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Author Topic: 580EX Off Camera + Second Curtain?  (Read 8812 times)

dwdallam

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580EX Off Camera + Second Curtain?
« on: June 03, 2008, 02:41:53 am »

I've really been digging into the use of the Canon 580+ series because I think I can do 95% of my location work with 4-6 of them, which means I can leave the studio strobes and battery packs home. Flash guns are just so powerful now that the real challenge isn't getting more power, but controlling the head (as in making your own tape on grid spots and cine foil snoots and flags, where gaffers tape is truly your best friend--lol). However, really controlling all aspects of these flashes is a little like performing Voodoo.

Thus:

(1) I had my 580EX off camera today and I could not get it to accept Second Curtain flash. Is this possible? Please tell me it is. For action shots using off camera flash, second curtain is a must.

(2) The infrared control between the STE2 or while using a Master and Slave combination using two flashes outdoors is COMPLETELY useless, unless you want to stand directly in back of the slaves infrared receiver. Is there a way to convert these flashes to radio control?
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macgyver

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580EX Off Camera + Second Curtain?
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2008, 01:19:54 pm »

For question number two: http://www.radiopopper.com/ is now making products that lets you do the IR ETTL over radio. Might help out. Otherwise, just go with pocket wizards.

For your first question try the discussion board over at strobist.com, if there's an answer they will have it.
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timhurst

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580EX Off Camera + Second Curtain?
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2008, 03:27:58 pm »

Quote
(1) I had my 580EX off camera today and I could not get it to accept Second Curtain flash. Is this possible? Please tell me it is. For action shots using off camera flash, second curtain is a must.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=199482\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You're out of luck with that one - on camera only but should trigger slave units if set as master. I gave up with using Canon flash off camera (PITA) and now have PWs and a bunch of Nikon SB-28s which are just as powerful, much cheaper, more stable and have built in pc sockets.
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Alaska

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580EX Off Camera + Second Curtain?
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2008, 03:41:50 pm »

Quote
Is there a way to convert these flashes to radio control?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=199482\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Added a mini connector to the 580 so that a Wizard could be used.  There was a nice how to on the net with images.  Just a matter of drilling a hole and soldering in two wires.  Works like a charm.

Jim
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dwdallam

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580EX Off Camera + Second Curtain?
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2008, 02:21:00 am »

It looks like the Radio Popper uses the STE transmitter for full ETTL radio control--very nice system. All other radio controllers hooked to the Canon flashes will only work in manual mode--which isn't a show stopper. But if you can get full functionality from your STE transmitter and radio control, isn't that the way to go?

The only problem is that the Radio Popper isn't due for another 3-6 months.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2008, 03:52:47 am by dwdallam »
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Lightbox

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580EX Off Camera + Second Curtain?
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2008, 06:01:37 am »

I too can recommend the Nikon SB-28's, I still have a 580EX but have since bought 2 SB-28's and use them all with PW's. I remember a long time ago trying to get second curtain sync to work with the 580EX off camera, but was very disappointed that it never worked, and to later find out it was not possible using the Canon system.

I recently did this mod to my 580EX to allow direct connection to a PW, a very simple process which Canon should have included in the first place.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2008, 06:01:54 am by Lightbox »
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Alaska

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580EX Off Camera + Second Curtain?
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2008, 04:50:16 pm »

Quote
But if you can get full functionality from your STE transmitter and radio control, isn't that the way to go?

The only problem is that the Radio Popper isn't due for another 3-6 months.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=199660\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Would agree if one needs full functionality.  But for two bucks you just can't beat the price of doing the mod.  And YES, Canon should have included a sync port on the unit.
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dwdallam

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580EX Off Camera + Second Curtain?
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2008, 03:55:58 am »

Quote
Would agree if one needs full functionality.  But for two bucks you just can't beat the price of doing the mod.  And YES, Canon should have included a sync port on the unit.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=199742\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


The 580EX II does have a sync port now (PC connection). The fully functioning Radio Popper is a very, very seductive solution. If you use the SB flashes, though, you're fully manual again, right? It's not that big of a deal really. If you're using more than one flash, you have to set the exposure differently on each unit anyway. It would just be nice to be able to set the manual exposures without having to run over to each light. I think the Radio Popper allows you to retain the STE-2's control over the light from the unit itself--the light ratios. You know, that's really nice to be able to do. If I'm not mistaken, you can set the ratio of the master (key) light and for instance, dial in +-EV for the other flashes. Then when you change the output of the Master, the ratio increases or decreases automatically for the slaves. That sort of functionality really does help work flow, especially in fast paced environment.
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timhurst

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580EX Off Camera + Second Curtain?
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2008, 04:54:32 am »

Quote
The 580EX II does have a sync port now (PC connection).
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes it does but I don't believe it's fully functional in all modes so check it out very carefully. Typical Canon hamstringing it so you can only use it how they see fit.

Also if you buy a top end ETTL flash (Canon or Nikon) and only use in manual with radio slaves you are kind of wasting your money - paying for lots of stuff you'll never use. Reason I went for second hand SB28s.

Check out [a href=\"http://michaelbass.blogspot.com/]http://michaelbass.blogspot.com/[/url]
He does all sorts of funky mods, gadgets and upgrades for strobes.

Quote
If you use the SB flashes, though, you're fully manual again, right? It's not that big of a deal really. If you're using more than one flash, you have to set the exposure differently on each unit anyway.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=199851\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes

Quote
I think the Radio Popper allows you to retain the STE-2's control over the light from the unit itself--the light ratios. You know, that's really nice to be able to do. If I'm not mistaken, you can set the ratio of the master (key) light and for instance, dial in +-EV for the other flashes. Then when you change the output of the Master, the ratio increases or decreases automatically for the slaves. That sort of functionality really does help work flow, especially in fast paced environment.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=199851\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I believe all that is true. All depends on how you work and if you're happy with ETTL. Under job conditions I found it fiddly and stressful (go back to interface school canon) and much prefer the simple control and stability of manual operation.
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dwdallam

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580EX Off Camera + Second Curtain?
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2008, 07:10:00 am »

Quote
Yes it does but I don't believe it's fully functional in all modes so check it out very carefully. Typical Canon hamstringing it so you can only use it how they see fit.

Also if you buy a top end ETTL flash (Canon or Nikon) and only use in manual with radio slaves you are kind of wasting your money - paying for lots of stuff you'll never use. Reason I went for second hand SB28s.

Check out http://michaelbass.blogspot.com/
He does all sorts of funky mods, gadgets and upgrades for strobes.
Yes
I believe all that is true. All depends on how you work and if you're happy with ETTL. Under job conditions I found it fiddly and stressful (go back to interface school canon) and much prefer the simple control and stability of manual operation.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=199857\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Yeah Canon flashes are very cryptic and fussy, such as no second curtain flash off camera.

I think I have everything pretty much figured out at this point. I actually went through each function several times before it started to sink in, and using it in real life and looking at the light spread on the images.

It SHOULD NOT be that hard. You expect that type of obfuscation with car stereos, such as trying to link up much less use a Bluetooth device with them, but I would think car stereo engineers are a lot less apt than Canon engineers. There really is no excuse.

The way I see the Canon 580 now is in three blocks.

The first block is ETTL and EV adjustments, that, in real use, make it almost like manual mode, but you find the sweet spot faster because the camera is good at setting the flash for fill. And that's the key. The flash is always fill in ETTL, unless the ambient light is so low as to provoke the flash into being a key light. So knowing that, if you want to use the flash as a key, such as in shade, I just crank it up +2 or more. That usually does it. Now you're using it like manual mode pretty much, but the EV doesn't give you as much latitude as manual mode. I mean I don't think you can get full flash power using EV in some instances, and you don't know which instances, but I may be wrong. That's a confusing area with Canon flashes.

The second block is manual mode. Use the histogram and walk it up or down where you need it. If I need fill flash, I do not use this mode. Again, if you need second curtain sync because your doing people who are moving and using slow shutter speeds, you are out of luck--thank you Canon.

The third block is just filed in my head as "special functions," such as stroboscopic, curtain sync, High Speed synch, and I think that's about it.

Once you have the button pushes down, the stress goes way down. It's just those stupid button pushes that screw with you. I like the one where when you want to use manual mode off camera, you push the mode button for 2 seconds, or you can't access the manual option on the LCD. On camera, and you just use the mode button to cycle through to it. OK Canon, why not keep the button pushes the same for each function? That's frustrating as hell.

I also like the idea of flashes per second Hz and number of flashes explained in the manual under Stroboscopic use, which no one here has yet to figure out, including me (another thread I started).  

Other than that. It's pretty easy now with the frustrations of limitations that are NOT mentioned in the manual. But I had to do it repeated times to start getting the hang of how the stupid Canon flashes work. They are made to be fully auto, or they are just simply badly laid out.

The way I see Canon flashes is that they are more "fun" that professional oriented, unless you leave them on camera for full functionality and use ETTL all the time with  only EV adjustments--which does work quite well, even with bounce flash. But it's just not right.

Maybe that's why pro commercial photographers almost always use Nikon equipment--not talking about wedding photogs, but commercial fast paced photographers.
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dwdallam

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580EX Off Camera + Second Curtain?
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2008, 04:30:37 am »

I wanted to ask another question instead of trying to figure out yet another Canon encrypted manual.

If you are using the STE-2, can you change power output for a single or even multiple flashes ON camera, or is that only the case with the new 580EX II? Also, can you control the EX II off camera without the STE-2 using the 1DS3? How does that work?

I'm getting annoyed with trying to figure out what to do here, not because of the multiple areas of Canon logic, but because we seem to be in a transition period with new technology such as the Radio Popper and the 1DS3 and new EX II controls from the camera.

What I'd like to be able to do is control the flash gun FROM my 1DS3--output, etc., in both ETTL and Manual modes by using a radio control, which I guess as of right now is the Radio Popper unit only. And what I think will hold these Radio controls back, perhaps, is that both the receiver and transmitter are 180.00US each. 180.00 for EACH receiver! All of this could have been avoided is Nikon and Canon would have used radio control in the first place.

If I bought the EX II and already have the STE-2, could I buy the Radio Popper set up and have it do what I want--control the flash in both ETTL and manual off camera suing radio control? In a really fast paced environment, such as outdoors where light is changing every 10 minutes, having to run around and adjust output is really annoying, and time consuming. As you can see, I'm really not looking forward to digging through Canon manuals again

It just seems that lately people who hire me, how can I put this, start to wander off mentally when they have to wait more than 10 seconds from light setup, metering, and shutter release. It doesn't matter if you tell them every time the light shifts (outdoors) or they move 3 feet the flash has to be reset to get accurate effects and exposures. Thus, being able to set the light parameters ON camera when the flash guns are OFF camera would be a stress reducer. I'm begging to think this phenomenon is a result of society moving faster and faster every year: Get married in 3 months, have kids in 6, get divorced in 1 year, start a new career, 10 months later start another career, 18 months later get married again, sheesh. I must be getting old. By the time I get a Canon manual figured out, other people have lived an entire life compared to me.

"So what do you have in mind for your pictures?"
"Well, I want to get them done fast."
"OK, so what type of lighting do you think you might want to start with, dramatic, natural, available?"
"Whatever is fastest."
"Sure, and what type of poses do you think you need."
"Whatever is fastest."
"Ok, great, and do you have a preference for a location?"
"Yeah, I was thinking about whatever is fastest."
"So we have about 150 shots. When do you need them?"
"Two years ago."
« Last Edit: June 24, 2008, 04:33:06 am by dwdallam »
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