Canadians! Where is the best place to buy?

[PSA DC-9-30]

I'm an American living in Canada. No offense, but I'm continually amazed at how stupefyingly expensive everything is here (even before 12% sales tax!). Anyway, I've had my eye on an Olympus E-510 two lens kit for quite a while, and I was just about ready to buy one from Camera Canada at $757, when they raised the price to $950! (I wonder what kind of gimmick this, and how the impending arrival of the E520 may be affecting this) No one in town (Vancouver) really has the two lens kit, and Vistek.ca is looney expensive on this item at least. So, I'm wondering whether it would just be cheaper to buy it from B&H and bite the bullet on the stupefying 30% border duties. My main reservation is if there is a problem with the camera, and I have to send it back--will I then get stuck with paying tax again? Where do you Canadians buy your equipment? Who do you trust? Am I asking for trouble ordering this from the U.S.?

[Panopeeper]

1. Future Shop has the package for $799. See http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/subclass....=EN&catid=26315

2. If you buy in Ontario or Alberta, then only the 7% GST has to be added (theoretically you would have to pay PST as well, but I don't think anyone is doing that).

3. There is no 30% duty, there is not even 1% duty. GST and PST has to be paid when purchasing from the US.

4. It pays to buy in the US only if the item is very expensive and the price difference is huge. The shipping cost is usually high. However, several - perhaps all - camera makers honor the warranty equally in the US and Canada, so you would not have to send it back to the US for repair.

5. Never let anything ship over the border by UPS or Fedex, for you have to pay a lot extra when receiving the item, additionally to the shipping price. However, with USPS it is much slower.

[PSA DC-9-30]

5. Never let anything ship over the border by UPS or Fedex, for you have to pay a lot extra when receiving the item, additionally to the shipping price. However, with USPS it is much slower.
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Thanks. This is interesting. WE've had Xmas gifts sent to us, and of a $120 value, we've had to pay $45, but only with Fed Ex. I hear a lot of people complaining about import duties, but maybe they've all had stuff shipped Fed Ex. I know there is an 80% duty on liquor taken across the border however.

[Panopeeper]

What you have to pay the shipping company is duty PLUS brokerage fee (when the item has to be declared at the border). Canada Post is doing that for $5; UPS and Fedex do that for many times as much, depending on the item's value. Plus, UPS has introduced another kind of fee.

The liqueur is a different issue. Canadians' bigotry differs from Americans'.

Anyway, buy from Future Shop, it is a very good seller; the return policy is great, the service is excellent, particularly if you pay for extended coverage (which is usually too expensive). If you have some time, subscribe for the online newsletters. They have very often weekend specials.

[wolfnowl]

If you're in Vancouver, you might want to stop by Beau Photo.  Not sure if they sell Olympus products or not, but they have a very knowledgeable staff...

My main reservation is if there is a problem with the camera, and I have to send it back--will I then get stuck with paying tax again? Where do you Canadians buy your equipment? Who do you trust? Am I asking for trouble ordering this from the U.S.?

Well, it depends.  If the item is being sent for repair, then after it is repaired the company should clearly label the package as 'Canadian Goods Being Returned to Canada'.  If the item is replaced, it's considered a 'new' item and you have to pay for it.  And yes, if you order a product from another province, you have to pay the 5% GST, but you don't pay the PST.  Unless you order from a province that has a combined 'HST'

Mike.

[PSA DC-9-30]

Yeah, the guys at Beau are very good, but from what I remember, they really only carry pro gear. I asked about the Nikon D300 once and the guy seemed to think it questionable as to whether they'd bother carrying anything less than the D3.

Thanks for the recommendation about Future Shop. I've bought stuff there before, but I was never particularly impressed with the expertise or the demeanor of the sales staff. (Still, I know what I want, and if their return policy is good, I guess I can't go wrong.)

[Harold Clark]

I'm an American living in Canada. No offense, but I'm continually amazed at how stupefyingly expensive everything is here (even before 12% sales tax!). Anyway, I've had my eye on an Olympus E-510 two lens kit for quite a while, and I was just about ready to buy one from Camera Canada at $757, when they raised the price to $950! (I wonder what kind of gimmick this, and how the impending arrival of the E520 may be affecting this) No one in town (Vancouver) really has the two lens kit, and Vistek.ca is looney expensive on this item at least. So, I'm wondering whether it would just be cheaper to buy it from B&H and bite the bullet on the stupefying 30% border duties. My main reservation is if there is a problem with the camera, and I have to send it back--will I then get stuck with paying tax again? Where do you Canadians buy your equipment? Who do you trust? Am I asking for trouble ordering this from the U.S.?
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I have often bought from B&H with never a problem. I always ship airmail, takes about a week ( slow plane ). UPS is the worst, they are slower than airmail and charge horrendous brokerage fees. They also dropped a lens out of their truck in the parking lot of my studio once. Fortunately it was well packaged and someone forund it and brought it to me. I bought a lens from Badger Graphic a few years ago, UPS wanted $58.00, airmail got it here faster for $11.00. There is no duty on camera equipment. If you make your living as a photographer, there is no provincial sales tax at least in Ontario, and the GST is refunded as well. Fortunately I haven't had to ship anything back for service, but if you had to I am sure with the appropriate paperwork you wouldn't get dinged again for sales tax.

I agree we are ripped off in Canada, and the smaller population base doesn't account for it either. I bought some short sync cords for the pocket wizards at B&H for $15.00. I recently realized I needed one more, too small an order to bother with B&H. The Toronto price was $36.00!

[Bill Caulfeild-Browne]

Here is an excellent website for comparisons. As you will see, there are dealers in Canada who are competitive with the US.

http://www.photoprice.ca/article/00001

Bill

I'm an American living in Canada. No offense, but I'm continually amazed at how stupefyingly expensive everything is here (even before 12% sales tax!). Anyway, I've had my eye on an Olympus E-510 two lens kit for quite a while, and I was just about ready to buy one from Camera Canada at $757, when they raised the price to $950! (I wonder what kind of gimmick this, and how the impending arrival of the E520 may be affecting this) No one in town (Vancouver) really has the two lens kit, and Vistek.ca is looney expensive on this item at least. So, I'm wondering whether it would just be cheaper to buy it from B&H and bite the bullet on the stupefying 30% border duties. My main reservation is if there is a problem with the camera, and I have to send it back--will I then get stuck with paying tax again? Where do you Canadians buy your equipment? Who do you trust? Am I asking for trouble ordering this from the U.S.?
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[CJL]

Try The Camera Store (www.thecamerastore.com) in Calgary; their prices are generally competitive with B&H these days.

[AndyF2]

We don't understand why some NAFTA goods are so much higher here either...  You will pay the GST + PST when it comes in (about 13 or 14%) but no duty.  Keep your receipt to prove you already paid it, if you ever have to return it for repair (unlikely since the US repair center will provide the proper paperwork to clear it through).  

Visit some local hotels or tourist gift shops and look for the form that tourists can use to claim a refund of sales taxes on goods bought while visiting Canada.  Normally this applies to visitors buying things in Canada, but may also work for visitors importing goods and paying taxes.   You'll have to claim it in person on the way out (visit home within 30 days??).  Not totally sure if that will work, and it might not be useable by foreign residents.  

There are good local dealers, and you may be able to get a good deal on a camera + upgraded lens combo or major accessory if you try and negotiate for that.  

And, avoid UPS due to their brokerage fees and inflexible delivery methods.  Canada Post / Purolator is just much more convenient.

Andy

[Conner999]

No duties on camera gear - new or used.  Only pay HST. I buy almost all my gear from US - cheaper, better selection of new/used gear and in most cases, better service.

Shipping to me in Halifax from say T.O. is no better than shipping from NY and when I ask a question from folks like B&H I can actually get an informed answer.

USPS (Priority): cheaper by far, insured, almost as fast, no @#$ add-on fees and 1/2 the time Rev Can lets things go through sans tax.

UPS/Fedex:  What happens is @#$% UPS (the service used by many US vendors) charge 'brokerage fees' if the sender uses their cheaper service.  

It is NOT a duty, etc - it all goes to UPS.  If the sender uses the more spendy option, no brokerage fee. In essence, the firm shifts the bulk of the price of shipping from the sender to the user if the cheaper service is selected.  It's a shell game.

NEVER ship UPS or Fedex across border if can be avoided. Not only have the add-on fees but they, by law, MUST collect HST on every item.  If you ask nicely, many US shops will ship USPS to Canada - even if they list UPS as their shipper.

The issue with cost are : Retailers (and wholesalers) who don't get the advent of the internet and still think it's a captive market, lower volume buying by CDN chains (vs. US) and regional policies set by Canon NA, etc.

[joneil]

The issue with cost are : Retailers (and wholesalers) who don't get the advent of the internet and still think it's a captive market, lower volume buying by CDN chains (vs. US) and regional policies set by Canon NA, etc.
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-snip-

   More the fault of the wholesalers than the retailers, speaking from the retail end (but not cameras).   Some of the prices from wholesalers in Canada on certian items is the same as, or higher than many advertised US prices.  You point this out and they don't seem to care.  

   Also, when a retailer imports product from the USA into Canada for retail sale, it almost always has to come via a commercial shipper - that is, Fedex, DHL, UPS, and others.    Very, very few  wholesalers in the USA will ship wholesale products to Canada and NOT use a commercial shipper.  even if you have a small, tiny item to import, they refuse mail.  Don't suggest I should deal with a wholesaler who will ship by mail because a lot of US based wholesalers will not even ship to Canada to begin with.    You sometimes take what you are offered or you don't do business.

  It's the economy of scale to some extent.  Wal-Mart USA sales alone are larger than *all* retail sales in Canada combined.

   So even if you have a commercial shipping account, and even if you have a private customs broker instead of the ones the big shipping companies offer in house, man, you still get hammered on shipping, brokerage and import costs.  

   Let me give you an idea of how stupid shipping is getting.  I bought a used Berelbach tripod form NY city last year.   Had it shipped to a friend of mine in Ohio, because i was heading down his way for a trip to FL.  

   Shipping form NY to OH - $15 US by Fedex.   That exact same tripod, shipped form NY to my home in Ontario (and i live one hour drive from the US boarder) - $45 US - PLUS brokerage fees.  

 
   One last point -remember that is is anywhere from a 4.5 to 5 cent spread on what the banks buy and sell US dollars at in Canada.   For example today, direct from scotiabank web site:
 United States      Dollar (USD)    Sell: 1.043500   Buy:  0.998500

   also, most cross boarder transactions for small retailers are done by credit card, and all the credit card companies in Canada add *another*  one half of one cent "currency exchange charge" or whatever they call it, in addition to all the other little fees they have.


 So when a customer phones me or e-mails me with a nasty "I'm never going to buy from you anymore because the dollar is at par and your prices are higher" - what am I supposed to do?     The last item I sold for $2,400 I made $75 profit, and the government collected 13% sales taxes, or $312 - four times more money then I made on the sale.


    I don't know what to tell you, because I am both sides of the fence on this one.   Sometimes the retailer just doesn't get it, but other times, they just don't have a choice either.    It's almost if like the system is setup to drive small retailers out of business and leave only the big ones behind.

[Mark D Segal]

Let's start with duties:

Whether or not duty is charged depends on the product classification and the rules of origin. It has nothing to do with who ships the product. Since very little of this stuff is made in the USA, NAFTA has nothing to do with it. Most of it is duty free. Whatever isn't attracts a very low rate of duty.

Moving on to GST/PST: When Canada had a manufacturer's sales tax many years ago, imports were not taxed. This put Canadian firms at a disadvantage relative to imported merchanise in this respect. The GST eliminated that inequality by iomposing the same rate on goods of Canadian and foreign origin. Unfortunately it also meant creating a border bureaucracy to handle it.

This is where brokerage comes in. If GST is to be charged, it requires paperwork and a transaction. This paperwork is handled by private sector brokers at the border for a fee. It gets paid (by us the consumers) one way or another whether the seller ships the goods by air or by ground. Only the accounting of it is more or less transparent. As mentioned by someone above, using the post-office attracts the lowest brokerage charge.

The reason why many US firms won't ship with USPS is because of inconvenience and cost to them. UPS or FedEx picks-up at their premises and they can file the paperwork electronically. Using the post office means going there, standing in line, and filling the export information by hand. Time is money - someone has to pay for this. Many of them just won't be bothered because they can't organize it into their systems. They're better off sacrificing the odd order from Canada which won't accept UPS or FEDEX shipping.

There isn't much prospect of any of this changing any time soon.

Based on what I've been told here in Toronto, I agree with the point above that on some equipment the GST exceeds the retailer's margin by a large multiple. The retail margins on some major equipment are ridiculously small these days. In the 1950s and 1960s this wasn't the case. Photo retailers had margins of about 40%. They could afford to discount 20% and still make 20%. They needed about 10% to keep the lights on, and the other 10% was profit. Today the whole margin can be less than 10% (plus some incentive payments) where distributors announce the retail pricing and of course set the wholesale price. To stay in business they jack-up the prices on other stuff where they aren't so constrained, and that largely explains why a bunch of small stuff is so much costlier from our Canadian outlets than it is from a place like B&H where the volume of business is so huge they can price very attractively accross the board.

These are the realities we face in Canada. I sense that the high dollar is increasing pressure on our wholesalers and retailers to be more competitive. The results are uneven because old habits die hard, but the longer this is maintained the more prices will tend to converge.

Warranties is another battleground. Canon is very good about this. Their warranty is valid in both Canada and the USA regardless of which of the two countries the camera or lens was purchased in. But Lacie and Sony, for example, are dreadful about this. Buy it outside Canada and they won't honour the US warranty in Canada. This should be illegal because it is a form of a restrictive trade practice. I'm not sure whether our competition law has some kind of provision that would accommodate a challenges to this practice. As far as I know, it hasn't been tested yet.

[PSA DC-9-30]

Thanks for all the detailed replies everyone. Very useful information.

Anyway, I was downtown today, so I went into London Drugs, not expecting to get a deal of any kind. But, I saw on their online flyer that the one lens kit was selling at $599, so I asked if they could give me a break on that plus the 40-150 that is included in the two lens kit. So the salesman said if I bought both items, he'd knock off $180 off the pre-tax total. So I got the one-lens kit, the 40-150, and a Tiffen UV filter for $860 out the door. Not bad considering BH would have been $650 for the kit + $50 shipping (cheapest option I saw on their site), + however much in tax + excange rate discrepancy, etc. I figured I'd buy it today, pay a little more, and save myself the hassle. Plus I want the camera now. Lenses and stuff I may still order from B&H at some point, so this is still useful info.

I thought about waiting a month for the E-520, but in addition to the fact that it would have cost more (I'm not a pro, and I am on a tight budget), I'm not all that excited about the 520 except for the expanded dynamic range, and I want to get started now with a decent dSLR. You could argue it both ways, but I'm happy with the choice I made.

[Digiteyesed]

I've been very happy with Camera Canada -- prolly spent over $10K there in the last 5 years. What's worth mentioning is that they'll usually chisel some off the amount you see on the site if you phone them and haggle. Send an e-mail to info [at] cameracanada [dot] com or phone their 1-800 # and ask for Joe Todd.

They've treated me so well that it feels like I have a camera store right next to my house even though I live in the middle of the boonies. There's no problem getting them to back you up if you have a problem with a purchase from them. Highly recommended.

(For the record, I'm not affiliated with them in any fashion.)

[Conner999]

While collecting GST, etc does require paperwork, etc - Canada Post does it on USPS shipments for their (seemingly variable) $5-8 fee.

UPS - I received a lens from a  private US seller yesterday via UPS. I'd asked for USPS, but he misread it and sent UPS.  

Declared value: $250
UPS "Brokerage (Line our Pockets) Fee" + HST (13%) = $77.28
HST on value: $32.5
Brokerage Fee + HST on same = $44.78

There is NO way to defend this.

They are simply sucking sellers/buyers in with a published low-priced service with the small print about 'brokerage fees and duties' and then deferring the other say 1/2 or 2/3rds of the actual freight charge to the receiver and calling it a 'brokerage' fee.

When an item ships with the more costly service options - no fee; yet same paperwork.
Even their own drivers shake their heads when I bring it up.  I do notice some US vendors no longer offer the low-ball UPS option to Canada - likely because of customer complaints.  

Paying say $60 to ship a lens from KEH is nasty, but at least you know the cost up front (and aren't charged HST on it). But to pay $25 and have the driver stick his hand out at the door for a thinly disguised shipping fee (plus HST since 'service' conducted in Canada) must have come as a shock to a lot of folks.

Warranties - try Nikon Canada. As of new year, they no longer service, even on your dime, any gear not bought in Canada. Lovely if you moved here from US, Europe.

This restrictive protection for their CDN retailers, most of whom couldn't hold a candle to any well known US shop re: knowledgeable staff, selection on hand, turn-around, prices and return policies is one reason keeping me from Nikon.

[Mark D Segal]

Brokerage Fee + HST on same = $44.78

Warranties - try Nikon Canada. As of new year, they no longer service, even on your dime, any gear not bought in Canada. Lovely if you moved here from US, Europe.

This restrictive protection for their CDN retailers, most of whom couldn't hold a candle to any well known US shop re: knowledgeable staff, selection on hand, turn-around, prices and return policies is one reason keeping me from Nikon.
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Yup - $40 is the customary UPS borkerage fee and the only way to avoid it is not using them or shipping by UPS Air, which ends-up costing about the same or a bit less. Unfortunately FedEx is even costlier.

As for Nikon's restrictive trade practice, the purpose is primarily to protect their own Canadian sales and service centers, and the retailers get protected in the package.

[joneil]

As for Nikon's restrictive trade practice, the purpose is primarily to protect their own Canadian sales and service centers, and the retailers get protected in the package.
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 I understand that fully, but I still disagree with that.  In my case, I bought my Nikon D40 in the USA this past year simply because on the second day of vacation my digital camera I brought with me was "gone".  

     Lost, or perhaps even stolen, but point is, for me,  I had the choice of buying a new camera in the USA or going my whole vacation without a camera.   So now if my camera breaks down in Canada, no service.  Weird thing is, if I was in the USA, and had a Canadian purchased camera, and it needed service, I suppose they would not do it in the USA either.

     The other thing is, and this goes for computers and other electronic and digital devices as well, a lot of people travel back and forth across the boarder, vacation, business, even  just to visit family.  So what happens?  In the view of Nikon and other companies, are we supposed to have a different camera for each country we visit?

 If anyone is from Nikon and reading this - and dares to admit they are reading this - if I switch to Canon for my next digital SLR, the number one primary reason for the switch will be be cause of your warranty stand.  And that's form a "Nikon man" going back over 25 years.

[CJL]

As for Nikon's restrictive trade practice, the purpose is primarily to protect their own Canadian sales and service centers, and the retailers get protected in the package.
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I would think this policy hurts Nikon's service centres a lot more than it helps them.  With most Nikon gear being covered by a 2 or 5 year warranty now, it means the majority of the service and repair work they do is for free.  If they serviced items purchased outside Canada and charged for the work, they would generate a lot more revenue... and profit.

[Mark D Segal]

I would think this policy hurts Nikon's service centres a lot more than it helps them.  With most Nikon gear being covered by a 2 or 5 year warranty now, it means the majority of the service and repair work they do is for free.  If they serviced items purchased outside Canada and charged for the work, they would generate a lot more revenue... and profit.
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The whole idea of honouring a warranty is to honour it here wherever issued and NOT to charge for the work during the warranty period.