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Author Topic: PhaseOne P25 ISO test. 200/400/800  (Read 83344 times)

thsinar

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PhaseOne P25 ISO test. 200/400/800
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2008, 09:52:23 pm »

Absolutely right, Edmund: there is a huge difference at high ISOs when LotsaLite or BadLite.

I refer to this situation, taken at ISO 800 with the eMotion 75:

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1683&page=7

There was also light in this situation, but not "Lots", as it is shot in the early morning during sunrise.

Thierry

Quote
There's two types of behavior under different conditions: LotsaLite and BadLite.

Usually LotsaLiteis ok at hi-ISO, because the spectrum is well balanced (sun, flash).

But BadLite is low on blue or spiky and gives strange chroma noise.

Edmund
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Ray

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PhaseOne P25 ISO test. 200/400/800
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2008, 11:49:40 pm »

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I don't think there's single MFD user here interested in a noise comparison against 35mm at this point.

My vote is still - keep this thread about MFD noise only. Thank you.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=196850\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Really! MFDB users pay amazing sums of money for their equipment because they want the best possible image quality, whatever the ISO used.

The fact that 35mm DSLRs seem to do a better job at high ISO (albeit starting off from a lower quality base) must be of concern to users of MFDB.

From reports I've read from Edmund, Phase DB's produce equally good results, if not better results, when underexposed at base ISO instead of the option of using the same shutter speed at a higher ISO.

Canon DSLRs, on the other hand, produce significantly better results at a higher ISO, compared to the same exposure at a lower ISO. That's the key issue here, for me and I would think for anyone interested in image quality above base ISO.

Why aren't DB manufacturers using the same technology that 35mm manufacturers use to boost the analog signal before A/D conversion? My guess is, because the CMOS sensor makes this possible and most (if not all) DBs are CCD.
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eronald

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PhaseOne P25 ISO test. 200/400/800
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2008, 04:45:37 am »

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Really! MFDB users pay amazing sums of money for their equipment because they want the best possible image quality, whatever the ISO used.

The fact that 35mm DSLRs seem to do a better job at high ISO (albeit starting off from a lower quality base) must be of concern to users of MFDB.

From reports I've read from Edmund, Phase DB's produce equally good results, if not better results, when underexposed at base ISO instead of the option of using the same shutter speed at a higher ISO.

Canon DSLRs, on the other hand, produce significantly better results at a higher ISO, compared to the same exposure at a lower ISO. That's the key issue here, for me and I would think for anyone interested in image quality above base ISO.

Why aren't DB manufacturers using the same technology that 35mm manufacturers use to boost the analog signal before A/D conversion? My guess is, because the CMOS sensor makes this possible and most (if not all) DBs are CCD.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=196940\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

My impression is that the actual sensor used are pretty good with respect to noise at high ISO and should yield good images when scaled down a bit, due to their large number of pixels. However, the camera makers seem to be using chips which are out of spec (cheaper), and correcting this by software, but the software corrections don't work well at high-iso.

Edmund
« Last Edit: May 21, 2008, 04:45:50 am by eronald »
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woof75

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PhaseOne P25 ISO test. 200/400/800
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2008, 08:07:29 am »

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Really! MFDB users pay amazing sums of money for their equipment because they want the best possible image quality, whatever the ISO used.

The fact that 35mm DSLRs seem to do a better job at high ISO (albeit starting off from a lower quality base) must be of concern to users of MFDB.

From reports I've read from Edmund, Phase DB's produce equally good results, if not better results, when underexposed at base ISO instead of the option of using the same shutter speed at a higher ISO.

Canon DSLRs, on the other hand, produce significantly better results at a higher ISO, compared to the same exposure at a lower ISO. That's the key issue here, for me and I would think for anyone interested in image quality above base ISO.

Why aren't DB manufacturers using the same technology that 35mm manufacturers use to boost the analog signal before A/D conversion? My guess is, because the CMOS sensor makes this possible and most (if not all) DBs are CCD.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=196940\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Please don't feed the troll's.
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amsp

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PhaseOne P25 ISO test. 200/400/800
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2008, 08:16:40 am »

Here is the same iso800 image with Neat Image noise removal applied...

[attachment=6679:attachment]
« Last Edit: May 21, 2008, 09:23:05 am by amsp »
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woof75

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PhaseOne P25 ISO test. 200/400/800
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2008, 09:43:37 am »

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Here is the same iso800 image with Neat Image noise removal applied...

[attachment=6679:attachment]
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 I prefer it with a bit of noise I think. I always add noise to files anyway.
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amsp

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PhaseOne P25 ISO test. 200/400/800
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2008, 10:41:33 am »

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I prefer it with a bit of noise I think. I always add noise to files anyway.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=197012\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yeah, I sometimes remove the digital noise if I think it's ugly and then add fake film grain. It both hides the noise reduction and adds more pleasant grain.
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Panopeeper

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PhaseOne P25 ISO test. 200/400/800
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2008, 11:55:06 am »

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My impression is that the actual sensor used are pretty good with respect to noise at high ISO
This can not be stated so generally. For example the Sinar eM22 has only one ISO, which is I guess about 40; everything else is software.
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Gabor

Hägar the horrible

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PhaseOne P25 ISO test. 200/400/800
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2008, 12:40:09 pm »

Thanks for the test. Please are you talking ISO or are you talking exposure? Its a significant difference. Do you expose to the right or do you let the meter decide how you expose.
ISO is a standart for film/sensor sensitivity. Using the "expose to the right" technique would eventually result in an overexposure of the sensor or in other words by ISO standart, you are using a lower speed than what your back tells you.

It is also difficult to judge correctly on a downscaled image and as has been said its a good light shot. You can certainly print it to A3, would it look different from an image taken with a APS camera? Probably not!
Please keep going with your testing, I am not yet confinced that MF backs are able to deliver the image quality of a top notch APS camera at high ISO
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Snook

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PhaseOne P25 ISO test. 200/400/800
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2008, 01:42:13 pm »

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This can not be stated so generally. For example the Sinar eM22 has only one ISO, which is I guess about 40; everything else is software.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=197037\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Woof, that is really nice looking..
I will have to go back through the thread to see but I think your camera was the P25 non+ series, correct?
I would never expect that at 800.
I have a P30 and it is suppose to be even better at higher iso/asa than the P20 or P25, as far as I have read.
Looks good
Snook
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woof75

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PhaseOne P25 ISO test. 200/400/800
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2008, 01:55:13 pm »

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Woof, that is really nice looking..
I will have to go back through the thread to see but I think your camera was the P25 non+ series, correct?
I would never expect that at 800.
I have a P30 and it is suppose to be even better at higher iso/asa than the P20 or P25, as far as I have read.
Looks good
Snook
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It's actually asmp's test.
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amsp

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PhaseOne P25 ISO test. 200/400/800
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2008, 02:12:21 pm »

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Thanks for the test. Please are you talking ISO or are you talking exposure? Its a significant difference. Do you expose to the right or do you let the meter decide how you expose.
ISO is a standart for film/sensor sensitivity. Using the "expose to the right" technique would eventually result in an overexposure of the sensor or in other words by ISO standart, you are using a lower speed than what your back tells you.

It is also difficult to judge correctly on a downscaled image and as has been said its a good light shot. You can certainly print it to A3, would it look different from an image taken with a APS camera? Probably not!
Please keep going with your testing, I am not yet confinced that MF backs are able to deliver the image quality of a top notch APS camera at high ISO
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=197048\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No offense, but I'm not even remotely interested in convincing you of anything. This post is a nudge to DB owners, who have been afraid to shoot at anything but iso100 in the past, to go try it themselves. If you can't judge from a 50% of a 20MP image that's your problem. And if you think these images would print the same as an APS sensor at A3 you are being quite ridiculous and obviously have no real experience on the matter. For all you pixel-peepers and whiners, if you are not happy with this test go do your own, it's that simple. Thank you.
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TMARK

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PhaseOne P25 ISO test. 200/400/800
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2008, 02:22:07 pm »

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No offense, but I'm not even remotely interested in convincing you of anything. This post is a nudge to DB owners, who have been afraid to shoot at anything but iso100 in the past, to go try it themselves. If you can't judge from a 50% of a 20MP image that's your problem. And if you think these images would print the same as an APS sensor at A3 you are being quite ridiculous and obviously have no real experience on the matter. For all you pixel-peepers and whiners, if you are not happy with this test go do your own, it's that simple. Thank you.
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Word.
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Hägar the horrible

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PhaseOne P25 ISO test. 200/400/800
« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2008, 02:59:42 pm »

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No offense, but I'm not even remotely interested in convincing you of anything. This post is a nudge to DB owners, who have been afraid to shoot at anything but iso100 in the past, to go try it themselves. If you can't judge from a 50% of a 20MP image that's your problem. And if you think these images would print the same as an APS sensor at A3 you are being quite ridiculous and obviously have no real experience on the matter. For all you pixel-peepers and whiners, if you are not happy with this test go do your own, it's that simple. Thank you.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=197075\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Come on! I made the test some time ago with the P30. A 5D had the better IQ at iso 800 than the DB. The + is certainly better though.
And sorry I dont see why you name your thread a test and show us a downscaled image, but then again expect to read comments about the full size image quality.

I would be far more appropriate to answer to questions than to ride personal attack against posters. Have fun
« Last Edit: May 21, 2008, 03:00:12 pm by Hägar the horrible »
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samuel_js

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PhaseOne P25 ISO test. 200/400/800
« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2008, 03:21:02 pm »

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Come on! I made the test some time ago with the P30. A 5D had the better IQ at iso 800 than the DB. The + is certainly better though.
And sorry I dont see why you name your thread a test and show us a downscaled image, but then again expect to read comments about the full size image quality.

I would be far more appropriate to answer to questions than to ride personal attack against posters. Have fun
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=197080\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
At least his showing images. You've got nothing more than words...
It would be nice to see your tests...
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jjj

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PhaseOne P25 ISO test. 200/400/800
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2008, 03:36:11 pm »

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Yeah, I sometimes remove the digital noise if I think it's ugly and then add fake film grain. It both hides the noise reduction and adds more pleasant grain.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=197025\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I do much the same. But I also tend to add a touch of grain as I'm not so keen on digital's smooth video look.
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TMARK

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PhaseOne P25 ISO test. 200/400/800
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2008, 03:43:59 pm »

Mr. Horrible,

I'd like to see your test images as well not because I don't believe you but because IQ is subjective.  Some people like sterile, (over) saturated images, some like color accuracy, some people hate colour noise.  I can't stand color noise but love luminance noise on a high pixel image, kinda like pointalism in the OOF areas, and I require good color.  The main advantage of a DB is in color.  Even pushed images at 1600 on a DB have much better colour accuracy than any DSLR.  Any colour noise cleans right up with a little colour NR, leaving the luminance noise to add to acutance. I know the 5D well and can say that 800 is great noise wise, but colorwise is just OK.  This is my experience, I'd like to see your pics to see what you are seeing.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2008, 03:45:10 pm by TMARK »
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amsp

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PhaseOne P25 ISO test. 200/400/800
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2008, 03:54:22 pm »

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Come on! I made the test some time ago with the P30. A 5D had the better IQ at iso 800 than the DB. The + is certainly better though.
And sorry I dont see why you name your thread a test and show us a downscaled image, but then again expect to read comments about the full size image quality.

I would be far more appropriate to answer to questions than to ride personal attack against posters. Have fun
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=197080\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
*Yawn* This NOT a DB vs. X thread. Why is that so hard for you to understand? This is just a couple shots to show ppl that DBs aren't necessarily as bad as you might think. I don't care if this test is not up to your standards, am I being clear enough? The fact that a couple of DB owners have already expressed their surprise at the results tell me that my intention with this post got through. But feel free to go start your own P30 vs. 5D thread, just stop posting your nonsense on mine.
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Hägar the horrible

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PhaseOne P25 ISO test. 200/400/800
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2008, 05:27:07 pm »

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*Yawn* This NOT a DB vs. X thread. Why is that so hard for you to understand? This is just a couple shots to show ppl that DBs aren't necessarily as bad as you might think. I don't care if this test is not up to your standards, am I being clear enough? The fact that a couple of DB owners have already expressed their surprise at the results tell me that my intention with this post got through. But feel free to go start your own P30 vs. 5D thread, just stop posting your nonsense on mine.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=197095\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes I know, I did not bring in the 40d or whatever, I just shared my experience in response to your complaint.
Its about high ISO, and the question was if the light were metered acording to ISO specs or if you simply exposed to the right.
I dont understand what so offending about this question. As you name your pics a test, it may be allowed to ask, otherwise it could give the impression that you want to proof something which isnt there.
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EricWHiss

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PhaseOne P25 ISO test. 200/400/800
« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2008, 01:42:00 am »

Here's a shot from this afternoon with the Rollei 6008 / p20  handheld at ISO 800 forget the shutter but around 1/125.  I made no adjustments to the file other than changing the color noise to 71 and the luminace nose slider to 6 (defaults are 58 and 25) in C1 4.1

Honestly I am really surprised!   I had been holding off from even ISO 200 before seeing this post, and getting blurry images because I was afraid to bump the ISO.
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