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elitegroup

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Best advice on starting out in commercial area
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2008, 04:06:00 am »

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I just put together and estimate for two days self promotional shoot with Adriana Lima. Anyway you want to trim it and cut it, it will still end up around 100K, and by the end you have to ask yourself if it is worth it?
Http://AndreNapier.com
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O.K. I think I need to be your assistant when you shoot Adriana Lima & then she'll need me to take her out to dinner and drinks afterwards to help her relax after two days shooting.

Oh and Adriana is a CANON girl.........sigh  

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patrickfransdesmet

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« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2008, 04:06:53 am »

there is a saying

There is the life we live
and there is the life, the way we want it to be
But unfortunately
We have to live the life, the way it is.

I started with photography as a hobby,
at age 12 I had my own darkroom, 35mm
I saw the technology booming and wanted to be on top of it.
I changed school and studied electronics, photography and informatics.

I looked for several jobs in photography, but was hired as a service engineer
repairing computers, and later I got hired by SONY as a service engineer in the PRO dept. Lab.
I saw the very first digital camera's.(from the inside mostly      )

To make long story short
Today I make 80% of my income on informatics consulting
I work as a freelance for Agencies, consulting on DTP work, colormanagement,
editing PS, Il, video editing, even programming computers, pre-press e.a.

Sometimes, I get asked as a photographer, my lucky day.
I experienced, the harder you try to promote yourself as a photographer, the harder you get rejected.

This year, after al those "expensive" years of MFDB and software
I bought an old master-house in Art Deco style(1927)
Put my Old devere enlarger in it, and went back to film and fiber base paper for
portraits in black & white.
I just display the recent photo's before the window.People can make an appointment.
Guess what ... It works, I get several demands per week.
It's retro, it's art, it's ... priceless

And André, I bought a second hand RZ proII (I have Hasselblad V system)
and must admit, it is a fine camera, when using BW film too !

I'm in a comfortable position, since the IT thing covers my expenses, and for photography leaves the door open in doing ONLY what I like about photography.

cheers,

patrick
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evgeny

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« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2008, 04:13:31 am »

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I experienced, the harder you try to promote yourself as a photographer, the harder you get rejected.

I'm in a comfortable position, since the IT thing covers my expenses, and for photography leaves the door open in doing ONLY what I like about photography.
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Well said !
« Last Edit: June 16, 2008, 04:14:25 am by evgeny »
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James R Russell

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« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2008, 12:08:38 pm »

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Well said !
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As this article mentions.  Getting discovered is one thing, having a career is quite another.

Unfortunatley we've turned into a world where everyone thinks one 3rd place runner up on "America's got talent" will make you the next Bob Dylan and for 15 minutes it will, but only for 15 minutes.

Broad strokes and moments of brillance ( or luck)  does not make a career.  It's a long hard and dedicated building process.

New York is full of photographers that come to make their mark.  They live in 200sq. flats in Brooklyn and Queens, or share with a friend in Hoboken, but for the 10,654 that come in every week, 10,653 also return home.

Consequently some come with a great deal of resource and apply that to hiring talented crew and excellent PR, but that does no way change the fact that they what gets on the final page is beautiful and worthwhile.

You can have success in this business, but it rarely comes from one shoot, on moment, or one year.  A career is a long process.

[a href=\"http://aphotoeditor.com/2008/06/13/an-endless-stream-of-photography/]http://aphotoeditor.com/2008/06/13/an-endl...of-photography/[/url]

JR
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 12:58:58 am by James R Russell »
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JTFOTO

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« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2008, 01:58:34 pm »

There is also that old saying  You can take the Gorilla out of the Jungle but you can't take the Jungle out of the Gorilla.

Well in this case, you can take the Cheeseball out of the Cheese, but you can't take the Cheese out of the Cheeseball.

No matter what you spend on promotion and hiring models to try and make your books look good.  It is all about personality now a days and connections.  You may get some advertising work here and there from small regional agencies.  But you won't get anything major.

AN: 200 covers in three years since you started?  That is impressive   Mercedes Benz magazine?  When did that come out?

This business has almost nothing to do with talent now a days.  It has more to do with connections and retouching.  I know shooters that have been doing it for years with little luck, but getting by.  Then I know people that got into three years ago and made all the connections they needed and are shooting away.

Does it take money, ABSOLUTELY YES!

Does it take spending $30k to $100k on shoots.  Only if you're on idiot. Take the money and spend two years at Pasadena Art Center.  Most of the kids getting out of there go straight into shooting.

Take that money and get yourself an apartment in Paris, Milan or London for two years and test your ass off.  Now a days a laptop, a couple of pocket hard drives, 5D with a few lenses and a Mamiya P30 with a couple of lenses and your set.

I have a friend who was testing for three or four years and in those years shot some of the biggest girls right now.  Those girls remember him and he hangs with them all and in turn gets catalog and editorial work from the social connections.  He admits himself, it is all about connections.  with out knowing those girls he would still be a nobody.  Now he is shooting Marie Claire, Second/Third tier Vogue, Elle and Harpers editions, Rolling Stone, Foreign Vanity Fair, etc..

Then you have the flip side of it.  Guys Like Howard Schatz who bought their way in.  He was a renowned surgeon and a passion for photography.  Spent hundreds of thousands testing and shooting.  No longer practices medicine and shoots all the time.

You make of life what you have available to you!  Don't be discouraged by Cheeseballs spouting out hiring famous models to make their books.  VS girls are not much.  Once they do VS they don't anything at all.  Most of the VS girls that is all they do, with the exception of Gisele.  it is a double edge sword working for VS as a model.  You get a contract and guaranteed salary, but then you can't do anything else except VS.

I have this quote that I look at everyday

If you wish to travel far and fast, travel light.  Take off all your envies, jealousies, unforgiveness, selfishness, and fears.

CARPE DIEM!!!!!
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paulmoorestudio

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« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2008, 05:48:59 pm »

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Hi All,

Not to bore everyone with the life story but more as background to the question. I have always had an interested in photography from when I was very young, mainly due to my fathers love for the craft. I now have a very successful IT career which has taken me many many times around the world and not many weeks pass that I am not on a plane or hotel.

I decided a few years ago to break the stress to get back in touch with photography this was driven my the birth of my first daughter, and something changed for me when I looked at the images I was taking.

I quickly tried to understand the business of photography and was mainly meet with very negative statements about it as a career choice. I tried to approach a few professionals to start to learn the craft but had no real success. So I started my own wedding business aimed at the mid to high end of the market while the corporate life still runs it's course. So I now find myself driven by my passion for photography and not the corporate dream. So I want to transition over to run my own studio and expand into the areas that I wanted really to be in the commercial editorial side of the business. Don't get me wrong wedding photography is a great area and one of the most demanding areas considering the volume and process we go through.

With al that said I am seeking real advice and guidance to the best steps to get into the commercial side of this great business. I am looking for the best steps that i could undertake to assist me getting started. I respect the great photographers and your work on this forum and hope that your many years of experience and inside knowledge of the business may assist to help me get into the game.

So with that covered please feel free to let me know what you think. I read one of James articles/interviews on the phaseone site and one key line was "photography choose him" I also feel that I had no choice in this matter it just took a longer time for me to discover that calling.

Regards

Rodney
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I guess everyone here assumes you want to be a fashion photographer? I didn't get that from your post, but maybe I just didn't get it. I'm not sure where a wedding photographer goes after weddings..  Shoot what you love, be unique in how you do it and do it great.  I will leave the details to others here as to how to get your wares to market.. was never my forte. But if you have good stuff you should be able to make a living... " there is always room at the top"
..get the editorial jobs and the advertising will follow.
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Plekto

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« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2008, 09:07:49 pm »

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The reason for it is very simple. In general population 60% of people have no opinion on their own. Out of the 40% remaining 80% have no taste. Out of the 20% remaining from the 40%, 90% have no clue about photography. That includes lots of AD's and photography buyers who believe in the opinion that one creates about his own talent.

But the practical upshot of this is that you don't need an insane investment either.  I have a cousin who does work for a couple of local newspapers and magazines here in Los Angeles from time to time and he just does fine with a few bags of gear.  

There are a lot of jobs where world-class results aren't a necessity.  But good marketing and people skills always are. It's perhaps one of the few jobs where nice guys can actually finish first
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Studio12NYC

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« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2008, 09:21:42 pm »

JT & JR nailed it on the head!

But if you want to be a shooter.  Start with local mags and papers, then get to regional.  If you want to just take pictures and don;t care what you shoot.  Everyone wants a portrait.  Even Avedon, Penn and Newman shots weddings and kids portraits when they started.

I started at the local and regional and then went national and worldwide.  Shoot what you want to kids, weddings, portrait, music, stills, landscape,  etc...

You never know where it will take you.  Just shoot and the best thing is you don't have to worry about making money to feed yourself and pay the bills.  Go at it with reckless abandon!  That is the best place to be.

Good Luck!!!!

So
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Kirk Gittings

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« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2008, 09:51:38 pm »

A few cliches, that I have found to be true:

Shoot what you love, the money will follow. Be your toughest critic. Have standards higher than your clients. Don't worry about what other photographers are doing. Charge enough so that you don't fret about whether you are making any money during the shoot. Its not about the camera, its about your vision.
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Thanks,
Kirk Gittings

AndreNapier

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« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2008, 12:14:34 am »

An
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 01:27:14 am by AndreNapier »
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marc gerritsen

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« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2008, 12:36:54 am »

Andre,
You started it, by saying you were going to spend 100k on a promotional shoot.
What has that to got do with giving advice to a newcomer other than majorly bragging
about either your income or your spending.
Is this superficiality indicative of the fashion industry?
I wonder.
cheers
Marc
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AndreNapier

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« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2008, 12:53:49 am »

an
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 01:26:35 am by AndreNapier »
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marc gerritsen

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« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2008, 01:13:39 am »

Never mind!

All by all I thought it was maybe not the right place to mention it, allthough I was a bit perplexed
at the money (for some a yearly income) you would have to spend to get the future jobs.
No envy or jealousy here at all, the more money you make the higher the ceiling is for me as well.

cheers
Marc
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James R Russell

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« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2008, 01:15:39 am »

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A few cliches, that I have found to be true:

Shoot what you love, the money will follow. Be your toughest critic. Have standards higher than your clients. Don't worry about what other photographers are doing. Charge enough so that you don't fret about whether you are making any money during the shoot. Its not about the camera, its about your vision.
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The best advice I can give anyone is to be upfront, honest and fair.

(This isn't directed to any one person, btw).

This is a strange industry and one of the few where building a good reputation can mean you pay people on time and don't abuse everyone in the room.  When you think about that last sentence it's funny (ironic funny, not ha-ha funny), because there really should be no points for decent human behavior.

Long term, you really do receive what you give and remember when you are building your career, it is your choice and if you do it correctly you as the photographer will reap the most rewards, so on those days you test, or do low to no budget editorial remember the crew isn't building their portfolio, you are.

If you build a good reputation, finding the right materials, crew, talent to put in the room get's easier as you go down the line because you build positive equity.

Still all of what I just wrote can be condensed down to one line which is just treat everyone the way you would like to be treated and it usually works out ok, regardless of the genre or level you want to reach.

Live to your word, your promises, give credit where credit is due and you will eventually build a good reputation and client base.

I welcome the good, hard working and honest photographers to our industry because God knows we need more of them.

JR
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 01:17:56 am by James R Russell »
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rainer_v

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« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2008, 05:44:54 am »

i started also late to work as photographer, after writing and producing music my half life,- i was finally very fed up from tv and ad industry,- although i wasnt bad in business at all. so i stopped, but havent had any clear idea how to go on at that moment. i think this was one of my bravest and best decisions in my live.

i started to come in professional architecture photography, but i had lo expectations, knowing how hard it can be to reach in an artistic work even average level, just to be able to call you professional. i`ve shot a portfolio with regional ( but good ) architecture and phoned a million architects in the beginning.
i got some small works from this activities, but at least it was a beginning and i enjoyed it a lot. as i said, i had very lo expectations.....  but the jobs grew up fast and soon i came in situations where i had to compete with the work from several known photographers, either because they have shot the same projects as i did, or because they already were working for institutions, where i was asking for work too.
to my surprise i was able to compete with them and often the client preferred my image language, which was great for me to experience, esp. because first time i was confronted even with international known photographers.
in fact i havent had a clear idea if i am good or bad, but i knew that i tried in all this jobs the best i could give and this was very good for me to see that there are people who really liked my way of seeing the things.
i was able to do that in several cases and got some important clients in that way,- important especially in the way that they have been very demanding in respect to image quality.
this works have been a great school for me. i shot some stock stuff ( even i made good money with some of this ) as long i had time for it.
so my career was mostly a mix of luck and trying to use it as good i could do.
about luck: of-course i have  had luck  to meet the right persons in the right moment, but to use these little chances to get constant work out of it needed the highest effort and the best i could  give.
for sure it was very good for me that i already knew how to calculate and how to make business,- music is not so far away from photography as it seems,.- not in terms of business, usage rights, how to act in front of clients and so on... and not in terms of the work itself. at least i realized after a while that the process i was in ( meanwhile shooting ) was very similar than when i was composing music.
its all about structure... at least in architecture photography.

i rarely tried to get jobs i for being the cheapest, although i tried to make my work affortable which was not always easy, because i am very perfectionistic. this often leads me to ask for a lot of gear and time for my projects. now i get often the money i am asking for, but in the beginning i was often working very long time ( many days or weeks )  on my jobs, so i could not calculate my work on a "day rate" base, because on one hand i did not liked to give very cheap day rates, and on the other hand i wanted long time frames to get the images i wanted to make.  i did not wanted to give cheap day rates, because they often imply that the guys who ask more are better,- and i didnt liked to give this impression at all ). so,- although i was in fact cheaper than most others ( in terms of my real hour rate ), in the end my productions have been usually the most expensive ones.

i personally always was more interested in  satisfying work than in my bank account,- although my business is running well and i really should not complain,- more the opposite.
i would advice in any case to give 100% of what you can give. forget the thought that it is in any way important if your clients can see your efforts. in the long term they can, although they might not be able to see the difference if you give 95 or 100% in one job. but you just will become better if you try your best. above it was mentioned and i agree,- there is always a place free on top.
but therefor your photography has to  contain more than a clever business, maybe a  practiced  obsession - with opened eyes - will serve you more.

some thoughts about prof. working:
take care about the usage rights, they can be very important,- i mean it might be important of you are in or out of them ( sure fashion and ad work here is very different ).
dont try to come in the business for being the cheapest or making prices which can not feed you. it could be impossible to bring up the prices later to a level where you want to work and it will be impossible to make outstanding work, not only because you cant afford the tools you need, as well because the people which are buying your images will not valuate you in the same way.
give 100% of what you can give.
give your clients more than you promised , not less ( j. schulman said this )
calculate ( for yourself ) the double of the time which you think you will need ( j. schulman said this also )
have fun and be relaxed. no one likes to work with over-stressed people.
treat your assistants good and the people you might depend on the site
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 02:19:13 pm by rainer_v »
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rainer viertlböck
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jonstewart

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« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2008, 09:39:18 am »

Rainer, thanks for your comments here - most helpful, as have been many other people's.

Could you explain a little more what you mean by 'image language'?

Thanks
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 If only life were so simple.

Eric Myrvaagnes

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« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2008, 09:49:28 am »

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An
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That's certainly the most succinct advice I've seen on the subject.  
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rainer_v

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« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2008, 10:31:30 am »

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Rainer, thanks for your comments here - most helpful, as have been many other people's.

Could you explain a little more what you mean by 'image language'?

Thanks
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i mean personal style.
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rainer viertlböck
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jonstewart

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« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2008, 03:37:31 am »

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i mean personal style.
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... of which you have an abundance.

Thanks Rainer
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Jon Stewart
 If only life were so simple.

rainer_v

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« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2008, 03:47:13 am »

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... of which you have an abundance.

Thanks Rainer
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thank you ...
i work on it.
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rainer viertlböck
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