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Author Topic: Sundry Lightroom questions  (Read 7298 times)

Mike Arst

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Sundry Lightroom questions
« on: May 17, 2008, 03:47:14 pm »

Lightroom questions...

1) I know this is heretical :) but suppose a person were using some other program for digital-asset-management purposes, rather than Lightroom. All DAM programs have a way of sending individual image to sundry raw converters (or to Photoshop). I don't know if there's something obvious in the Lightroom 1.x user interface staring me in the face, and I'm just missing it, but is there a way to open a single image in Lightroom and process it there -- without having to go through the entire Import process? "Open..." in Lightroom seems to pertain only to catalogues and there doesn't seem to be a way of "sending to..." from another program, with Lightroom being the destination.

2) The import process has improved since version 1.0 but it still strikes me as inefficient, requiring more commands should be necessary. Is there a way to create a new Collection, and then import _directly_ into that collection -- as opposed to importing and then having to drag the just-imported photos into the newly created collection? It just seems so inefficient. (Since I never import and then drag photos into multiple collections, I can't imagine what benefit there is from the two-step operation.)

3) I have one shot that remains "stuck" in the PreviousImport collection. My experience has been that once just-imported shots are moved into a collection, they are no longer in PreviousImport at the time of the _next_ import. But the one photo just will not move from there.

Whoa, wait. I just opened Lightroom again and now there are *13* images in PreviousImport -- images that have _already_ been moved into another collection. I have no idea why they are now showing up in PreviousImport. How do I get these things _out_ of that folder and keep them out of it when they've already been moved?

Thanks in advance for advice about these things...
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Schewe

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« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2008, 04:07:09 pm »

1) Well, on Mac, drag and drop onto the app icon in the dock...not sure D&D is working in Win.

2) You realize that "Collections" don't actually exist, right? They are virtual collections of images. The files only actually exist in Folders...and you should be able to import into folders...
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Wayne Fox

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« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2008, 04:50:04 pm »

"Last import" might be described as a "special" collection. It contains no images, you cannot move images "from" it,  it is simply a reference to the last images that were imported.  It remains until you import again.

You can't "move" them from there into a collection.  If you drag an image from the last import into a collection, it is still referenced in the last import and now in the collection you dragged them to, but they don't exist in either location.   The Images themselves and access to them is through the Folders tab.  I think it is important to use a good naming scheme for the actual folders of images on your hard drive ... this makes LR much easier to navigate.

I believe the main use of a collection is a mechanism  to group images from various folders together.  As mentioned they are "virtual" ... images do not exist in a collection, simply a group of pointers to the images in their actual location.  There are other ways to work with groups of images, such as ratings and keywords.  Personally I use that method and rarely use collections.
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Mike Arst

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« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2008, 07:38:57 pm »

Quote
1) Well, on Mac, drag and drop onto the app icon in the dock...not sure D&D is working in Win.

2) You realize that "Collections" don't actually exist, right? They are virtual collections of images. The files only actually exist in Folders...and you should be able to import into folders...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=196284\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, I understand that collections aren't "physical" folders, but virtual ones.

Drag and drop works within Win Explorer. The import dialog box opens in Lightroom. I wonder if this "translates" into the ability to "send to..." from some other program. I'll have to check with its authors.

Thanks.
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Schewe

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« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2008, 07:45:28 pm »

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Yes, I understand that collections aren't "physical" folders, but virtual ones.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=196300\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Well, you say that but I'm not sure you do...collections aren't virtual folders, they are virtual groups and it's an important distinction because collections can span folders and even volumes. The collections can be originals or even virtual copies that can live with their own settings and metadata.

So, the import has to happen into an actual folder or volume...no way around that. But at the moment there's no way to import a selection of images directly into a collection.
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Mike Arst

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« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2008, 10:28:26 pm »

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Well, you say that but I'm not sure you do...collections aren't virtual folders, they are virtual groups and it's an important distinction because collections can span folders and even volumes.
Well, I can certainly understand that, mind-reading being the difficult thing that it is. :) But strange but true, somehow I do manage to understand even the bit about virtual groups. (To ensure semantic correctness, from now on I'll call them "containers" or "objects" or "virtual something-or-others-that-aren't-folders".)

It's too bad Lightroom as raw converter, and Lightroom as DAM can't be separated in some way that permits opening an image and converting it entirely outside the import process. Of course the program wasn't designed to have the two kinds of functionality be separated. But at times it would be useful even so. Use it in fashion "A" or fashion "B" or fashion "A+B" as needed. The DAM part and the "collection" concept have needed work UI-wise from the start and are better fleshed-out in DAM-specific programs. I hope version 2.0 is improved in the UI dept....

No denying LR's great raw-conversion features -- too numerous to mention. Which is why I hope it's possible to have it work in an efficient way with other asset-management programs.
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Schewe

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« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2008, 10:39:23 pm »

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It's too bad Lightroom as raw converter, and Lightroom as DAM can't be separated in some way that permits opening an image and converting it entirely outside the import process.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=196320\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


That would be called Camera Raw 4 in Bridge CS3...it's already there (and even has a point curve editor-although not a TAT tool).
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Ken Bennett

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« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2008, 09:08:17 pm »

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It's too bad Lightroom as raw converter, and Lightroom as DAM can't be separated in some way


But that's the entire functionality of Lightroom in a single sentence.

It's also why I use Camera RAW rather than Lightroom. My only wish for Camera RAW concerns the saved processing commands. Right now they are all on their own tab -- a PITA for efficient workflow. Lightroom does a better job of this. If I could save shortcuts as buttons on the page where they are used, that would be much better. (So, sharpening shortcuts on the Details tab, Processing shortcuts on the Processing tab, that sort of thing.)
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Mike Arst

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« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2008, 09:28:30 pm »

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But that's the entire functionality of Lightroom in a single sentence.
Yep, so it is. But just in the last day or so I learned some things about ACR that I hadn't known because I haven't used it for many months -- not since Lightroom came out. I hadn't realized that ACR as it ships with CS3 now has features that are nearly identical to Lightroom's. I had stopped using it because it seemed so underpowered as a raw converter compared with Lightroom. Well, not any longer. Now all I need is more RAM (there's no way I am going to try running CS3 with my present setup...I'm sure it requires more RAM than I have at the moment -- a mere 1 GB).

After looking over several "DAM" programs I'm not so sure I want to go that route after all. Some of these user interfaces are, as they say in New York, strictly from hunger. On the other hand, someone I know who uses Bridge and ACR says that in its present incarnation, Bridge is a good-enough "DAM" for him. And after finding screen-shots of CS3's Bridge on the web, it struck me that its UI has improved quite a bit (I hated it before...now, maybe I'll find it tolerable).

I suppose ACR wouldn't have that handy clone-out-your-dust-spots-on-a-gazillion-imges-at-a-time tool, and if not, oh well...
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Schewe

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« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2008, 10:06:51 pm »

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I suppose ACR wouldn't have that handy clone-out-your-dust-spots-on-a-gazillion-imges-at-a-time tool, and if not, oh well...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=196464\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Sure it does...all of the tools from Lightroom 1.4 and Camera Raw 4.x are essentially the same...CR even has a point curve editor that Lightroom lacks. Course, Camera Raw doesn't have the TAT tool...
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Mike Arst

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« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2008, 01:15:42 am »

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Sure it does...all of the tools from Lightroom 1.4 and Camera Raw 4.x are essentially the same...CR even has a point curve editor that Lightroom lacks.
Cool, good to know.

As useful as the targeted adjustments might be, I can live without 'em...
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dchew

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« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2008, 07:09:09 pm »

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On the other hand, someone I know who uses Bridge and ACR says that in its present incarnation, Bridge is a good-enough "DAM" for him. And after finding screen-shots of CS3's Bridge on the web, it struck me that its UI has improved quite a bit (I hated it before...now, maybe I'll find it tolerable).

Perhaps that's true for some, but the inherent differences between a database (LR) and a browser (BR) is very important for my workflow.  Seeing archived images that are not available, creating virtual copies and the robust ability to create a variety of permanent "collections" are just a few examples.

Dave Chew
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Mike Arst

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« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2008, 03:11:51 am »

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Seeing archived images that are not available
That would certainly matter to me.
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roberte

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« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2008, 05:07:44 am »

Hi Mike,

Try Auto Import which monitors a folder and, well, auto imports. It will avoid the import dialog but that is not what it is intended for. Neverthess make this hot folder a part of your workflow, maybe point it where you move your selects.

It is very simple to drag and drop on either platform into Lightroom. This is a feature I really like! In Capture One you see and load all images in the target folder. For high volume jobs I do an initial sort and rate in Photo Mechanic because of its unparralled speed. I select all rated image then drag onto Lightroom. Lightroom will only build thumbnails and previews for the images you want to import.

Don't be ashamed of using other apps for DAM. Lightroom is still immature in that department and will not be suitable for many users. That drag and drop feature still works from iView, etc. I use Lightroom as a RAW converter and consider its Catalogs disposable after saving the settings into the DNG.

-- Robert.
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Mike Arst

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« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2008, 02:27:55 pm »

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I do an initial sort and rate in Photo Mechanic because of its unparralled speed. I select all rated image then drag onto Lightroom. Lightroom will only build thumbnails and previews for the images you want to import.
Thanks for reminding me about Photo Mechanic. I've been trying demo versions of DAM programs and had forgotten about that one. You're right that it's very quick. I haven't yet learned whether it can display information about -- or show search results for -- previously imported images stored on an external hard drive or DVD that's offline at the time of the search. I hope so.

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I use Lightroom as a RAW converter and consider its Catalogs disposable after saving the settings into the DNG.
If I do find another DAM program that I like -- PM is at the top of the list so far -- I will probably also start considering Lightroom's catalogs disposable...unless LR v.2 has much improved DAM features.
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Ken Bennett

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« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2008, 05:38:19 pm »

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Thanks for reminding me about Photo Mechanic. I've been trying demo versions of DAM programs and had forgotten about that one. You're right that it's very quick. I haven't yet learned whether it can display information about -- or show search results for -- previously imported images stored on an external hard drive or DVD that's offline at the time of the search. I hope so.


No, Photo Mechanic is not (yet) a DAM program, just a browser. But it's a terrific browser -- the best out there for speed of workflow, IMHO.

The developer has been promising a full-fledged DAM for some time now, and it may (may) be released with version 5.
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Mike Arst

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« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2008, 02:09:39 am »

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The developer has been promising a full-fledged DAM for some time now, and it may (may) be released with version 5.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=198398\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It's lightning-fast, no question.

I've been noticing some recent requests on the company's web site -- that the program stop writing data into the RAW files it imports. I suppose this is possible if you have it write only XMP sidecar files -- something I didn't set up when I tried an "ingest" operation with the demo version. It is a bit disconcerting seeing the modification dates and times changed to "now" -- but I suppose it's only to be expected when the program updates IPTC data when it imports files. (I can get around this by making a simple Perl, or even 4NT, script to "touch" the files based on their creation date/time -- all praise to ExifTool. The only problem is that the script would have to be run every time the IPTC info is updated within PM...unless it has a "don't modify date/time" option that I haven't spotted yet.)

One of the DAM programs that was recommended to me recently is IDImager, which isn't nearly as fast. Whew, what a complex UI that thing has. It'd take me a long time to "get" it. If Photo Mechanic were to evolve into a real DAM program and yet hang onto its uncluttered, fairly straightforward UI -- and high speed of creating and sorting thumbnails -- that would be one mighty fine development (as it were).
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