMk3 files = Med Format Quality?
« Reply #106 on: June 16, 2008, 11:22:48 am »

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you started this thread asking for advice from Medium format owners, and anything they have offered you seem to reject?  Therefore why ask the question.
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Jo S.x,
I am not rejecting the advice I am getting here! Actually, the advice I've been getting is quite diverse and thought provoking. There are a lot of conflicting opinions. I'm trying to sort it out.

The ideas on bit-depth by Dr. Martinec seem to be very carefully thought out. Even though I (like you) prefer real world experience to a theoretical explanation, I can't easily dismiss what Dr. Martinec says. It is very specific.
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Henry

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Dustbak

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Can Stitching 1DsMk3 files = Med Format Quality?
« Reply #107 on: June 16, 2008, 12:00:19 pm »

I use Nikon (D300) and MFDB (Hasselblad). In single shot there is no match between the DSLR and my MFDB. The MFDB generates much nicer images and is able to cope with certain situations much better than the DSLR (situations with a lot of contrast).

I can elaborate on how much they are better, sharper, etc.. but don't feel the real need because some of these things (maybe even most) are subjective in some way.

If I can I take the MFDB. If I cannot I use the Nikon (bad light, travelling light, fast moving stuff, plain lazy, etc..).

Both can be used to stitch. When stitching is possible in most cases you can also stitch with the MFDB in which case it generates a much nicer image again than a stitched DSLR file.

I don't theorize about whether a DSLR could have a DR as a MFDB if.... I just look at the files I get from my cameras.

Both machines have their uses & purpose. If you really want to know whether you should get a MFDB try a couple with various bodies/configurations to get some idea what you are facing.
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stevesanacore

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Can Stitching 1DsMk3 files = Med Format Quality?
« Reply #108 on: June 16, 2008, 12:47:11 pm »

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Nick,

The place where film takes over, however, is in long exposure land. As soon as long exposure noise from the chip appears - the interpolation turns the file to mush...

Murray
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=201813\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You're kidding about this right? Astrophotographers gave up film years before we did for digital sensors because of long exposure needs.  There is no comparison to the detail in a digital file to a film file with long exposures. I shoot at ISO 1600 with my 1Ds and it looks better than anything shot on any 400 ASA film stock I ever used. Forget about any faster film. And the reciprocity and color shifts with film is absurd.
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stevesanacore

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Can Stitching 1DsMk3 files = Med Format Quality?
« Reply #109 on: June 16, 2008, 12:51:12 pm »

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I recently did a side-by-side comparison of the Hasselblad H3D2 with 39 MP back and my Canon 1DsMk3.
I took each file of the exact same shot and enlarged them to be 10-feet wide.
I then printed a 40-inch wide piece from the center of each images and compared them.
The Hasselblad was clearly sharper when viewed from 10-inches away. From 2 feet or further I could see no difference.

Still, I would like that kind of quality. Is it reasonable to expect that I could get that by stitching three of my Canon files into one? (see attached picture).

Shouldn't they be equivalent?
Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome.
[attachment=7030:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=201341\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


The weakest link here is the optics. Try using a Leica lens on the 1Ds for a better test and you may find much less difference. As good as Canon L lenses are, they are not good enough for the new sensors yet. The nicest feature of our Canon's is that we can use many different brand lenses for work that demands the finest detail.
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ejmartin

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Can Stitching 1DsMk3 files = Med Format Quality?
« Reply #110 on: June 16, 2008, 01:34:39 pm »

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This is obviously somewhat "shocking". I tried to explain it in my #84; now I try a different way.

Let's take the Canon 40D as an example, based on DPReview's measurement  (the 1DsMkII has not been reviewed yet). I don't agree with their result in general, they are JPEG based, which does not have much to do with the camera's capablity, but their result is suitable for the explanation.

1. The 40D loses exactly one stop from the highlights by one stop ISO increase from ISO 200 to ISO 1600. This does not appear that way in DPReview, because the middle gray moves as well. However, the fact remains, that ISO 400 cuts off the very top stop captured by the sensors.

2. DPR measured a loss of *total* dynamic range as 0.3EV from 200 to 400, 0.1EV from 400 to 800 and 0.1EV GAIN (this is ridiculous) from 800 to 1600. Together, the loss from 200 to 1600 is only 0.3EV. I am "generous", I assume 1 full stop loss.

Point 1 is correct.  To be more precise on point 2, engineering DR (raw saturation/read noise) on the 40D is 11.3 stops at ISO 100, 11.3 at ISO 200, 10.9 at ISO 400, 10.2 at ISO 800 and 9.3 at ISO 1600.  Are the DPR numbers you are quoting based on measurements of raw or jpeg?  They do both; the jpeg numbers are rather devoid of content.  The raw numbers are the result of a somewhat flawed procedure.  Some people prefer a notion of "useful" DR which is somewhat more subjective, but strongly correlated to, engineering DR.

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3. The loss in the highlights zwischen 200 and 1600 is *three* stops, but the total loss is only *one* stop. This means, that the sensor can deliver all together *two* stops higher DR than it is doing at ISO 200.

Loss of engineering DR is two stops, compared to exposure change of three stops between ISO 200 and 1600.

Quote
4. Why does the 40D NOT deliver this higher DR? Because it delivers always a *crop* of the total dynamic range. With ISO200 it cuts off two stops from the shadows, with ISO1600 it cuts off three stops of the highlights.

This is a misunderstanding of the capture process.   Canon is not "throwing away" DR by not recording it (subject to a caveat).  ISO 200 doesn't have more DR in shadows because the sensor readout is limited by the noise of the variable gain amplifier that implements the ISO setting.  At high ISO this is a rather minor component of read noise, but is the dominant effect at low ISO.

The caveat is that, because sensor readout is a non-destructive procedure in CMOS technology, one could preserve the state of the sensor while doing a read of the capture data at low ISO amplification, then do another read of the same data using high ISO amplification, and finally combine the two reads in an in-camera version of HDR blending to get at the full DR delivered by the sensels.  This would combine the total DR in the way you are imagining, but it would cost a factor of two in buffer capacity and be a big drag on processing speed.  Not out of the question for the near future though.

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This is, what most MFDBs are doing differently: they deliver everything in one - but that requires the 16bits.

No.  They simply record more bits, which does not in and of itself confer more DR.  They do not garner more DR due to that; even the caveat above is not available, since a CCD sensor cannot be read non-destructively.  

To the extent that the sensels are gathering more photons, there may be an improvement in quality over a larger portion of the DR for MFDB's over the 40D, since the S/N ratio climbs out of being dominated by read noise faster for larger photosites (this is at the pixel level; smaller pixels need not be under such a disadvantage when compared on a fixed spatial scale instead of the pixel scale).

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If the 40D converted the ISO1600 data in 13 bits and added three bits to keep the highlights, its dynamic range would be two stops larger and I would not have to throw away some of my shots I just made in the Rocky Mountains, because the 40D could not capture the scenery even with the best possible exposure.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=201903\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Again, this is a misunderstanding of how the circuitry that processes the sensor data works.  It's not simply a question of adding more bits to record overamplified highlights, camera company engineers are not so naive.  The ISO gain amplifier and the ADC are matched to provide as much DR as they are capable of.


Emil Martinec
« Last Edit: June 16, 2008, 01:38:32 pm by ejmartin »
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emil

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Can Stitching 1DsMk3 files = Med Format Quality?
« Reply #111 on: June 16, 2008, 01:55:50 pm »

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Mmmm... has he actually ever picked up a camera and taken a photograph though?

Yes, I have in fact.  That doesn't prevent me from having an interest in the technical design aspects of the equipment I use.  The two are not mutually exclusive.  In fact, a quantitative understanding of the properties of one's camera leads to better informed decisions about exposure.

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You can show me all the physics, maths, voodoo papers in the world.

Apparently it wouldn't help you as much as it does those who understand that math and physics are not voodoo.

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A practicing photographer is more likely to give you the answers based on their experience as opposed to a science paper. 

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Practical experience and quantitative testing both have useful things to say, especially in an area such as digital photography that combines both artful craft and sophisticated technology.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2008, 02:13:40 pm by ejmartin »
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Chris Livsey

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« Reply #112 on: June 16, 2008, 01:57:02 pm »

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I am convinced, that Canon at al could achieve MFDB-like dynamic range any time with 16bit raw data.
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And they do not do this because ???

Serious question BTW.
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Can Stitching 1DsMk3 files = Med Format Quality?
« Reply #113 on: June 16, 2008, 02:15:26 pm »

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And they do not do this because ???

Serious question BTW.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=201927\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have read they do not do this because making the file 16-bit would make the RAW files even larger (and slower to process), with no real-world improvement in image quality.
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hdomke

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Can Stitching 1DsMk3 files = Med Format Quality?
« Reply #114 on: June 16, 2008, 02:31:04 pm »

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I recently did a side-by-side comparison of the Hasselblad H3D2 with 39 MP back and my Canon 1DsMk3.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The following is from an email friend of mine, a professional nature photographer [a href=\"http://www.peterhaigh.com/]Peter Haigh[/url]. He is a self-described Luddite, so he asked me to post his responses to the discussions on this forum. Most of his nature photographs are taken with medium format film. He had three areas that caught his eye:
1. Greater 3D effect
... some chap talked about the greater 3D effect he got from medium format digital capture.  That really caught my eye because what has stood out to me and been one of the main factors in not going Canon is the images have always seemed so ‘flat.’  Now, obviously, a photo is 2D but I’ve always thought film gave the sense of greater depth than the Canon. Film and Cibachrome prints had a great sense of ‘depth’ if you will — a fullness.  Although a good chunk of that goes away upon scanning and printing on the Epson, I still feel there is more left than from 35mm digital capture — and this is one of the reasons I have remained a holdout.  (I might add I have experienced the same flatness with CDs and that is one reason I prefer vinyl which is ‘fuller’ in its presentation. So, the Hassie might bring back some of that depth.

2. Greater Bit-depth
A second factor that kept me out of 35mm digital capture was that previously the Canon (and all others I know of) were 12 bit capture — your new Canon is apparently 14 bit capture.  My older Nikon scanner was 14 bit and I had, at times, some problems with banding in areas of very smooth gradation of tonality especially when doing some substantial adjustment in Photoshop.  My new scanner is 16 bit and I haven’t run into that problem.  It was only rarely that it happened but one hates to be limited in what they can do with the image.

3. Dynamic Range
The third factor brought up in the postings was dynamic range.  I looked up the specs for both cameras and couldn’t find the dynamic range, but greater dynamic range is always a benefit — mainly in the shadows.  The greater the dynamic range the less shadows tend to block up and, to the extent that they do, the less noisy they get when you apply Shadows/Highlights — mainly because you don’t have to apply it as strongly.

All in all, and based solely on paper as opposed to comparing output, I would think the Hassie would probably give you better images AND save some time and energy with stitching.  (Although expensive, I’m confident it wouldn’t break your bank.)  The above comments are based on my general experience (mostly subjective I might add) .  So, at most you get what you pay for and I ain’t seen no check in the mail yet.
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Henry

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Panopeeper

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Can Stitching 1DsMk3 files = Med Format Quality?
« Reply #115 on: June 16, 2008, 02:40:31 pm »

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Loss of engineering DR is two stops, compared to exposure change of three stops between ISO 200 and 1600
I don't give a fig for the engineering definition of DR. I am using a camera for creating images.

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This is a misunderstanding of the capture process.  Canon is not "throwing away" DR by not recording it (subject to a caveat).
I'm afraid you misunderstood what I posted. "Canon" is throwing away DR, because they do not record all the possible data, which is in the sensor.

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ISO 200 doesn't have more DR in shadows because the sensor readout is limited by the noise of the variable gain amplifier that implements the ISO setting.  At high ISO this is a rather minor component of read noise, but is the dominant effect at low ISO
There is no law requiring, that only a 1/16th filled well can be read and converted with higher amplification. What about converting exposing to the right measured for base ISO and converting the now higher filled wells with high amplification?

Let's make it clear:

the only factual (i.e. not business) consideration against this is the amount of data and the processing time

Most DSLRs are designed for photographers, who want to shoot 3, 6, 10 frames per second. Landscapers are paying the prise for this slopsided approach.

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No.  They simply record more bits, which does not in and of itself confer more DR.  They do not garner more DR due to that; even the caveat above is not available, since a CCD sensor cannot be read non-destructively
I base my opinion on actual analysis of actual MFDB images.
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Gabor

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Can Stitching 1DsMk3 files = Med Format Quality?
« Reply #116 on: June 16, 2008, 02:43:40 pm »

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with no real-world improvement in image quality.

Well, my real word would improve a lot with higher dynamic range.
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Gabor

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« Reply #117 on: June 16, 2008, 03:01:26 pm »

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Well, my real word would improve a lot with higher dynamic range.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=201937\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It has been written many times that those last two bits (between 14 and 16) do not hold any image data which directly translates to an increase in dynamic range.
I believe that MF has better D.R., but it is said that this improvement in D.R. comes from data which is contained within the first 14 bits...
« Last Edit: June 16, 2008, 03:02:27 pm by 203 »
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eronald

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Can Stitching 1DsMk3 files = Med Format Quality?
« Reply #118 on: June 16, 2008, 04:19:39 pm »

At some point you need to write the details down in equations what is being said here is being buried in the vagueness of the english language.In particular, I don't undrestand what Jpeg is doing in this discussion, the quantisation errors alone are spectacular and everything is crusged to 8 bits.

Edmund

Quote
This is obviously somewhat "shocking". I tried to explain it in my #84; now I try a different way.

Let's take the Canon 40D as an example, based on DPReview's measurement  (the 1DsMkII has not been reviewed yet). I don't agree with their result in general, they are JPEG based, which does not have much to do with the camera's capablity, but their result is suitable for the explanation.

1. The 40D loses exactly one stop from the highlights by one stop ISO increase from ISO 200 to ISO 1600. This does not appear that way in DPReview, because the middle gray moves as well. However, the fact remains, that ISO 400 cuts off the very top stop captured by the sensors.

2. DPR measured a loss of *total* dynamic range as 0.3EV from 200 to 400, 0.1EV from 400 to 800 and 0.1EV GAIN (this is ridiculous) from 800 to 1600. Together, the loss from 200 to 1600 is only 0.3EV. I am "generous", I assume 1 full stop loss.

3. The loss in the highlights zwischen 200 and 1600 is *three* stops, but the total loss is only *one* stop. This means, that the sensor can deliver all together *two* stops higher DR than it is doing at ISO 200.

4. Why does the 40D NOT deliver this higher DR? Because it delivers always a *crop* of the total dynamic range. With ISO200 it cuts off two stops from the shadows, with ISO1600 it cuts off three stops of the highlights.

This is, what most MFDBs are doing differently: they deliver everything in one - but that requires the 16bits.

If the 40D converted the ISO1600 data in 13 bits and added three bits to keep the highlights, its dynamic range would be two stops larger and I would not have to throw away some of my shots I just made in the Rocky Mountains, because the 40D could not capture the scenery even with the best possible exposure.
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« Last Edit: June 16, 2008, 04:20:59 pm by eronald »
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Panopeeper

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Can Stitching 1DsMk3 files = Med Format Quality?
« Reply #119 on: June 16, 2008, 04:34:56 pm »

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It has been written many times that those last two bits (between 14 and 16) do not hold any image data which directly translates to an increase in dynamic range
AFAIK only MFDBs create 16bit raw files currently, so "it" has not been written so times.

Anyway, the point is not, if 14 or 16 bits are enough, but how those bits are used. If one can start out with 13 bits and increases that with three bits for ISO 1600 (from ISO 200), then one ends up with 16bits. If one starts out with 10bits, then 13 bits are required to include the entire spectrum.
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