Graduated neutral density filters - the usage?

[jools230575]

Hi people

May I ask why there is scant information on the use of neutral density grads? These little wonders never seem to have anything written about them in detail.

My questions are:

1) Where did you all learn about them? Books? teachers? etc

2) Where do you place the line for both hard and soft grads? Is it the horizion?

3) For soft grads is the end of the graduation the horizon?

4) I've just received the Lee Filters Inspiring Professionals book. Very nice it is too but it does not provide much in the way of detailed use of the grads as stated by the advert for it. It gives very nice diagrams of the positioning of them. For me I found it intriguing that you could use a grad on a city scape! What F number would be used for this?

5) The Lee book threw a slight curve ball. It suggests that if the sky and groud are 3 stops apart that you use a 2 stop (0.6). I thought that it would have been a 0.9. Is this just down to creativity?

6) Hard or soft grad? Which one for which situation/ s?

7) Why does no-one ever fully explain the use of these wonders?

I've posted these questions on another board and I get one of the stock answers: Just be creative!

This is abolsute nonsense. EVERYBODY needs to be taught how to do things and then progress onwards to creativity. To suggest that we are born with the knowledge is utter rubbish.

Personally I teach martial arts. I would not expect someone to know the ins and outs of something and be able to creatively use and understand something without first having taught them some knowledge. This is logical!

If anyone out there can provide some help I would be most grateful. I've never found a subject so mystifying. Why oh why is there not detailed instructions out there!!!

Anyone willing to take up the challenge?

Looking forward to some interesting responses  

Jools

PS I know about blending in Photoshop but to me that is cheating! Also the images can look a little odd!

[wolfnowl]

You might want to check this out:  http://singhray.blogspot.com/

Mike.

[Paul Sumi]

You might want to check this out:  http://singhray.blogspot.com/

Mike.
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These articles predate digital but are still very informative.

[a href=\"http://singhray.blogspot.com/2006/10/from-archive-using-graduated-neutral.html]http://singhray.blogspot.com/2006/10/from-...ed-neutral.html[/url]

http://singhray.blogspot.com/2006/10/from-...al-density.html

Paul

[scrinch]

If you are shooting digital, use a tripod and have access to PhotoShop I find little use for ND graduated filters , or any filters except Polorizers for glare and ND filters to slow shutter speeds or decrease aperatures.

A cool trick to get increased shadow and/or highlight detail is to shoot on a tripod and use 3 different exposures. (Normal + and - ) Then in PS copy, paste the normal exposure over the exposure that contains the detail you want.  Using the eraser tool at about 20%+- you can erase away the overlay and gain the detail of the underlying layer.  Like a ND filter but with total control.

[wolfnowl]

There are photographers who use film and those who use digital.  Some shoot Canon, others Nikon, Pentax, Hasselblad, Olympus or Ebony.  Some use filters and some don't.  Some like to get things right 'in camera', and some prefer post-processing.  Some are comfortable spending hours or days in front of a computer tweaking an image, some aren't.  There are many choices, and everyone gets to decide what's right for him or her.

Mike.

[jools230575]

Thanks for all the replies.

I prefer to get it right in camera.

Personally I believe the "art" of photography, the tradition skill, will get lost in the mists of time if we're not careful. I like to know how to do things properly!

Keep suggestions coming!

[wollom]

Thanks for all the replies.

I prefer to get it right in camera.

Personally I believe the "art" of photography, ... <snip>
 I like to know how to do things properly!

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=199721\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Jools, I've got to admire your enthusiasm and confidence.

Like you, I think there's space to be taught photographic techniques; to me that is about 'craft'.

As for what is 'right' and what is 'art'; a single definition of either of those is likely to be confounded the instant it is expounded.

---
In your original post you asked about the 'right' positioning and density of a graduated filter for a landscape/city-scape image.  Most often the aim is to visually balance (not necessarily make the same) the brightness between 'sky' and 'ground' so the filter is positioned to achieve that 'technical' aim in the most convincing way.  In practice that means the graduation will be visible from the horizon or a little above.  BUT, what about a colour graduated filter (often blue or brown)? What using two filters– a hard .6 blue on the sky, and  soft warming .3 graduated filter in the inverse orientation on the ground? Graduated filters can be used subtly or for dramatic effect, the photographer chooses.  In the end, the 'proper' way to use a graduated filter is the way that gives a result the photographer (or the client) wants.

If you think about it, the 'real' world has three dimensions, a wide brightness range, and large colour gamut; a photograph is two dimensional and finite in brightness range and colour. The way we see the world is influenced by our individual experiences and emotions.  A whole lot of the thought, effort, craft and occasionally 'art' of photography is about translating that 'real' world into an image that gives an impression of what the photographer wants to 'see'. So with filters, like most other photographic tools, it is possible to explain what they do, but difficult to encompass all the ways they can be used.

Cheers

Wollom

[jools230575]

Thanks Wollom.

I believe that there is scope to teach people.

Having learnt how to teach people (not in photography but martial arts) over a number of years; the fundamental thing that everybody is taught, no matter what the subject, is that you have to teach someone a basic knowledge of what you are doing.

When these filters were first devised I am damn sure that the first users didn't go, "Ah, you use it like this!" NO!!! Someone, somewhere must have written out a basic instruction guide of how these things were to be used.

I can never understand why it is that when I pose a question like I did you just get the old "go out and practice"; "use them creatively".

When I read books on them you get the old "position the grad line on the horizon"; the difference of exposure between the sky and the ground is the grad that you use"; "measure off of mid grey, then take off X number of stops to get your exposure".

There is never anything about, for example, how using a particular F Stop affects the final image.

As stated in the beginning of this thread I was fascinated looking at the Lee Filters book. To see grads used in city scapes where the grad is over some of the buildings. Didn't even enter into my mind that they could be effectively used this way without creating a dark line across the picture.

Please explain to me why photographers just hoard knowledge!

If someone wants to find out about composition, for example, there are loads of books out there. Why never detailed instructional use of grads?

[wollom]

As stated in the beginning of this thread I was fascinated looking at the Lee Filters book. To see grads used in city scapes where the grad is over some of the buildings. Didn't even enter into my mind that they could be effectively used this way without creating a dark line across the picture.

Please explain to me why photographers just hoard knowledge!

If someone wants to find out about composition, for example, there are loads of books out there. Why never detailed instructional use of grads?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202121\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hey Jools.

I'm not really going to try to answer your comments but...

- the answer to a lot of questions that start with: 'Why don't they...?' is 'money'.  (that's a quote from someone) Publishing is time consuming and expensive - the www is changing this a bit though.

- I reckon photographers are pretty generous with knowledge; this forum for example.  But photography is about making images, not writing, so maybe that's a factor.

- I think you kind of hit the nub of it when you said: 'Didn't even enter into my mind that they could be effectively used this way...'  When it comes to image-making there are a zillion ways to get a good result.  Show a room full of people how to make a 'correctly' exposed pic and at least one person is sure to come back with something blown out by three of four stops that looks fantastic, but not 'correct'.  

In part I think you are asking about why you are finding it difficult to do research by reading, at some point in this field the most efficient research is experimental–practice and play (creativity).
At lot of the elements of photography have been developed by observation and experimentation.  With composition for example, it's possible to know the 'rule of thirds' and 'the golden mean' and still not make an effective photograph. The 'rules' are really just guidelines to give a starting point for further subjective refinement.

But hey! I'll give the Grad (Graduated Filter) Manual a go:
-Grads vary the brightness (and possibly colour) across an image
-Grads can be positioned over any part of a lens, image plane or light source.
-Grads can positioned at any angle.
-More than one grad can be used at a time.
-The density of the the grad effect can be varied using different grads, stacking grads, or positioning the grad partly over the lens.
-The graduated transition is more defined with shorter focal length lenses, and small apertures (larger f numbers), and the grad positioned further from the lens.
-Grads on a lens can reduce optical quality.
-Most grad effects can be simulated in Photoshop (with the exception of single exposure luminance range modulation)
-Choosing the type, position and orientation of grad(s) is subjective.


Cheers

Wollom

[jools230575]

Hey

Now that's great. Thanks!

There was a little nugget of information in there that I hadn't come across before. That being that the further away from the lens that the filter is, the more defined it is!

I did read somewhere that a guy asked Charlie Waite on the use of grads. Apparently the advice was to chuck away his Cokin Holder and position it on the lens with blu-tak!

Personally I have recently bought a Lee Filters startrer kit (not had the time to use it yet due to studies) and a wide angle adapter that holds the holder closer to the lens. Can't wait to see how much more difference that makes  

Shorter focal length. Being thick (it's early) are you meaning lens like an 18mm; 14mm etc?

[wollom]

Now that's great. Thanks!
<snip>
Apparently the advice was to chuck away his Cokin Holder and position it on the lens with blu-tak!

Personally I have recently bought a Lee Filters startrer kit <snip>

Shorter focal length. Being thick (it's early) are you meaning lens like an 18mm; 14mm etc?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hope 'the manual' helps.

I think the Lee holders are great.  They help with repeatability and reduce scratching of acetate filters. If there is a light source (like the sun) directly above the camera it's worth shading the slots of the filter holder to reduce stray light reflections. Blutak is fine but tends to leave a residue. On the run, just holding a filter against the front of a lens works well, but tends to scratch acetate filters.

Shorter focal length- You've got it. If everything else is the same (aperture, subject distance, etc) the grad transition is more abrupt with say 50mm vs 100mm; or 14mm vs 18mm.  It's worth shooting at a range of apertures (f4, f 8, f16 or whatever) when using grads to give a choice effects.

You can custom shape your own grads by cutting a ragged edge (with [a href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinking_shears]pinking shears[/url]) out of ND gel like the Lee 298.  Optical quality is modest,  so don't tell optical aficionados you are using lighting gel in front of a lens.

Wollom

[JDClements]

I prefer to get it right in camera.

Personally I believe the "art" of photography, the tradition skill, will get lost in the mists of time if we're not careful.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=199721\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You mean, like, burning and dodging in the darkroom and all the other manipulations that were done to create prints from negatives *after* the picture was taken in the camera?  

[Gordon Buck]

May I ask why there is scant information on the use of neutral density grads? These little wonders never seem to have anything written about them in detail.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=199590\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Go to Amazon.com, select "Books", type "photography neutral density graduated filter" in the search box and you'll get 113 hits.  Most are general purpose books but a few of these seem to be specific to filters.