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Author Topic: COMMERCIAL DAY RATES ???  (Read 13123 times)

Snook

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COMMERCIAL DAY RATES ???
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2008, 05:21:05 pm »

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If you work from 9 am to 10 pm that's 13 hours. Here in sweden the day rate is 8 hours. So what you got paid is like 39 hours here. Almost 5 days. So it's almost the same because here a normal 8 hour day rate could be about $1300. About 162 dollar per hour including 25% taxes.
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That's a tough one for me...
I charge my client for the day but if we go over an hour or so, which happens often, "We" here would not charge an extra hour.. especially with a regular year round client..
It's really hard where to draw the line but i would feel like I was taking advantage of a client charging for the hour extra when they are paying a day rate.
In South America there is no such thing as 12  hours...:+}
It is when we finish we finish. Not the best work ethics but that is the way it is... They have a "take it or leave it" kind of attitude here.
Just last year they came up with a type of Grip Union here that protects the Movie and Commercial people here, Otherwise they use to work 24/7 practically and that is no joke. but it will be a long while if never before they have those "laws" for Photography shoots!
Snook
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godtfred

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« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2008, 06:35:11 pm »

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That's a tough one for me...
I charge my client for the day but if we go over an hour or so, which happens often, "We" here would not charge an extra hour.. especially with a regular year round client..
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The very same goes in Norway, in particular for returning clients where you have built up a relationship of "giving and taking".

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If you work from 9 am to 10 pm that's 13 hours. Here in sweden the day rate is 8 hours. So what you got paid is like 39 hours here. Almost 5 days. So it's almost the same because here a normal 8 hour day rate could be about $1300. About 162 dollar per hour including 25% taxes.
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I get a different result than about 162 pr. hour... If my math skills are not as poor as my photography skills

39/10700 = $274 per hour for the job, about half of that is equipment and rental costs, the rest is net before taxes. The hourly charge would be $342,5 with sales tax of 25 % included.
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mcfoto

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« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2008, 06:44:07 pm »

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As an emerging photographer I'm at the stage where I'm feeling my way around the negotiation table with potential clients.

In a previous issue of Capture (an Australian Pro-Photography Magazine) a standard industry commercial day rate was quoted/estimated at around $2700-$3600 a day plus expenses. (this was based on research from working photographers in the U.S. I believe)

After making my own queries (checking with local talent) here in Perth the rate is fairly dismal some where around the $2200-$2500 a day + expenses.

Mind you Perth is a small town most of the commercial/advertising campaigns are shot in Sydney & Melbourne  

I spoke with one of the directors at the acmp and he mentioned an interesting story of how 3 different photographers quoted $20,000 - $36,000 & $106,000 for the same 3 day job.

Guess who the client went with ??

That's right the $106,000 quote   

What I've gleaned from this is to ask/work with the proposed budget or quote higher than the going rate leaving room for negotiation with the client.

I also believe your quote will reflect your perceived value so not being afraid to be bold in your negotiations, of course taking into account your expenses, overheads, standard/quality of work etc. 

I know there are many other things I have not touched on in this brief summary but I'd love to hear from others what/how they factor their quotes for advertising, beauty & commercial campaigns

 
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Hi
Any idea what the job was?
Denis
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Denis Montalbetti
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sergio

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« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2008, 07:25:45 pm »

As for overhours I never have my client sitting on a cab meter, but I do try to politely reason with my client to end the shoot at max. 12 hrs. A good argument is that tired people don't make quality work, which is what one is hired for.
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elitegroup

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COMMERCIAL DAY RATES ???
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2008, 04:10:38 am »

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Hi
Any idea what the job was?
Denis
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Sorry Denis, in hindsight I should have asked what the job was  
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samuel_js

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« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2008, 06:40:39 am »

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The very same goes in Norway, in particular for returning clients where you have built up a relationship of "giving and taking".
I get a different result than about 162 pr. hour... If my math skills are not as poor as my photography skills
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Mike Louw

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« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2008, 08:19:18 am »

For a UK perspective, see the "Fees Special" newsletter here: http://www.redeye.org.uk/redeye/archive_news.asp
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geesbert

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« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2008, 08:32:22 am »

i think my best advice is to split the quote up in as many singular items as possible. quote for everything reasonably. i charge for my own equipment or usage of my studio about 75% of what the local rent prices are, which still is enough to make some money just by using my own stuff. my creative fee per day is rather low with about €1300 - 1800, depending on the client, that includes editorial use.  commercial usage is somewhere between 0,6x to 1,8x the creatve fee, roughly followig the BFF (a german association of photographers) guidelines.
 
my creative fee is not negotiable once quoted, all the other tids and bits have room for leverage, so i am able to reduce the total quote without ridiculing my first one.

by having a rather lowerish creative fee i do not look expensive, although i am usually more expensive than my competition, but my final income still makes me happy.
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Kirk Gittings

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« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2008, 09:58:45 am »

It somewhat depends on what you mean by "emerging photographer". To me that means someone with some talent maybe but with limited experience and portfolio. If that is true, one is unlikely to be able to charge the going rate in an established commercial market. The going rate is not like a minimum wage, but the average rate for established photographers. I live in a small market but do allot of work for clients in big markets. So I have different rates depending on what market the client is coming from. From years of experience I know a client from Chicago expects to pay allot more than a local client and I set my rates accordingly. As a rule of thumb, I want my prices to be seem ridiculously expensive for about 1/3 of the serious inquiries.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2008, 10:00:27 am by Kirk Gittings »
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paulmoorestudio

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« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2008, 10:02:11 am »

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I was under the impression (at least a decade and a half ago when I was getting paid to shoot), photographers charged for rights and usage of images, not "day rate". Maybe that's something old or just something that came about in the US. Any APA or ASMP members around that can comment and get me up to speed in the 21 century?
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I would agree with this, being a 20+year member of APA, the term "day rate" should be stricken
from photographers vocabulary. Estimate how many days it will take to shoot and give a creative fee, but do not break it down and describe it as a "day rate". You should have already worked out what you need to survive based on your overhead.. so you know what your break-even "daily fee" has to be or else it is charity work or has some other value to you, but those are your numbers, price by the job, not by your time..
I did a shoot once and we were done by 2 in the afternoon.. the shoot was over and the client enquired about it being so fast.. I told them that it took me 20 years to develope my skills and   shoot the way I did, otherwise we would have to work til 7pm. They were happy with that and left.  Believe me I have spent way too many nights working "until it was finished".
 I price all commercial jobs on usage rights and gauge the image value to the client.
Usually the usage will determine the value of the photograph.. General Motors national campaign vs the local chain of bike shops regional newspaper ads and website..
magazine work is different and if you want editorial you have to play along with that.  It has value to me so I weigh it differently than a commercial shoot.  I feel that in this age of increased ease to produce pictures and the devaluation of the images we create it is essential to get a handle on the value of the work, both for the client and yourself. It use to bother me being undercut by someone who undersells the shoot, and worse were the marketing managers who couldn't see the visual difference and went for the lower bottom line.. The reason you see the job going to the highest bidder is someone is pushing for a particular photographer and they get their way... and they knew the real value of the shoot and had that budgeted.  If you want to estimate with the big boys and girls on a national/international shoot then you had better do your homework and price for everything..a good artbuyer can look over an estimate and see in a moment that you are out of your depth, they will not risk a shoot with you even if the numbers are lower and cheaper for the client.
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marc gerritsen

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« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2008, 08:03:32 pm »

I would actually like to know how many days a months you all work.
Here in Asia I have about 15 to 20 projects a month some half days and some full days.
I normally charge here by the photo as I have in house post production and deliver a finished product. Whenever I shoot people or products (about 10% of my work) I tend to charge by day both for shooting and post-production. Usualy fees are much lower than Eur or US, but because of volume I think I do ok.
m*
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Dustbak

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« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2008, 02:01:23 am »

I have fluctuating seasons. In the busy period I shoot 5 times a week days most of the time. These periods are February-April and September-November. Days are anywhere in between a couple of hours up to 12hours.

In between these periods I have 1 to 2 days of shooting per week where I also sometimes have a couple of weeks  in which I don't work for clients. I always plan to shoot stuff for myself but most of the time I find myself doing work in the house or fixing stuff for my studio, etc..
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marc gerritsen

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« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2008, 02:38:06 am »

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I have fluctuating seasons. In the busy period I shoot 5 times a week days most of the time. These periods are February-April and September-November. Days are anywhere in between a couple of hours up to 12hours.

In between these periods I have 1 to 2 days of shooting per week where I also sometimes have a couple of weeks  in which I don't work for clients. I always plan to shoot stuff for myself but most of the time I find myself doing work in the house or fixing stuff for my studio, etc..
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No down time here, each year 25% busier than the last
I always hope to have time to shoot for myself...........but then someone calls me
What is strange here as well is that when I look ahead in my diary there are hardly any bookings
as everyone calls up and wants me tomorrow.
m*
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Dustbak

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« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2008, 03:19:41 am »

That is the same over here. I have most of my work from the same clients. Some book time ahead at the days they know they will be needing it (the ones that are noticing I am saying no more often ) but many call and want to have me there asap.

I do get busier every year, now to the point where I am thinking about where to go next. Do I want to do more hours of the same kind of work, do I want less but more high profile or do I want to continue in the same manner?

The easiest thing probably would be to continue like this but I am starting to feel like I am in need of doing more sophisticated stuff.

The more relaxed period is excellent to prepare, think over what I am doing and what I want to do, etc... The busy season more than makes up for it.

It would be nice if I could fill the more quiet period with free work or other work. Which I now concentrate on developing.

I notice I really need this period. I could not do catalogue & productshots year round as I do during the season.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2008, 03:39:28 am by Dustbak »
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godtfred

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« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2008, 05:18:01 am »

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I have fluctuating seasons. In the busy period I shoot 5 times a week days most of the time. These periods are February-April and September-November. Days are anywhere in between a couple of hours up to 12hours.

In between these periods I have 1 to 2 days of shooting per week where I also sometimes have a couple of weeks  in which I don't work for clients. I always plan to shoot stuff for myself but most of the time I find myself doing work in the house or fixing stuff for my studio, etc..
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+1 but somehow the weekends also seem to disappear during busy months...

In slow months, I could do lots of non-commercial stuff for a good price, but choose not to as I really do not need it nor think it works with the "personal brand".
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Kirk Gittings

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« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2008, 09:47:10 am »

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I would actually like to know how many days a months you all work.
Here in Asia I have about 15 to 20 projects a month some half days and some full days.
I normally charge here by the photo as I have in house post production and deliver a finished product. Whenever I shoot people or products (about 10% of my work) I tend to charge by day both for shooting and post-production. Usualy fees are much lower than Eur or US, but because of volume I think I do ok.
m*
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Marc, I prefer to not shoot back to back days-just getting old I guess, which limits me to two or three days a week shooting, but when you add to that a couple of days per shooting day for file processing, a day for scouting another day for paperwork etc., you end up with about 6 days a week, averaging 10 hours a day. That is the routine for my busy season which is about 8 months of the year.
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Leonardo Barreto

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« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2008, 10:50:26 am »

To be frank, it is my wife that handles the business part of my work"... I WANT A WIFE LIKE THAT ... LOL




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Right! Graham, please stay there. Do not come over here with these kind of fees please

Point is that it is very difficult to mention a day rate for someone that is working at another location and probably in another type of work as well.

I alread found pretty big differences between Belgium, The Netherlands, Germany and the UK and these are countries that aren't even that far apart. Even differences in between acceptance levels in provinces within these countries.

Someone mentioned, the importance of explaining what the level and kind of service they can expect from you. I guess that is where I agree.

To be frank, it is my wife that handles the business part of my work because she is really good at that. She can be brutally direct and where I might back down because I just want to do the work she will get the maximum out of the assignment while still being loved and accepted by the clients. Also by exactly mentioning what the clients will get and what they have to pay for she prevents aggravation and ensures a continous stream of assignments from the same companies. Over the years we have stripped everything into numbers where clients can start very cheap and add as much service as the want at a price.

The times we cannot do that I charge a flat hourly fee of 75euros/hour plus expenses (appr. 115USD/Hour). Even those rates cannot just be used by anyone doing something, I find some lines of work these rates are easily accepted while in other parts of the market they can never hire you and rates are below 50euro/hour.   

Anyway, a long story to tell you I can't tell you that much
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Dustbak

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« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2008, 11:16:58 am »

Yes, I am a very fortunate & happy man

No kidding, it is a very good combination. It allows her to be very frank, direct and sometimes firm where I need to be able to remain on a good foot to be able to continue to work with clients.

She is also a pitbull in collecting outstanding bills. In the Netherlands companies have one of the worst payment policies in Europe according studies. My biggest client makes it a sport to wait as long as possible with paying (they always do pay). I am kept in the dark about these things otherwise I just might explode during a shoot with them which is un-productive I have been told.

Next to all that, did I mention she can style garments in a way that most other stylists cannot? We actually form a very good team together. We found it a very good way to be able to spend time together as well as doing something we both like.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2008, 11:28:03 am by Dustbak »
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thsinar

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« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2008, 11:21:34 am »

I can tell you that in Asia they have almost all a wife like that!

 

Thierry

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To be frank, it is my wife that handles the business part of my work"... I WANT A WIFE LIKE THAT ... LOL
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Dustbak

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« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2008, 11:24:01 am »

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I can tell you that in Asia they have almost all a wife like that!

biggrin.gif

Thierry

« Last Edit: May 21, 2008, 11:25:40 am by Dustbak »
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