Leica R8/R9 DMR Experience

[hobbsr]

Hi All,

I wanted to see if anybody here has experience with the Leica DMR unit as have an option to pick this kit up at a good price. I have tested and the images look great and really like the feel of the body and the size of files and having access to the R lens.

I know that there is no future for this as they move to the rumored R10 with a larger than full 35mm with sensor of 40 megapixel to take on hasselblad. With that said the 19.5 mb files and quality is great from the DMR unit just wanted to see what views anybody has to offer any advice.

Thanks in advance.

Rodney

[EricWHiss]

I've got a r8/DMR and its a great camera.  I got some ribbing from people here on the MF forum for posting a DMR image to the recent images post but I don't think anyone would have been able to tell the difference between those files and any MF back. They are that close, and the Leica lenses are excellent. In many ways the DMR is much more like a MF DB than not. The DMR fits onto the camera easily and you can switch back and forth with a film back if you want or just open it to clean the sensor.      I wouldn't hesitate to recommend this kit to anyone.  If you have any other questions feel free to ask.

[James R Russell]

I've got a r8/DMR and its a great camera.  I got some ribbing from people here on the MF forum for posting a DMR image to the recent images post but I don't think anyone would have been able to tell the difference between those files and any MF back. They are that close, and the Leica lenses are excellent. In many ways the DMR is much more like a MF DB than not. The DMR fits onto the camera easily and you can switch back and forth with a film back if you want or just open it to clean the sensor.      I wouldn't hesitate to recommend this kit to anyone.  If you have any other questions feel free to ask.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=198333\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I love the R-9 and have come close to buying it a few times but always backed off, mainly because of the crop factor, focusing through the crop and I didn't have R lenses which even used can be quite an investment.

The test files I shot with it are great, but it's kind of a dead end system.

Like everyone I have heard rumors of the R-10 both ways, that it will and will not happen and though I have no inside information on any camera I do know that this would be a heck of an undertaking.

If a camera like the R-10 ever happens it brings up an intersting thought of a new format, because there is really no reason we continue with legacy formats of film, other than the fact there are already lenses and camera bodies in the marketplace.

My dream camera would be something like a fat 35, where the sensor size is around 40x30mm and if you hold the camera vertical it goes 4:3 if you turn it horizontal it goes 2:3 format.

Those are the two frame sizes I mostly shoot to as the hotizontal is perfect for computer screens and double page spreads, 4:3 for most vertical single pages.

In fact I find that we shoot as more horiztonals as we do verticals which in the film days it was the other way around.

JR

[paulmoorestudio]

Hi All,

I wanted to see if anybody here has experience with the Leica DMR unit as have an option to pick this kit up at a good price. I have tested and the images look great and really like the feel of the body and the size of files and having access to the R lens.

I know that there is no future for this as they move to the rumored R10 with a larger than full 35mm with sensor of 40 megapixel to take on hasselblad. With that said the 19.5 mb files and quality is great from the DMR unit just wanted to see what views anybody has to offer any advice.

Thanks in advance.

Rodney
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=198280\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have been using a r9dmr since nov 05 - for all my small camera work, I think it is great.
I am hoping for a r10, to bring the sensor up in size and am very interested if they make it a more usable format.. I thought the jr comment about switching formats when going from vertical to horizontal really funny.. I rarely shoot vertical with it, so I am laughing in agreement.
I would like my mfdb to be more a studio camera and if the r10 comes in as desired than I will be using it more than I do in the studio..so my advice is go for it.  I started using flexcolor with it but for the last year or so I  have used cs2 acr with good success.  It is a pleasure to shoot with and it has not let me down.

[wolfnowl]

You might want to ask that question here: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/

Mike.

[hobbsr]

Hi All,

Thanks for the comments, yes James it is a bit of a dead end system but I think you still use the Contax 645 so in my way of thinking if I can get 5 years of good service from it that it has paid for it self? I did some further test shots and the files are very special to my eyes and the option of the glass while can be expensive it great.

I also see that while there might not be a path to the R10 system due to the new sensor size and lens required it will serve for me to save my pennies up and at this stage the idea of a great 10mp sensor and the resulting 19.5mb files is attractive.

Will also have to adopt James view that I better keep this to myself to help reduce the ebay demand in the future.

Regards

[hobbsr]

Hi,

Here is a snap taken just walking around earlier today, it is looking up in one of the many lane ways around melbourne. Not the greatest shot but does show what i think the IQ is of the R9/DMR system.


[attachment=6812:attachment]

[Conner999]

Check also www.getdpi.com - lot of DMR, high-end DSLR and MFDB experience among the users

[EricWHiss]

I tested the DR of DMR and canon 1D3 a year or more back with the Imatest software and posted the results on a couple forums.  The long and short is that the DMR has about 1.5 stops more usable DR than the new canons. It's going to give you a file closer to MFDB than other DSLR's.  It's probably got a bit less DR (1 stop?) than my p20 but still pretty good and its ISO 800 is usable.

The DMR also does in camera correction for vignetting if you use the ROM coded lenses.

And I don't think I need to say how great the leica glass is.

[James R Russell]

Hi All,

Thanks for the comments, yes James it is a bit of a dead end system but I think you still use the Contax 645 so in my way of thinking if I can get 5 years of good service from it that it has paid for it self? I did some further test shots and the files are very special to my eyes and the option of the glass while can be expensive it great.

I also see that while there might not be a path to the R10 system due to the new sensor size and lens required it will serve for me to save my pennies up and at this stage the idea of a great 10mp sensor and the resulting 19.5mb files is attractive.

Will also have to adopt James view that I better keep this to myself to help reduce the ebay demand in the future.

Regards
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=198506\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Your right I don't mind dead in systems and have the 100 lbs of Contax stuff to show for it, though that is more because the state of medium format cameras and what is available.

If I liked the H series I would have gone that route, or if the Hy6 would work on all digital backs I would think about it also.  As far as the new Phase camera they have improved the feel and use of it but I am still amazed that not one single "645" medium format camera that is offered today has a right angle grip.

Working all day in verticle mode and hand holding is a pain without a right angle grip and I know that the Sinar version's back rotates, but I shoot a lot of Horizontal, then vertical, then horizontal and nothing is really faster than just turning the camera.

Not to take this off topic but medium format needs some heavy investment in fast lenses.  I know everyone keeps talking about leaf shutters, but nothing is more useable than fast glass, especailly in medium format where the iso is usually limited to around 800 and there is going to be more light fall of from even a small 645 camera than a 35mm, so every bit helps.

Basically though I use the Contax because everytime I go to look at something new it just doesn't do much more than what I presently own and actually in some ways it doesn't do it as well or as easily and I'm positive that no new camera will work with the same stability as the Contax because there is absoltuely no new firmware to update, no lcd menus to set preferrences, nothing other than set the shutter, set the lens and make a photograph.

Oh and even at the slightly inflated prices the Contax is still very inexpensive and sells for less than the new prices for most basic items.

The Leica is just another thing all together because the glass is expensive and cropping a 35mm frame made it difficult for me to focus.

I am positive I would have bought a dmr had it been full frame and a few more pixels, but to invest that much money in glass and still have a cropped sensor on a 35mm just didn't make sense for my work, though nobody can deny the quality of the Leica.

It really is a work of art.

JR

[Gigi]

Both JR and Eric are on the right track:

Had a DMR, and the image quality was superb. Just wonderful color tonality - really like a MFDB. But I couldn't deal with the weight and the camera position, and traded it in for an M8, which is almost as nice, but not quite the same. While composing is more accurate on the DMR to be sure, I can't really work with that size anymore - and the larger MF screen/viewfinder makes all the difference.

So yes, if it works for you - its wonderful. If not, think about the Contax, another solution that gives great image quality. For those of us who still like waist level finders and square shooting, well, there is always film and the Rollei/Hassy V.

[eronald]

Both JR and Eric are on the right track:

Had a DMR, and the image quality was superb. Just wonderful color tonality - really like a MFDB. But I couldn't deal with the weight and the camera position, and traded it in for an M8, which is almost as nice, but not quite the same. While composing is more accurate on the DMR to be sure, I can't really work with that size anymore - and the larger MF screen/viewfinder makes all the difference.

So yes, if it works for you - its wonderful. If not, think about the Contax, another solution that gives great image quality. For those of us who still like waist level finders and square shooting, well, there is always film and the Rollei/Hassy V.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=198616\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think for the money a Mamiya ZD or ZD back combo would be a better deal. The glass ain't so good, but the format more than makes up for it.

Edmund

[hobbsr]

Hi,

Did consider a ZD back but was unable to get a demo to see as have a Mamiya 645 AFD II body. I have only been able to go off reviews and other threads which did not leave me with a great confidence about this as an option.

I can clearly understand the size of the sensor and I believe this is the same or close to the sensor in the Sinar e22? It think the main issue is the iso performance the Leica DMR option while a dead end system, provides a great range and the IQ of the files is like having a small MFDB in a 35mm box. I also see an advantage in the crop lines.

RH

[Conner999]

Owned an R8 and loved the ergos. Absolute joy to use. Thought about moving to DMR and used one from friend. Great IQ, etc. That said, it is $5000+ for a cropped 35mm with AWB that can be a bit 'odd' at times.

Instead opted for Leica glass on a 5D and now 1Ds2. The lenses from Leica are second to none and REALLY make the Canon sensors come to life like EF glass just can't.   Have owned, own or tested the 28/2.8 V2 (now for sale), 50/2, 60/2.8 M, 80/1.4, 90/2, 90/2 APO, 100/2.8M, 180/3.4 APO, 180/2.8 APO, 180/2 APO, 35/2 and probably couple others. Faves were/are the 28/2.8 V2, 35/2, 80 'Lux and 180/2.8 APO.

Ok, now that the praise is out of the way, there are some drawbacks to going Leica R. You're paying a BIG premium, even used, for an extra Nth % in performance over Zeiss or even some MF lenses via an SLR adapter. The lenses are also slow to sell second hand if you decide you want to shift around your glass. Small market.

Service turnaround from Leica (if the gear has to go to Solms) can be horrendous - can sometimes be measured in months, even for a simple CLA. They are a small almost bespoke shop and they do things on their schedule, not yours.

Also, IF an R10 as people hope/expect it to be (pro-level integrated grip FF DSLR sans AA filter) doesn't materialize at Photokina, prices on used R glass will drop significantly as it will signify an effective end to the Leica R glass line (when was the last time Leica introduced a new R lens?).

There is also some concern, as much as it makes no business sense, that any new R10, IF it appears (and there is a LOT of doubt about that) may be AF and if so,  MAY not be compatible or easily compatible (trip to Solms or adapter) with legacy glass. Again, makes no sense from a business perspective, but we're talking Leica here ;>

More seriously, Leica execs when asked this question in any number of interviews have refused to even confirm that older glass will be mountable on any new body - IF it comes to fruition.  

There is no question that the Leica gear delivers the goods, but you need to go in with your eyes wide open. If I had an unlimited budget and multiple top-quality bodies as backups , I'd buy a DMR. Sadly that budget doens't exist.

On the glass side, the IQ is there in spades; IQ that can be milked further using the AA filter-less DMR. That said, I'd look at testing some R glass first on a top Canon body as part of my eval process.  

I tested a DMR against my 1Ds2 using the same R lens and the shots were indistinguishable, which says a lot for the DMR, but also means there are less expensive body options out there with which to use that lovely glass.

[vgogolak]

I happen to own TWO dead end systems, the DMR and the Contax645. As with James, every time I try something new, there is just not enough, if ANY, improvement over what I have.

For the DMR, it has been compared to both 5D and 1DsII. It has two advantages over both; lack of AA filter and higher dynamic range.

The R9 itself is a great,if large (in my hands) camera. files are excenent and have reach to 20"x30" as demonstarted by a few in other threads here and LUF. See that page for more details.

I have recently looked 1dsIII and D300 and D3 and saw nothing extra (except AF, that I do not use)

As for dead end, this is more likely to become a minor classic. EVen the Digilux 2 is a popular item though discontinued. Leica produced cameras, the M8, R9/DMR and the Digilux 2 that produce images that are engaging and both serious amateurs and professionals use and like.

The biggest advantage is Leica glass. The FF advantage of the 5D and 1dsII and III are lost when you see the WA Leica lenses cannot be used. However, you CAN use Hasselblad to fine work with an adapter.

Anyway, it is something you may find surprisingly satisfying.

And of course, you will then have the lead into the R10 :-)

regards
Victor

[vgogolak]

BTW the DMR is no slouch in the resolution department.

[Conner999]

Correct me , but the DMR is 16-bit capture as well right?
Man, would love to try one for B&W work I'm doing. the 1Ds2 is amazing, but the handling of the R8-9, the VF and switchology not to mention no AA filter and modest (1.37) crop is nice.

Can't recall - does the R8/9 allow multi-point spot metering (meter up to 8 spots (1Ds2) and camera does running average setting in AV)?

Using WAs on the 5D is a PITA due to mirror clearance variances between bodies, on the 1 Series, the 28 is no issue. The 19 can be us if the rear shroud is filed down. The 15 forget it.

[hobbsr]

Hi All,

Thanks for the vert valuable input, I have reviewed the DMR files again and am amzed at the ability to put these around very diffiernet in my mind to what I can get form my D3/D300 combo and the feel of the images is something that I really like.

I think the comments about dead end system is great, while I don't have this with what I use I see that if I had had this R9/DMR system when you look at the new products like the D3 they don't offer better IQ there is the iso perfroemance but pure IQ I really think that Leica missed something here as the R9/DMR really to me is a small format MFDB.....

Anyway trying to see if I can construct a deal for a used outfit or will wait for the R10 and bargin hunt.

Rodney

[Conner999]

Keep an eye on the R10 rumors - if the camera fails to appear/impress (e.g. more bridge than pro body), DMR prices may rise (Leica's first and only pro DSLR, etc) -- as glass prices fall.

If the R10 does impress and easily takes MF R glass, the reverse, as you indicate, will be the case: DMR prices fall, glass prices rise.

[Gigi]

....when you look at the new products like the D3 they don't offer better IQ there is the iso perfroemance but pure IQ I really think that Leica missed something here as the R9/DMR really to me is a small format MFDB.....

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The DMR is just that - a more modestly sized, lesser priced MFDB - with the Kodak chip, the Imacon software, and the Leica lenses. Plus a level of precision - altho my R8 had to goo back to get aligned just right with the DMR. After that, just amazing quality. All this talk makes one wonder. Still, I had trouble holding that much weight up to my eye for long periods. Mind you, it is the same with the big Nikon/Canons of this class as well - so maybe its just preferences.

If the size/weight are not an issue for you, it is a great setup.