Canvas profiling on Z3100

[ThePhotoDude]

***UPDATE*** Please see below post from me (#16)  

Hi there,

I am trying to print a photo onto HP Artist Matte Canvas and getting no joy with colour accuracy. Mainly, there is a magenta cast. When I try and fix it in Photoshop by changing the colour balance and adding green ( a desparate move, because the softproofing looks fine), the result is a heavy YELLOW cast, the person looks like they have Jaundice! And it's too dark, the pinks (a jumper) looks dark, almost red, it should be a pale pink!

The print using HP Pro Satin-Matte IS PERFECT. Pale pinks, pale face, no colour casts.

I have a Z3100PS GP, I have calibrated the canvas twice.
Any ideas?

thanks, john

[rdonson]

John,

I'm assuming that your color mgmt settings are good on the canvas, they're obviously good on the satin.  I'm assuming that you've printed on Pro Satin before and after the canvas.  If not, its possible that you've got a clogged head and should run the diagnostic print and perhaps a cleaning.

That's the first guess.

[ThePhotoDude]

Hmmm, thanks for that. I haven't printed on the satin AFTER the canvas - I will give that a go and check the result. Then will try the head clean.

Will post back here with result.

[ThePhotoDude]

John,

I'm assuming that your color mgmt settings are good on the canvas, they're obviously good on the satin.  I'm assuming that you've printed on Pro Satin before and after the canvas.  If not, its possible that you've got a clogged head and should run the diagnostic print and perhaps a cleaning.

That's the first guess.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=200655\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

OK, I have tried what you suggested, I ran another copy off on the Satin, and it is perfect, exact same skin tones as the original. So that eliminates any hardware issues?

Leaves calibration of the canvas or profile or something.

But I have calibrated the canvas twice. My monitor is calibrated.
When I print, (from CS3) I select HP Artist Matte Canvas from the list, all settings are Application manages colour etc, do that in the print driver as well, all things are consistant.

[ThePhotoDude]

Latest update, I ran a demo print (that comes internally in the printer) on both the canvas and the satin.
The canvas print is AWFUL, too dark, oversaturated and a magenta cast.

So the problem isn't coming from my print settings or drivers.
So that leaves calibration, which is worrying me because I have calibrated it with the canvas. Is it possible the sensor is not working correctly on the canvas?
Anyone?

[Roscolo]

You say you have calibrated the canvas.

Have you profiled it as well?

[ThePhotoDude]

You say you have calibrated the canvas.

Have you profiled it as well?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=200785\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have done two separate things:

In Advance Profiling System (APS) I have clicked Printer Prolfile then gone through to calibrate the installed paper. It printed a test pattern (the square shaped one with patches of 16 shades of each colour). It did it's thing and said paper is calibrated. (took 5 mins or so)

Run some tests, no joy.

Just now, I used the HP Color Center, and chose, Create and Install ICC profile. Chose the Artist Matte Canvas, and didn't retypre the ICC name, left it as "HP Designjet Z3100ps, HP Artist Matte Canvas". Click next, the printer does a huge patch of colors, right across the page, loads of colors, loads of hexagon patches. It then scans each color internally and finishes and saves the profile. (took 15 mins about).

Run another print, still the same thing.
I'm not chasing my tail am I? ... This is not 'the nature' of canvas prints or anything?

Thanks

[Roscolo]

Definitely not the nature of canvas prints.

I print with the z3100 44 (no APS) on the HP Artist Matte Canvas with excellent results that match my monitor, although the match is not as "exact" as when I print on HP Premium ID Satin.

[Colorwave]

Run another print, still the same thing.
I'm not chasing my tail am I? ... This is not 'the nature' of canvas prints or anything?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=200788\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you have APS and are not using it to create new paper profiles, then you are not getting the added value of the APS that you paid for.  What you describe doing with APS is calibration, not profiling, and while the printer might have needed calibrating for this substrate, the more likely scenario is that the profile is the culprit.  For calibration, APS creates a much larger test pattern (I use the TC9.18, with 918 patches, for the most accurate APS profiles).  What you did was to profile without APS, which should be a bit less accurate than the APS profile.
-Ron H.

[ThePhotoDude]

If you have APS and are not using it to create new paper profiles, then you are not getting the added value of the APS that you paid for.  What you describe doing with APS is calibration, not profiling, and while the printer might have needed calibrating for this substrate, the more likely scenario is that the profile is the culprit.  For calibration, APS creates a much larger test pattern (I use the TC9.18, with 918 patches, for the most accurate APS profiles).  What you did was to profile without APS, which should be a bit less accurate than the APS profile.
-Ron H.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=200842\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Ron - when I use APS to profile I have an issue - I click "I want to print and measure a new chart" or something like that, the printer prints, whilst the ink is drying, it goes to the next stage where it says insert chart to measure, but it doesn't wait, (the printer still thinks it's drying the ink on the front panel), it then says, error, cannot profile due to scanning error. It seems the APS software isn't talking to the printer.

So what if I profile using the printer front panel?

Also, you say that without APS is a bit less acurate profiling, but this is not *a bit* less accurate, it's way off.

[Colorwave]

John-
In APS, you should select "print and measure a new chart" and then choose the type of test pattern on the right side drop down menu.  Choose the TC1.8 for the most patches and best color accuracy.  Then select fit to page and whether you want to be able to remeasure the chart, and select whether or not you want gloss enhancer on.  

If you are printing on roll paper, the next thing that you should have to do is to name the profile, as the rest if automatic.  Make sure to name the profile something distinctive, so you are sure that you are selecting the right profile when you softproof in Photoshop and when you print.  

If you are calibrating with sheet paper, you will need to remove each sheet as it prints, then reinsert the sheets the normal way (including having to tell the printer what paper type you are inserting each time) to read the test patterns.  It is important that the sheets are reinserted the direction that they are printed for the printer to read the code on each before scanning.

If your printer is not behaving as I described then something is wrong and you need to call tech support.

I have tried the stock HP profiles and found them generally accurate, but have not tried profiling without APS to compare the two.  From the sound of it, you wrote your own non-APS profile over the stock HP one when you kept the same profile name, so you don't have a way of comparing those two profiles anymore without reloading the HP version.  I'm sure that the true APS profile will be somewhat better than what you have now, I just don't know how much better.

Best of luck,
Ron H.

[DotCom Editor]

Can I take a step back, please?

The only papers I have ever used on my Z3100 (non APS) are HP Hahn SFA and HP ID Satin. I'm ready to try a canvas, and I'm looking for recommendations and advice. I'm disappointed that the HP canvas rolls are only 20' long; that will make for more remnant waste than would a 40' roll. Thanks for letting me go on this tangent.

[ThePhotoDude]

John-
In APS, you should select "print and measure a new chart" and then choose the type of test pattern on the right side drop down menu.  Choose the TC1.8 for the most patches and best color accuracy.  Then select fit to page and whether you want to be able to remeasure the chart, and select whether or not you want gloss enhancer on. 

If you are printing on roll paper, the next thing that you should have to do is to name the profile, as the rest if automatic.  Make sure to name the profile something distinctive, so you are sure that you are selecting the right profile when you softproof in Photoshop and when you print. 

If you are calibrating with sheet paper, you will need to remove each sheet as it prints, then reinsert the sheets the normal way (including having to tell the printer what paper type you are inserting each time) to read the test patterns.  It is important that the sheets are reinserted the direction that they are printed for the printer to read the code on each before scanning.

If your printer is not behaving as I described then something is wrong and you need to call tech support.

I have tried the stock HP profiles and found them generally accurate, but have not tried profiling without APS to compare the two.  From the sound of it, you wrote your own non-APS profile over the stock HP one when you kept the same profile name, so you don't have a way of comparing those two profiles anymore without reloading the HP version.  I'm sure that the true APS profile will be somewhat better than what you have now, I just don't know how much better.

Best of luck,
Ron H.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=200919\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Ron,

OK I have run out of a roll of canvas now (it was a promo 6m roll but still) .. I was hoping to use that roll to get the colors sorted out, now I have to buy another, and it's not cheap, never mind the ink.

Do you think it's worth uninstalling everything printer related and start from scratch to get this right? I need to get these colors nailed.

If so, any suggestions on a proven method of installing what drivers in what order?
I have downloaded the latest drivers, a GL/2, Raster and PS driver ?? Which do I install for photos? Do I install all 3? Maybe this is my issue?

thanks, john

[ThePhotoDude]

Sorry for bumping this , but getting real frustrated now.

I think I will uninstall all my drivers and APS and everything and start from scratch.

I downloaded 3 drivers from HP -  GL/2, Raster and Postscript driver ??
Which do I install for photos? Do I install all 3? Maybe this is my issue?

I only print photographs, not CAD or anything.

Thanks

[Colorwave]

Sorry for bumping this , but getting real frustrated now.

I think I will uninstall all my drivers and APS and everything and start from scratch.

I downloaded 3 drivers from HP -  GL/2, Raster and Postscript driver ??
Which do I install for photos? Do I install all 3? Maybe this is my issue?

I only print photographs, not CAD or anything.

Thanks
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202224\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

PhotoDude-

I think that the HP-GL2 is primarily for CAD, but don't have that one installed.  I do know, though, that the normal raster driver and PS driver are able to be installed side by side, as that is what I've had for quite a while.  In non Postscript files, I've not been able to see a difference in which driver I print with.  The raster driver's interface is slightly less trouble to use, as it is laid out a little more streamlined, but other than that, I don't think you will find much difference unless you are printing Postscript files.  The PS option was not something that I was willing to pay significant money for, but was an added bonus that came with the APS/GP package.

In my experience, I think that the HP uninstallers do not really remove all of the miscellaneous bits that are installed, as I get a different number of files that it says it is installing when I uninstall vs. manually strip everything from my system.  HP tech support had me clean out files from several places, then install new drivers from the original Leopard install disk, then install the new HP driver/utility software.  I really think that it is too complex and tricky to offer you direction on that here, as it is much better to have an interactive tutor on the phone with you while you sort it all out.

I recommend a call to tech support to get them to walk you through the process.  It will take a bit of time, but they will stay with you through the whole process and you will have less worries that way.

Best of luck,
Ron

[ThePhotoDude]

UPDATE!

I thought I would share what happened with all of this just if anybody else is having the same problems as I did....

Basically, to recap (so you don't have to read the whole thread from the beginning):

Z3100PS
HP Artist Matte Canvas

Used APS to profile, couldn't get decent, accurate colors. Very saturated, esp in reds, high contrast, skin colors awful, reddish and even yellow casts.
Re-profiled again, and again, and again and.... you get the point.
Had to manually adjust the profile using the APS profile optimizer, to drop contrast and control color casts.
But it wasn't ideal, still not perfect.

So, fast forward.

Called HP, they said ah, yes they know about this problem with Artist Matte Canvas and skin tones not coming out right.
Basically the problem was RESOLVED in version 5 of the firmware.
Ah. I was running firmware 6 and had this issue, and when I upgraded to v7, I still had the problem.

So, in my mind, either the firmware didn't fix it, or - I had a different problem, or - my firmware upgrade had bugs that left remnants or bugs from old versions. Is that possible/ Who knows.
So HP said: DON'T use APS, and try profile using the Printer Utility and report back results.
Yeah right.
In truth, I forgot, and when HP called me 2 weeks later, I had to tell them something, right. Right?
Anyway, I wasn't convinced it was the answer anyway, I have been fobbed off before, I know the signs!
So I said, yeah, did the profile in Printer Utility made no difference.

So, they said, OK we are sending you out a new Formatter.

So they did.

A formatter, to those mildly interested, is a circuit board in the back of the machine, which is USER replaceable.
Two thumbscrews hold it in - it is where the LAN port is, unscrew these and pull it out.
It has a bunch of chips on it, as circuit boards generally do, a big EPROM chip, I guess the firmware, and the hard drive (which looks like a standard 2.5" laptop drive).

They send me this new formatter board, I replace in 2 minutes, and guess what?

IT WORKED! I profiled using APS and the colors were SO much better, more accurate and no color casts etc.

So, I think it is amazing that ONE type of paper (well, canvas) can be affected by hardware fault.
Every other paper I used profiled fine, just this Artist Matte Canvas.

But for now, a happy ending!

Thanks for listening!
John

[Xanthor]

Thanks for sharing this information/story.   I'm most certain someone somewhere will benefit from it.

I for one have benefited greately from the information and knowledge that has been shared on the board.

[rdonson]

Thanks for the update, John.  Good to know.

[Shutterbug2006]

Hmmm, so a serious question I would have is this.....

I bought my printer about May 2008. I have not yet tried printing canvas, in fact I'm a little gun shy after the printer ate a corner of HP Opaque Scrim and damaged a blue/green print head in the process (HP replaced the print head at no charge), when I attempted to use this media.

The customer cancelled the print job while I was waiting for the print head to be replaced, so I've not had an occasion to use this media again yet.

If I haven't tried using canvas by the time the one year warranty is up, what is the chance HP would replace the formatter circuit board thereafter at no charge if that too was a problem for me, or for any owner for that matter?

[Roscolo]

Glad you got your problem fixed.

Do you mind posting the HP Part Number of the formatter for future's sake?

Thanks